Vampire Rework

Suggest new roles or changes to current roles for the game here.

Should this rework be made into its own role?

Yes
1
17%
No
3
50%
Other (please explain)
1
17%
The concept should be scrapped (please explain)
1
17%
 
Total votes : 6

Re: Vampire Rework

Postby Brilliand » Sat May 01, 2021 1:32 am

How does this role win against a goldfish town?

Let's say the game is 14 townies vs. 1 vampire, and the townies are all AFK. The vampire uses its 3 drainings, then uses its one big attack... then what? There are 8 undrained townies left alive, and all the vampire has left is one charge of draining, which it can't use. Even worse, what happens if every drained player claims drained and promptly gets lynched for it? After four players are drained+lynched, the vampire has lost all ability to act.

'Course, both version of Vampire have a similar problem with the draw timer, but that version of the problem is much more narrow.
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Re: Vampire Rework

Postby alex1234321 » Sat May 01, 2021 7:55 am

Brilliand wrote:How does this role win against a goldfish town?

Let's say the game is 14 townies vs. 1 vampire, and the townies are all AFK. The vampire uses its 3 drainings, then uses its one big attack... then what? There are 8 undrained townies left alive, and all the vampire has left is one charge of draining, which it can't use. Even worse, what happens if every drained player claims drained and promptly gets lynched for it? After four players are drained+lynched, the vampire has lost all ability to act.

'Course, both version of Vampire have a similar problem with the draw timer, but that version of the problem is much more narrow.


Don't play All Any.

In all seriousness, maybe make it like Conqueror where opposing factions have to spawn? It's still possible that the only scum dies but Vampire should try to keep the scum alive. In balanced setups, this wouldn't be much of an issue since Town deserves to win any game where Town kills all scum with more than 7 living members.

The drained+lynched problem is intentional. Are you going to lynch three Town members to prevent the Town from doing anything? If that's your strategy, then the Mafia will almost always win. The role gets an average of around 1.2 KPN, and the notification is meant to be the role's biggest downside.

Would you prefer unlimited bites? Keeping the cap on the number of simultaneously drained people at 3. My only issue with this is that it wouldn't punish the Vampire for choosing targets who die as strongly. Maybe it could be forced to wait a night if one of its drained targets dies the previous night or is lynched?
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Re: Vampire Rework

Postby Brilliand » Sat May 01, 2021 12:41 pm

Dracula's Palace already exists; I think any Vampire rework should preserve the viability of that gamemode.

It should be sufficient to let the Vampire perform basic attacks if he isn't allowed to perform a drain for whatever reason.
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Re: Vampire Rework

Postby syjfwbaobfwl » Sat May 01, 2021 1:36 pm

vampires should be banned even from all any, having them spawning randomly its a fking pain in the ass for everyone
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Re: Vampire Rework

Postby alex1234321 » Sat May 01, 2021 1:48 pm

Brilliand wrote:Dracula's Palace already exists; I think any Vampire rework should preserve the viability of that gamemode.

It should be sufficient to let the Vampire perform basic attacks if he isn't allowed to perform a drain for whatever reason.


Drac's Palace is definitely the most popular and exciting gamemode ever! I really like the idea of forcing a win 93% of the time by gamethrowing.

That's a good idea but it does seem strong since it basically turns a failed Vampire into an SK. Something that would give the Vampire 0.5 KPN could work but night number dependence is bad. Maybe the night after the kill everything replenishes but the drained players become undrained? That wouldn't actually be OP since the KPN would be less than 1 until the final kill since the drained people don't die.
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Re: Vampire Rework

Postby Brilliand » Sat May 01, 2021 4:06 pm

alex1234321 wrote:That's a good idea but it does seem strong since it basically turns a failed Vampire into an SK. Something that would give the Vampire 0.5 KPN could work but night number dependence is bad. Maybe the night after the kill everything replenishes but the drained players become undrained? That wouldn't actually be OP since the KPN would be less than 1 until the final kill since the drained people don't die.


Let's not give it less effective KPN than an SK. It still needs to be a threat after it fails.

Give it unlimited drainings, then; that way it can never force a 1v1 like an SK would, forcing it to play out the endgame a little differently than most evil roles do.
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Re: Vampire Rework

Postby alex1234321 » Sat May 01, 2021 5:35 pm

Brilliand wrote:
alex1234321 wrote:That's a good idea but it does seem strong since it basically turns a failed Vampire into an SK. Something that would give the Vampire 0.5 KPN could work but night number dependence is bad. Maybe the night after the kill everything replenishes but the drained players become undrained? That wouldn't actually be OP since the KPN would be less than 1 until the final kill since the drained people don't die.


Let's not give it less effective KPN than an SK. It still needs to be a threat after it fails.

Give it unlimited drainings, then; that way it can never force a 1v1 like an SK would, forcing it to play out the endgame a little differently than most evil roles do.


Why should this get so much more KPN than SK? Half of its attacks are unstoppable and it also gets to roleblock. Do you think the notification would weaken the role that much?
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Re: Vampire Rework

Postby Brilliand » Sat May 01, 2021 10:46 pm

alex1234321 wrote:Why should this get so much more KPN than SK? Half of its attacks are unstoppable and it also gets to roleblock. Do you think the notification would weaken the role that much?


Oh, I'm ignoring the single-use Unstoppable attack now. Yeah, this version's total KP is actually N+2, which is more than the SK. That could be nerfed back down by adding a 1-night cooldown after each successful draining, or by removing the multi-attack and replacing it with another benefit to having enough Drained players (say, if you have 3 Drained players, your night action is a single-target Unstoppable Astral attack).

I'm favoring the former solution, since it makes the role more similar to current Vampire, and also makes it definitely a slower killer than SK (KP=N-1 assuming it uses its big attack optimally, or N-2 if you factor in not getting a 1v1 endgame).
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Re: Vampire Rework

Postby alex1234321 » Sun May 02, 2021 9:59 am

Brilliand wrote:
alex1234321 wrote:Why should this get so much more KPN than SK? Half of its attacks are unstoppable and it also gets to roleblock. Do you think the notification would weaken the role that much?


Oh, I'm ignoring the single-use Unstoppable attack now. Yeah, this version's total KP is actually N+2, which is more than the SK. That could be nerfed back down by adding a 1-night cooldown after each successful draining, or by removing the multi-attack and replacing it with another benefit to having enough Drained players (say, if you have 3 Drained players, your night action is a single-target Unstoppable Astral attack).

I'm favoring the former solution, since it makes the role more similar to current Vampire, and also makes it definitely a slower killer than SK (KP=N-1 assuming it uses its big attack optimally, or N-2 if you factor in not getting a 1v1 endgame).


The KP is actually 2N-2 assuming none of its targets die, which would be very difficult to execute in an actual game. If it's only able to bite every other night, it would be N if no one who is drained dies. Even though it gets unstoppable attacks, the ceiling KPN should still be greater than SK since players would be more willing to kill a player who has been drained of blood. Also I'm not a fan of night number dependence since half the time the player would benefit from the game extending another night and half the time it wouldn't.

For the second solution, the ceiling KP would still be N since it would presumable be able to either drain or kill someone every night. That could make it into an SK-Arso hybrid, which might be interesting. Maybe a slightly stronger reward could be added, but I like the current role's dynamic of forcing the Town to kill one person to save someone else.

It might get complex, but I think my previous suggestion could work. The Vampire bites one player every night and drains them of blood with the same draining mechanics but with only three uses. The Vampire could kill one person for every drained player instead of biting someone, sending them back to three drains. If everyone left is drained of blood, the Vampire wins. Otherwise, everyone who is drained becomes undrained. The ceiling effective KP would be 0.75N + 3 when N is a multiple of 4, which would stay above N until night 12. Compared to the current role, it would be harder to get >1 KPN but less harmful in unbalanced setups or if the Vampire completely fails. The reason why the max would still be 3 drained players is because it simulates a faction with 4 members, which has been shown to be a fair cap for informed minorities in ToS.
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Re: Vampire Rework

Postby Brilliand » Sun May 02, 2021 9:23 pm

alex1234321 wrote:
Brilliand wrote:Yeah, this version's total KP is actually N+2, which is more than the SK.


The KP is actually 2N-2 assuming none of its targets die, which would be very difficult to execute in an actual game.


Oh, I didn't mean remove the cap of 3 concurrent drained players; just the cap of 4 drainings performed total throughout the game.

alex1234321 wrote:It might get complex, but I think my previous suggestion could work. The Vampire bites one player every night and drains them of blood with the same draining mechanics but with only three uses. The Vampire could kill one person for every drained player instead of biting someone, sending them back to three drains. If everyone left is drained of blood, the Vampire wins. Otherwise, everyone who is drained becomes undrained. The ceiling effective KP would be 0.75N + 3 when N is a multiple of 4, which would stay above N until night 12. Compared to the current role, it would be harder to get >1 KPN but less harmful in unbalanced setups or if the Vampire completely fails. The reason why the max would still be 3 drained players is because it simulates a faction with 4 members, which has been shown to be a fair cap for informed minorities in ToS.


Let's see if I understand this right...

The vampire has to follow a pattern of drain-drain-drain-kill. When the vampire performs the "kill", all the drained players become undrained; however, if that "all the drained players" is everyone left alive, then the Vampire immediately wins, and the other players get the same outcome they would get if it was a draw with a Jester win.

So effectively the Vampire gets unlimited drainings AND unlimited mass unstoppable attacks, but they interact in a way that limits the usefulness of both to reasonable levels. I like that solution.
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