Charmer (Town Protective)

Suggest new roles or changes to current roles for the game here.

How is it?

Great as is!
6
55%
Okay but needs some work (explain please)
2
18%
Not so good, needs a lot of work (explain please)
1
9%
Terrible, scrap the idea (explain please)
2
18%
 
Total votes : 11

Charmer (Town Protective)

Postby superdog551 » Thu Apr 15, 2021 2:12 pm

Role Name:
Charmer

Role Alignment:
Town(Protective)

Abilities:
-Give someone a charm each night.

Attributes:
-A charm provides basic defense.
-A charm protects someone until one of three things happen: They are attacked, they visit someone, or they are visited. (Transfers occur in this order as well).
-If someone with a charm is attacked the charm will break.
-The person with the highest priority to visit the charmed person will take the charm from them if the owner was not attacked.
-The person they visit will receive the charm from them, if the owner was not attacked.
-People will not know they have a charm and you do not know their location after you have given them away, however, you will know if one has been broken. [One of your charms was destroyed!]
-You have 2 charms to give away, and they do not replenish when one is destroyed.

Goal:
-Lynch every criminal and evildoer.

Win Conditions:
-Same as town

Additional Information:
-People can only have one charm at a time, and if you try to give someone who as a charm another one you will be unsuccessful [Your target already owns a charm!]. Also if someone with a charm visits someone else with a charm, as long as there are no other candidates for transfer they will keep their original charms.
-You cannot give yourself a charm nor receive one that you made, however you can be given a charm if there is a second charmer.
-The priority for charms to transfer at night is ABSOLUTE LAST and will only transfer if it was not broken by an attack.
-When a person with a charm is visited and they visit someone, the person the owner visited is the one who will receive the charm if possible, otherwise it will move to the next possible candidate.
-If someone with a charm is lynched, you will receive the broken notification as soon as they die.
-If someone with a charm is attacked with a basic attack they will see [You were attacked but a lucky charm protected you!]
-Hypnotist is able to give people the [You were attacked but a lucky charm protected you!] message.

I was going through some of my old role ideas seeing if there was anything salvageable (they aren't very good lol) but I did really like this one. The original was a Neutral Benign with the goal of protecting two people but after seeing Alex's idea for the blacksmith I thought I could repurpose it into a TP role with a similar effect of protecting multiple people at the same time. Admittedly, I don't know if this role is very good but I do think it would be fun.

I do think there are a few things special with this role though, It can protect multiple people at once is the main thing. There are a few drawbacks to this though (or positives depending on how you see it), one being that it would be very inconsistent to protect a revealed jailor which could help disrupt the jailor meta. If a jailor does not know for sure there is a doc/bg they may not want to risk revealing right away as a charm can only protect them for one night at best before it would transfer to someone else. It also could be a reasonable scum claim since people do not know they have a charm until they are attacked.

That's pretty much it! Let me know what you think and if there are any improvements I can make!

EDITS: These will be added after the role has finished being tested in the testing grounds. These edits come from suggestions and observations that came during the testing.
-Charmer can now give themselves a charm and receive their own charms.
(The original version of the role was pretty powerful so I didn't allow it to protect itself. I never changed this when nerfing the role but there is no reason not to include it)
-Charmer no longer gives a unique message, instead anyone protected by a charm will get the same notification as if a doctor had healed them. (This is to prevent confirmability with the charmer)
Last edited by superdog551 on Fri May 28, 2021 7:36 pm, edited 4 times in total.
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Re: Charmer (Town Protective)

Postby superdog551 » Thu Apr 15, 2021 4:54 pm

To whoever voted to scrap the idea in the poll I would really like to know why you voted that way
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Re: Charmer (Town Protective)

Postby FadedEmperor » Thu Apr 15, 2021 9:29 pm

A few things:
1. This just sounds like better bodyguard.
2. If this were actually getting in the game, it would most likely be a unique role and would most likely be 1 or 2 charmings, because having up to 3 basic-defense town members is op.
3. What would happen if someone has a charm and attacks someone, which action takes priority? The attack or the charm?
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Re: Charmer (Town Protective)

Postby superdog551 » Thu Apr 15, 2021 9:37 pm

FadedEmperor wrote:A few things:
1. This just sounds like better bodyguard.
I wouldn't say so. It is very difficult to protect someone directly as the charm gets passed around at any visit and it does not kill any attackers. Yes it can protect multiple people, but not every one of those people will end up being town. My main idea is that it would cause uncertainty in attacking scum because anybody at all could have a charm at any time.
2. If this were actually getting in the game, it would most likely be a unique role and would most likely be 1 or 2 charmings, because having up to 3 basic-defense town members is op.
I was thinking about making it unique, because you're right that 2 of them or more could lead to a huge amount of charms in the town. I feel like this may not be a huge issue though because if you try to give a charm to someone who already has one it will fail, and it won't always be town that has all of the charms. Do you think it would be better off unique?
3. What would happen if someone has a charm and attacks someone, which action takes priority? The attack or the charm?
The charm would not transfer. I intend for the charm transfer action to take place absolutely last at night, so the target would die before the charm could transfer. In this case it would only swap to a person who visited the attacker on that night and not the person they attacked.
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Re: Charmer (Town Protective)

Postby Ezradekezra » Thu Apr 15, 2021 11:22 pm

Not sure if this needs tweaking or anything but it's a neat idea so /support

What happens if a Transporter is given a charm and they visit two players?

FadedEmperor wrote:1. This just sounds like better bodyguard.

This is literally nothing like BG other than the fact that it's a protective role
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Re: Charmer (Town Protective)

Postby superdog551 » Thu Apr 15, 2021 11:31 pm

Ezradekezra wrote:Not sure if this needs tweaking or anything but it's a neat idea so /support

What happens if a Transporter is given a charm and they visit two players?

FadedEmperor wrote:1. This just sounds like better bodyguard.

This is literally nothing like BG other than the fact that it's a protective role


That's a good question, I suppose either the first person the transporter chose to transport that night would receive it if possible, unless I can think of a better idea for that situation
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Re: Charmer (Town Protective)

Postby alex1234321 » Fri Apr 16, 2021 6:42 am

This is an interesting role. I would reduce the number of charms to two because you don't see Doctors healing three players in one game very often. This role has less control over who it protects, so it should save people more often than a role like Doctor. I think two would still be more than enough to make it stronger than Doctor in terms of protective ability.

The one thing that concerns me a little about this role is the amount of control the player has on who it protects. Even if the Charmer protects a Town role, its impact depends on the specific sub-alignment of that player. For example, if the Charmer protects another TP or a Lookout, that player is likely to continue visiting Town roles, which would keep the charm in the hands of the Town for longer. If the Charmer picks a different TI, like a Sheriff, that player is likely to visit scum, which could be negative utility.

I may have missed this, but what happens if a killer receives a charm? Would the player being attacked be protected or would the charm only transfer to someone who visits the killer? Personally, I do not think attackers should be able to pass charms to players they visit since you would be rewarding the Charmer for choosing to protect someone on the wrong team.

Does the Charmer know who has the charms at any given time? This would add another layer of strategy to the role and could help make it more skill-based. It could lead to new strategies, such as the Charmer telling players who they should visit, which could also allow scum to fakeclaim and effectively control the actions of important Town members.
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Re: Charmer (Town Protective)

Postby superdog551 » Fri Apr 16, 2021 10:49 am

alex1234321 wrote:This is an interesting role. I would reduce the number of charms to two because you don't see Doctors healing three players in one game very often. This role has less control over who it protects, so it should save people more often than a role like Doctor. I think two would still be more than enough to make it stronger than Doctor in terms of protective ability.

The one thing that concerns me a little about this role is the amount of control the player has on who it protects. Even if the Charmer protects a Town role, its impact depends on the specific sub-alignment of that player. For example, if the Charmer protects another TP or a Lookout, that player is likely to continue visiting Town roles, which would keep the charm in the hands of the Town for longer. If the Charmer picks a different TI, like a Sheriff, that player is likely to visit scum, which could be negative utility.

I may have missed this, but what happens if a killer receives a charm? Would the player being attacked be protected or would the charm only transfer to someone who visits the killer? Personally, I do not think attackers should be able to pass charms to players they visit since you would be rewarding the Charmer for choosing to protect someone on the wrong team.

Does the Charmer know who has the charms at any given time? This would add another layer of strategy to the role and could help make it more skill-based. It could lead to new strategies, such as the Charmer telling players who they should visit, which could also allow scum to fakeclaim and effectively control the actions of important Town members.


Yeah I have been thinking and three is definitely too much, unless the role became unique which I would then argue that three is fine. I'll change it to two for now to allow multiple to appear in a game without having 9 charms floating around.

That is the point though, it protects multiple people but doesn't have much control over who those people are. I don't think the scenario you described would be very harmful to town because yes the charm would end up passing into the hands of a scum, but the second that scum visits someone (which is almost 100% going to be a town member) they will hand it back to the town. The only situations that stall the charm are when someone doesn't have the ability to visit, like the medium or executioner, in which case they only lose the charm when a non killing role visits them.

I think I explained it somewhere above but the killer would not pass on the charm to the person they attacked, it would only move to someone who visited them. This is because the transfer of a charm happens dead last at night, after all other actions, and so the person they attack will already be dead and the charm couldn't move onto them. I suppose it could be possible for a killer to pass on a charm if the person they attacked was night immune or healed in some way, but it may just be better to make it so killing roles don't transfer by visiting.

Currently the Charmer does not know who has the charms but I like the idea of seeing where they are, like the little symbol next to your target when you are an executioner. I didn't add this originally because I thought it might give the charmer too much info. For example the charmer gives one to Person A and Person B. The next night Person A loses the charm and Person C receives it, now the charmer knows one of them visited the other. It's not too much information really, so I think I will make a revision to this role to give it 2 charms and allow it to see where they are and we can work from there to figure out if it needs more changing. Thanks for the feedback!
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Re: Charmer (Town Protective)

Postby alex1234321 » Fri Apr 16, 2021 11:28 am

superdog551 wrote:Currently the Charmer does not know who has the charms but I like the idea of seeing where they are, like the little symbol next to your target when you are an executioner. I didn't add this originally because I thought it might give the charmer too much info. For example the charmer gives one to Person A and Person B. The next night Person A loses the charm and Person C receives it, now the charmer knows one of them visited the other. It's not too much information really, so I think I will make a revision to this role to give it 2 charms and allow it to see where they are and we can work from there to figure out if it needs more changing. Thanks for the feedback!


I didn't think of how the Charmer would see people's visits. When there's only one charm floating around, it would act like a buffed Tracker most of the time. Of course, it wouldn't be able to spot killers, but anyone who claims to have visited someone who they didn't actually visit can easily be caught. With two charms it seems okay but it would be weird if you only saw charms when both are deployed and the Charmer shouldn't be required to send both charms at once.
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Re: Charmer (Town Protective)

Postby superdog551 » Fri Apr 16, 2021 11:35 am

alex1234321 wrote:
superdog551 wrote:Currently the Charmer does not know who has the charms but I like the idea of seeing where they are, like the little symbol next to your target when you are an executioner. I didn't add this originally because I thought it might give the charmer too much info. For example the charmer gives one to Person A and Person B. The next night Person A loses the charm and Person C receives it, now the charmer knows one of them visited the other. It's not too much information really, so I think I will make a revision to this role to give it 2 charms and allow it to see where they are and we can work from there to figure out if it needs more changing. Thanks for the feedback!


I didn't think of how the Charmer would see people's visits. When there's only one charm floating around, it would act like a buffed Tracker most of the time. Of course, it wouldn't be able to spot killers, but anyone who claims to have visited someone who they didn't actually visit can easily be caught. With two charms it seems okay but it would be weird if you only saw charms when both are deployed and the Charmer shouldn't be required to send both charms at once.


It wouldn't only see them when both are deployed and it only gives out one charm per night, it doesn't have to give both right away.
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Re: Charmer (Town Protective)

Postby alex1234321 » Fri Apr 16, 2021 11:53 am

superdog551 wrote:
alex1234321 wrote:
superdog551 wrote:Currently the Charmer does not know who has the charms but I like the idea of seeing where they are, like the little symbol next to your target when you are an executioner. I didn't add this originally because I thought it might give the charmer too much info. For example the charmer gives one to Person A and Person B. The next night Person A loses the charm and Person C receives it, now the charmer knows one of them visited the other. It's not too much information really, so I think I will make a revision to this role to give it 2 charms and allow it to see where they are and we can work from there to figure out if it needs more changing. Thanks for the feedback!


I didn't think of how the Charmer would see people's visits. When there's only one charm floating around, it would act like a buffed Tracker most of the time. Of course, it wouldn't be able to spot killers, but anyone who claims to have visited someone who they didn't actually visit can easily be caught. With two charms it seems okay but it would be weird if you only saw charms when both are deployed and the Charmer shouldn't be required to send both charms at once.


It wouldn't only see them when both are deployed and it only gives out one charm per night, it doesn't have to give both right away.


I was saying that if only one charm is out then the role is basically a protective Tracker which feels OP. I was trying to come up with potential solutions but I think it would be better if the Charmer doesn't see who was charmed. I didn't think about how you could deduce visits by seeing who is charmed.
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Re: Charmer (Town Protective)

Postby superdog551 » Fri Apr 16, 2021 12:11 pm

alex1234321 wrote:
superdog551 wrote:
alex1234321 wrote:
superdog551 wrote:Currently the Charmer does not know who has the charms but I like the idea of seeing where they are, like the little symbol next to your target when you are an executioner. I didn't add this originally because I thought it might give the charmer too much info. For example the charmer gives one to Person A and Person B. The next night Person A loses the charm and Person C receives it, now the charmer knows one of them visited the other. It's not too much information really, so I think I will make a revision to this role to give it 2 charms and allow it to see where they are and we can work from there to figure out if it needs more changing. Thanks for the feedback!


I didn't think of how the Charmer would see people's visits. When there's only one charm floating around, it would act like a buffed Tracker most of the time. Of course, it wouldn't be able to spot killers, but anyone who claims to have visited someone who they didn't actually visit can easily be caught. With two charms it seems okay but it would be weird if you only saw charms when both are deployed and the Charmer shouldn't be required to send both charms at once.


It wouldn't only see them when both are deployed and it only gives out one charm per night, it doesn't have to give both right away.


I was saying that if only one charm is out then the role is basically a protective Tracker which feels OP. I was trying to come up with potential solutions but I think it would be better if the Charmer doesn't see who was charmed. I didn't think about how you could deduce visits by seeing who is charmed.


Oh I see what you were getting at now, I will remove that ability again because I agree that it gives the Charmer a bit more information than it should
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Re: Charmer (Town Protective)

Postby superdog551 » Thu Apr 22, 2021 9:06 am

I'd like to know if anyone has anything new to comment now that this role has been edited?
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Re: Charmer (Town Protective)

Postby Cavespider17 » Fri May 07, 2021 4:38 pm

How does Transporter effect the Charm being given? What about the Witch? Do they cause redirection or does the Charm fail? Maybe it could rebound onto them, particularly the Witch. Also: What would your Invest results me, and how would you support a spy saying your target was attacked? Would their be a notification or bug?
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Re: Charmer (Town Protective)

Postby superdog551 » Fri May 07, 2021 5:00 pm

Cavespider17 wrote:How does Transporter effect the Charm being given? What about the Witch? Do they cause redirection or does the Charm fail? Maybe it could rebound onto them, particularly the Witch. Also: What would your Invest results me, and how would you support a spy saying your target was attacked? Would their be a notification or bug?



Let's say there's a charmer, a transporter, and A and B are the transed targets. If charmer tries to give a charm to A, B would get it instead and vice versa. If charmer gave it to the transporter they would keep it the first night and the next night it would be given to whoever the transporter targeted first. If A already has a charm and the charmer tries to give one to B it would get interesting. The charm A already has would transfer to the transporter and the charm given to B would instead be given to A. If at any point a charm attempts to transfer to someone who already has one it instead stays with it's holder, unless there was a different target that could receive one.

The charmer doesn't give away charms to visitors, only to those it visits, so if the charmer was witched then whoever they were controlled into would gain the charm (unless that person already has one that didn't transfer, in which case it would fail). If the witch controls someone with a charm then whoever that person visited would be the one to get it because the transfer prioritizes visits rather than visitors. That being said, if the witch controls a non visiting role then they would get the charm unless someone of higher priority than them also visited the same target... Let me know if that all makes sense

Investigator results are tough, I would like it to be something evils could claim. It could potentially fall under "LO, Forger, Witch, or Charmer" to give the forger and witch an easier fake claim since neither can easily confirm themselves like a LO can. It doesn't much matter to me what they are though so if you have a better suggestion I'll take it.

I think you mean how can the charmer know if a spy is telling the truth that someone with a charm was attacked? If so then the answer is simple, the Charmer gets a notification any time one of their charms breaks, so if a spy claims they seen someone with a charm get attacked the charmer could pretty easily confirm or deny it. The spy's bug would see "Your target was attacked but a lucky charm protected them!"
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Re: Charmer (Town Protective)

Postby ak521 » Fri May 07, 2021 9:29 pm

very complicated and not fitting lore.
You also copied my role name.
no support
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Re: Charmer (Town Protective)

Postby superdog551 » Fri May 07, 2021 11:01 pm

ak521 wrote:very complicated and not fitting lore.
You also copied my role name.
no support


... Are you joking?

I'm assuming you're not since you voted I should scrap the idea, so in that case I disagree with you. A person who makes good luck charms that protect people is fine enough lore and it's really not that complicated. You give it to someone and then it gets passed to someone else.

I also did not copy your role name. For one, Charmer is a pretty basic name anyway and for two I made a role called "Charmer" back in 2017 which is two years before your role idea. Did you copy MY role name? I've never even seen yours before now.
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Re: Charmer (Town Protective)

Postby superdog551 » Fri May 28, 2021 7:37 pm

Added notes about edits to make after the role has finished being tested in the TG. More feedback is welcome!
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Re: Charmer (Town Protective)

Postby DoctorPyro2001 » Tue Jul 27, 2021 7:54 am

I like the idea of a transferable defense that can hop between people visiting with no idea where it's going. I just feel it ends up being too random, especially if an evil who doesn't kill takes it. Then again we have transporter which is just as chaotic with what it can do but unlike trans you cannot see where the charm goes. This will need more testing for now I am not so sure if this is good or fundamentally flawed...
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