Blacksmith (Town Protective) [Edited by balancing team]

Suggest new roles or changes to current roles for the game here.

Should this role be buffed or nerfed?

Buffed
3
17%
Nerfed
1
6%
The role is good as it is
6
33%
Larger changes are needed
5
28%
The concept is bad and the role should be scrapped
3
17%
 
Total votes : 18

Blacksmith (Town Protective) [Edited by balancing team]

Postby alex1234321 » Tue Apr 13, 2021 7:55 am

Role Name:
Blacksmith

Role Alignment:
Town Protective

Abilities:
Watch over two players every night.

Attributes:
If either player is attacked or lynched the next day, the other player gains armor.
Armor provides powerful defense to a target until their next attack.
Players are not notified when they receive armor.
You may not give armor to yourself.

Goal:
Lynch every criminal and evildoer.

Win Conditions:
Same as Town.

Additional Information:
Armor takes effect the night a player is attacked. If both players are attacked, you will give armor to your second target, saving them unless the attack was unstoppable.

Potential Buffs/Nerfs:
Add self-protecting ability
Allow multitasking Done
Player can give armor after target is lynched Done
Do not protect target the night you give them armor
Require player to spend a night crafting armor
Last edited by alex1234321 on Mon Apr 19, 2021 6:25 am, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: Blacksmith (Town Protective)

Postby syjfwbaobfwl » Tue Apr 13, 2021 9:36 am

Make that armors give powerful defense



It is too UP currently, a good buff would be making armors give powerful defense
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Re: Blacksmith (Town Protective)

Postby superdog551 » Tue Apr 13, 2021 9:38 am

I think that it needs to spend a day to make armor rather than see someone get killed because it would be more consistent and be able to use what makes it different (and also it can avoid the risk of being ambushed while trying to watch someone die).

The special thing about this role is that it can protect multiple people at once and keep them safe until they are attacked, right? It's actually pretty powerful and strategic, if it gives jailor a shield then other TPs can be on different people since the jailor is always protected. It has to be able to do this consistently, though, because if it has to play the guessing game on who is going to get killed then it's possible that it will never protect someone or that it will be ambushed before it can place a shield, like I said earlier.
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Re: Blacksmith (Town Protective)

Postby alex1234321 » Tue Apr 13, 2021 3:27 pm

superdog551 wrote:I think that it needs to spend a day to make armor rather than see someone get killed because it would be more consistent and be able to use what makes it different (and also it can avoid the risk of being ambushed while trying to watch someone die).

The special thing about this role is that it can protect multiple people at once and keep them safe until they are attacked, right? It's actually pretty powerful and strategic, if it gives jailor a shield then other TPs can be on different people since the jailor is always protected. It has to be able to do this consistently, though, because if it has to play the guessing game on who is going to get killed then it's possible that it will never protect someone or that it will be ambushed before it can place a shield, like I said earlier.


Do you think watching over people should be astral? I didn't think about that but it would fix the issue of getting attacked by an Ambusher.

Yeah, my main purpose when making this role was to be able to protect people simultaneously, but it must be difficult to do that for it to not be OP. The reason why I made it based on deaths was to prevent dependence on night number while keeping it on par with the Doctor in terms of power. You can think of a Doctor as effectively giving an autovest to its target if they are attacked since the autovest would break the night the Doctor give it to them. Blacksmith is weaker than Doctor because someone with an autovest might get lynched or survive until the end of the game, making the autovest useless. Its main strength compared to Doctor is that it is more versatile since it can target the player who it thinks is most likely to die as opposed to always staying on important roles. To further differentiate Blacksmith from Doctor, I considered giving it armor if its target is lynched, but I wasn't sure if that would lead people to lynch Medium claims so that the Blacksmith could protect the Jailor.

syjfwbaobfwl wrote:Make that armors give powerful defense



It is too UP currently, a good buff would be making armors give powerful defense


That's probably a good idea. It's not a big deal for the current Ranked list but it basically is a weaker Doctor in its current state. I'll make that change.
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Re: Blacksmith (Town Protective)

Postby superdog551 » Tue Apr 13, 2021 6:37 pm

Spoiler:
alex1234321 wrote:
superdog551 wrote:I think that it needs to spend a day to make armor rather than see someone get killed because it would be more consistent and be able to use what makes it different (and also it can avoid the risk of being ambushed while trying to watch someone die).

The special thing about this role is that it can protect multiple people at once and keep them safe until they are attacked, right? It's actually pretty powerful and strategic, if it gives jailor a shield then other TPs can be on different people since the jailor is always protected. It has to be able to do this consistently, though, because if it has to play the guessing game on who is going to get killed then it's possible that it will never protect someone or that it will be ambushed before it can place a shield, like I said earlier.


Do you think watching over people should be astral? I didn't think about that but it would fix the issue of getting attacked by an Ambusher.

Yeah, my main purpose when making this role was to be able to protect people simultaneously, but it must be difficult to do that for it to not be OP. The reason why I made it based on deaths was to prevent dependence on night number while keeping it on par with the Doctor in terms of power. You can think of a Doctor as effectively giving an autovest to its target if they are attacked since the autovest would break the night the Doctor give it to them. Blacksmith is weaker than Doctor because someone with an autovest might get lynched or survive until the end of the game, making the autovest useless. Its main strength compared to Doctor is that it is more versatile since it can target the player who it thinks is most likely to die as opposed to always staying on important roles. To further differentiate Blacksmith from Doctor, I considered giving it armor if its target is lynched, but I wasn't sure if that would lead people to lynch Medium claims so that the Blacksmith could protect the Jailor.

syjfwbaobfwl wrote:Make that armors give powerful defense



It is too UP currently, a good buff would be making armors give powerful defense


That's probably a good idea. It's not a big deal for the current Ranked list but it basically is a weaker Doctor in its current state. I'll make that change.


It's still night dependent except worse when it needs to guess who is going to die, an astral visit and powerful defense are nice but it is far too inconsistent to be useful without a steady placement of shields. Doctor and BG can protect every night where if this role gets unlucky it can end up not protecting at all. Even at the luckiest it would miss protecting N1 and then give shields every other night since it has to take a night to give a shield to someone else. It would be best to make it more consistent, whether or not that is through night dependency or by some other means can be worked around.
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Re: Blacksmith (Town Protective)

Postby alex1234321 » Tue Apr 13, 2021 7:34 pm

superdog551 wrote:It's still night dependent except worse when it needs to guess who is going to die, an astral visit and powerful defense are nice but it is far too inconsistent to be useful without a steady placement of shields. Doctor and BG can protect every night where if this role gets unlucky it can end up not protecting at all. Even at the luckiest it would miss protecting N1 and then give shields every other night since it has to take a night to give a shield to someone else. It would be best to make it more consistent, whether or not that is through night dependency or by some other means can be worked around.


By night dependence, I meant that it's dependent on the night number. The outcome of the game shouldn't be determined by whether it lasts 5 or 6 nights.

Doctor does absolutely nothing unless it saves someone from death (which means they target the person the night they are attacked). Blacksmith does nothing unless they watch someone who dies, which is basically the same condition as Doctor. The difference is that if the person with Blacksmith's autovest either gets lynched or survives, the armor is wasted.

I agree that it should be slightly easier for Blacksmith to get armor to compensate for the fact that the armor might be wasted. What are your thoughts about having the Blacksmith get armor if the person it watches gets lynched? I didn't put that in the original role because it could be OP if the player either picks obvious lynch targets or pushes the targets themselves, but idk how easy it would be for a Townie to do that effectively. That could be a good compromise between the current role and your night number suggestion.
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Re: Blacksmith (Town Protective)

Postby superdog551 » Tue Apr 13, 2021 8:12 pm

alex1234321 wrote:
superdog551 wrote:It's still night dependent except worse when it needs to guess who is going to die, an astral visit and powerful defense are nice but it is far too inconsistent to be useful without a steady placement of shields. Doctor and BG can protect every night where if this role gets unlucky it can end up not protecting at all. Even at the luckiest it would miss protecting N1 and then give shields every other night since it has to take a night to give a shield to someone else. It would be best to make it more consistent, whether or not that is through night dependency or by some other means can be worked around.


By night dependence, I meant that it's dependent on the night number. The outcome of the game shouldn't be determined by whether it lasts 5 or 6 nights.

Doctor does absolutely nothing unless it saves someone from death (which means they target the person the night they are attacked). Blacksmith does nothing unless they watch someone who dies, which is basically the same condition as Doctor. The difference is that if the person with Blacksmith's autovest either gets lynched or survives, the armor is wasted.

I agree that it should be slightly easier for Blacksmith to get armor to compensate for the fact that the armor might be wasted. What are your thoughts about having the Blacksmith get armor if the person it watches gets lynched? I didn't put that in the original role because it could be OP if the player either picks obvious lynch targets or pushes the targets themselves, but idk how easy it would be for a Townie to do that effectively. That could be a good compromise between the current role and your night number suggestion.


The comparison with doctor doing nothing isn't a good one, because the doctor is doing something. If a doctor goes on someone who isn't attacked, that person is still protected had they been and the doctor can still protect someone else the next night, whereas the blacksmith would have to try again to be on someone who is attacked AND THEN give protection the next night after that if they were successful. It's just too weak this way.

Having a selected target getting lynched also count wouldn't really be helpful tbh because if the Blacksmith targets a town hoping that they die so they can get a shield and they do not die that night, then they would also be hoping for a mislynch. Either town would mislynch on purpose so the blacksmith can make a shield or it would waste a night. This would most likely, like you said, result in town purposefully mislynching "weaker" roles like medium claims to give the the smith a shield (something also exploitable by scum claiming to be blacksmith and pushing an innocent for their own goals, which may be a great claim for them but it would be terrible for the town). If the blacksmith counters this by only targeting people they feel are suspicious then they will be very unlikely to successfully get a shield through a night kill and also would have to hope they aren't pushing another mislynch if their scum read is not evil. Would it go through jailor too? Even then I still don't think it's strong enough.

Also imagine if a escort or consort finds this role. Escort at best sets this role back an extra day before it can try to watch someone die while a consort is almost a hard counter. This is because other TPs can protect the night after an escort or consort gets off of them, but for the blacksmith to get rbd twice in a row or more if it hasn't watched someone die and it still needs that extra night before it can even try to protect someone again can seriously cripple the role and the town's defenses.

If you really want it to not be dependent on the night number then there has to be a different yet still consistent method of gaining the shields otherwise it will never be as strong or useful as other TP. I really like the concept of giving shields that protect multiple people at once over time, I just really don't think it can work with such a small chance of it being useful.
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Re: Blacksmith (Town Protective)

Postby alex1234321 » Tue Apr 13, 2021 9:17 pm

superdog551 wrote:The comparison with doctor doing nothing isn't a good one, because the doctor is doing something. If a doctor goes on someone who isn't attacked, that person is still protected had they been and the doctor can still protect someone else the next night, whereas the blacksmith would have to try again to be on someone who is attacked AND THEN give protection the next night after that if they were successful. It's just too weak this way.


If the Doctor goes on someone who isn't attacked, they might as well have stayed home. Same with Blacksmith. The difference between them is what happens when the person is attacked. In the Doctor's case, the target receives an autovest, which automatically breaks that night because they were attacked. With Blacksmith, the autovest isn't automatically placed on the target. This gives the Blacksmith the benefit of choosing who to save (allowing them to watch over lower-priority roles who are more likely to be attacked) with the downside of not being guaranteed to save someone. You can argue that the downside is larger than the benefit, but the difference isn't very much, especially since most players die at night in any given game.

If you issue is that it wastes a night to give the armor to someone, why not just allow multitasking?

superdog551 wrote:Having a selected target getting lynched also count wouldn't really be helpful tbh because if the Blacksmith targets a town hoping that they die so they can get a shield and they do not die that night, then they would also be hoping for a mislynch. Either town would mislynch on purpose so the blacksmith can make a shield or it would waste a night. This would most likely, like you said, result in town purposefully mislynching "weaker" roles like medium claims to give the the smith a shield (something also exploitable by scum claiming to be blacksmith and pushing an innocent for their own goals, which may be a great claim for them but it would be terrible for the town). If the blacksmith counters this by only targeting people they feel are suspicious then they will be very unlikely to successfully get a shield through a night kill and also would have to hope they aren't pushing another mislynch if their scum read is not evil. Would it go through jailor too? Even then I still don't think it's strong enough.


I don't think you would see Blacksmiths pushing for mislynches to protect a Jailor/Mayor unless the next best alternative is to not lynch anyone. Even then, the smith would have to be strongly trusted to pull that off without looking like scum. I think the more common play would be to watch over someone who was almost lynched and is likely to be lynched the next day. Like if someone was acquitted and there wasn't enough time to get a suspicious person on the stand, the smith could target them and push for them to be lynched next. Or if a Mafia member is lynched, the smith can target someone who defended them when they were on the stand. Since autovests are powerful, watching someone successfully even once in a game can substantially improve the outcome for Town.

superdog551 wrote:Also imagine if a escort or consort finds this role. Escort at best sets this role back an extra day before it can try to watch someone die while a consort is almost a hard counter. This is because other TPs can protect the night after an escort or consort gets off of them, but for the blacksmith to get rbd twice in a row or more if it hasn't watched someone die and it still needs that extra night before it can even try to protect someone again can seriously cripple the role and the town's defenses.


I don't see how a Blacksmith getting roleblocked would be different from other roles being roleblocked. It would lose a night like anyone else and would be able to use its ability the next night assuming it isn't roleblocked again. I think the problem you're getting at here is the fact that the role is very inefficient right now, and allowing multitasking would fix that.

superdog551 wrote:If you really want it to not be dependent on the night number then there has to be a different yet still consistent method of gaining the shields otherwise it will never be as strong or useful as other TP. I really like the concept of giving shields that protect multiple people at once over time, I just really don't think it can work with such a small chance of it being useful.


Every other night feels OP tbh. That could lead to around 2 or 3 players being protected at once, which would almost always result in at least one player being saved from the armor and often multiple people would be saved. You don't see Doctors healing multiple players per game very often, and games where a Doctor heals nobody are fairly common. If enough people support this maybe I can add it, but I think it's OP and don't love its dependence on the night number.

I still like the idea of creating an autovest every time the Blacksmith targets someone who dies because of how natural it is compared to the Doctor. Of course, an autovest is weaker than a Doctor heal because of the chance that the player is lynched or survives to the end. You can argue that allowing lynches to activate the armor ability would also be very natural because it would give the Blacksmith an advantage compared to Doctor when the person being watched over is lynched and a disadvantage when the person being protected is lynched. Assuming those two things somewhat cancel out (I'd give the advantage to the smith here), the Blacksmith receives more versatility in exchange for less efficiency and the chance that the vested target survives to the end of the game. Allowing the smith to give armor the next night would cut this inefficiency in half.

Now that I think about it, maybe the Blacksmith can get a secondary ability where they can choose who gets the armor in the event that the person being watched over dies. If the person dies at night, the autovest activates immediately. If they are lynched the next day, the autovest activates that night. To prevent it from being a buffed Doctor, the smith can't watch over someone and give them the armor if they are attacked. That would completely remove the inefficiency.
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Re: Blacksmith (Town Protective)

Postby superdog551 » Tue Apr 13, 2021 9:30 pm

If you issue is that it wastes a night to give the armor to someone, why not just allow multitasking?

Now that I think about it, maybe the Blacksmith can get a secondary ability where they can choose who gets the armor in the event that the person being watched over dies. If the person dies at night, the autovest activates immediately. If they are lynched the next day, the autovest activates that night. To prevent it from being a buffed Doctor, the smith can't watch over someone and give them the armor if they are attacked. That would completely remove the inefficiency.


I like the multitasking option a lot actually. You are right that every other night could get a bit OP, the point of the role is to protect multiple people at once though so maybe there is something inherently OP about that no matter what you do.

My point about the consort affecting the blacksmith worse is with the assumption that, if it has not seen someone die, a role block effectively stalls them for two nights instead of one. Multitasking would fix this though as it can protect the same night it sees someone die or make a new shield the same night it protects someone else.

I don't think I would have any other concerns about the role if this mechanic was added. I like it!
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Re: Blacksmith (Town Protective)

Postby alex1234321 » Tue Apr 13, 2021 9:32 pm

superdog551 wrote:
If you issue is that it wastes a night to give the armor to someone, why not just allow multitasking?

Now that I think about it, maybe the Blacksmith can get a secondary ability where they can choose who gets the armor in the event that the person being watched over dies. If the person dies at night, the autovest activates immediately. If they are lynched the next day, the autovest activates that night. To prevent it from being a buffed Doctor, the smith can't watch over someone and give them the armor if they are attacked. That would completely remove the inefficiency.


I like the multitasking option a lot actually. You are right that every other night could get a bit OP, the point of the role is to protect multiple people at once though so maybe there is something inherently OP about that no matter what you do.

My point about the consort affecting the blacksmith worse is with the assumption that, if it has not seen someone die, a role block effectively stalls them for two nights instead of one. Multitasking would fix this though as it can protect the same night it sees someone die or make a new shield the same night it protects someone else.

I don't think I would have any other concerns about the role if this mechanic was added. I like it!


Awesome! I'll make that change.

Are you still opposed to the lynching mechanic? I'm not sure whether it would have a positive or negative effect on the meta.
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Re: Blacksmith (Town Protective)

Postby superdog551 » Tue Apr 13, 2021 9:37 pm

alex1234321 wrote:
superdog551 wrote:
If you issue is that it wastes a night to give the armor to someone, why not just allow multitasking?

Now that I think about it, maybe the Blacksmith can get a secondary ability where they can choose who gets the armor in the event that the person being watched over dies. If the person dies at night, the autovest activates immediately. If they are lynched the next day, the autovest activates that night. To prevent it from being a buffed Doctor, the smith can't watch over someone and give them the armor if they are attacked. That would completely remove the inefficiency.


I like the multitasking option a lot actually. You are right that every other night could get a bit OP, the point of the role is to protect multiple people at once though so maybe there is something inherently OP about that no matter what you do.

My point about the consort affecting the blacksmith worse is with the assumption that, if it has not seen someone die, a role block effectively stalls them for two nights instead of one. Multitasking would fix this though as it can protect the same night it sees someone die or make a new shield the same night it protects someone else.

I don't think I would have any other concerns about the role if this mechanic was added. I like it!


Awesome! I'll make that change.

Are you still opposed to the lynching mechanic? I'm not sure whether it would have a positive or negative effect on the meta.


I think it's fine. It is a decent buff to the roll and it also gives scum a viable TP claim while also giving them a reason to be pushing innocents which is something they honestly need. I don't think that strategy would be super prevalent by scum but it would be a nice option. I don't think it would mess with the meta too much but that's something that can only be really seen after it's been played with for a while.
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Re: Blacksmith (Town Protective)

Postby alex1234321 » Wed Apr 14, 2021 11:10 am

Can the three people who voted that the role should be scrapped explain what's so bad about it? I like this role but if there's something badly wrong with it I would like to know so that I can focus on other things.
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Re: Blacksmith (Town Protective)

Postby Brilliand » Fri Apr 30, 2021 11:03 pm

Considering the armor protects the Blacksmith's target "until attacked", this role is essentially guaranteed to get at least one protect in. TP roles really shouldn't get that guarantee.

To make matters worse, I think this role can protect multiple people at once? (I'm not entirely sure whether it can or not.)
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Re: Blacksmith (Town Protective)

Postby alex1234321 » Sat May 01, 2021 8:02 am

Brilliand wrote:Considering the armor protects the Blacksmith's target "until attacked", this role is essentially guaranteed to get at least one protect in. TP roles really shouldn't get that guarantee.

To make matters worse, I think this role can protect multiple people at once? (I'm not entirely sure whether it can or not.)


It's not guaranteed to get any protections in. If it never chooses anyone who dies that night or is lynched, it never gets to give anyone armor. The Blacksmith also accomplishes nothing if it everyone who it gives armor to either survives or gets lynched.

It can protect multiple people at once, but only with really good play. It gets to give someone an autovest every time it correctly predicts a death. If it does this multiple times before any of the autovests break, it does get to protect multiple players at once since they both have autovests.

The situation where it doesn't get to protect anyone is comparable in utility and frequency to a Doctor healing no one and accomplishing nothing. The situation where it protects multiple people at once (or multiple people over the course of the game) is similar to a Doctor who saves multiple players.
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Re: Blacksmith (Town Protective)

Postby Brilliand » Sat May 01, 2021 12:36 pm

alex1234321 wrote:It's not guaranteed to get any protections in. If it never chooses anyone who dies that night or is lynched, it never gets to give anyone armor.


Ah! This is what I misunderstood.

If it successfully predicts who will be killed, it then gets to hand out an armor, which is essentially guaranteed to result in a protect.

If it didn't have the "if lynched" condition, then that would be roughly the same standard as a doctor (actually a bit less powerful). I worry that predicting who will be lynched is too easy, though.
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Re: Blacksmith (Town Protective)

Postby alex1234321 » Sat May 01, 2021 1:52 pm

Brilliand wrote:
alex1234321 wrote:It's not guaranteed to get any protections in. If it never chooses anyone who dies that night or is lynched, it never gets to give anyone armor.


Ah! This is what I misunderstood.

If it successfully predicts who will be killed, it then gets to hand out an armor, which is essentially guaranteed to result in a protect.

If it didn't have the "if lynched" condition, then that would be roughly the same standard as a doctor (actually a bit less powerful). I worry that predicting who will be lynched is too easy, though.


The "if lynched" condition is meant to compensate for it being slightly weaker than Doctor. I doubt Townies would want to waste a lynch on a Medium for a possibly fake Blacksmith to be able to protect the Jailor. If there isn't enough time to vote someone scummy up, they might be lynched the next day but Town is still punished for wasting a valuable resource. If someone is clearly scum based on the way they voted in the previous lynch there's a good chance that they'd be killed by Jailor or Vig before they have the chance to be lynched. It's a small buff but I doubt it makes Blacksmith significantly more powerful than Doctor.
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Re: Blacksmith (Town Protective)

Postby sunbird1002 » Sat May 29, 2021 3:42 am

So I was considering this role. It certainly seems solid, and I do like how it rewards Blacksmiths for understanding the game. Protective roles which get their protective capabilities later also combat the jailor meta nicely. The question is then whether the possible upside of this autovest is enough, considering the situations where the Blacksmith predicts someone's death.

The idea town will lynch someone off a blacksmith claim is ludicrous I think. Any scum can claim that, its not confirmable, and its wasting a lynch for a non guaranteed reward. So who is the Blacksmith rewarded for targeting? Well, if Blacksmith was rewarded for targeting town that would be killed at night, then I would disagree. Sure, they get an autovest to give out to someone else (yay!) But they might as well have been a doctor and actually have done something. Its more useful to keep town sticking around in the early game as every town role is a potentially useful power role. If you can keep the most useful roles around in the late game, then you have a higher chance of winning. So no, if you could predict with accuracy who mafia would target on a given night, you would very much rather be a doctor. AKA: Yay you predicted the Lookout claim was going to die! You gave your defence to the Jailor! (But maybe... could have saving the useful lookout been better for the game?)

Instead, the blacksmith is not aiming to look over town roles I think. They are looking over scum roles who can get lynched. If its known that there is a maf in 2 people, but another conflict was resolved the day before, the blacksmith could push for a specific person to be lynched for their armour. This is a feasible strategy, and can help mafia. The question is, which can be resolved by testing, is whether this is a "if only games were longer" role. By the time we are getting scum in two people, the town is solving who mafia are. Is this protection coming too late in the game? I certainly think this role has a high skill ceiling, and perhaps can be used to great effect. I do think its a great Town Protective role.
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Re: Blacksmith (Town Protective)

Postby WaveAqualei » Fri Nov 12, 2021 3:08 pm

So we've been testing this role in the client! Here are our current thoughts:

- This role relies on people dying which is what you want to prevent as a TP role
- Watching one person a day/night is much too slow
- Overall this role is too underpowered

Here's a change I came up with:

I think it would be best if you chose 2 targets to watch at night and gave armor during the day
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Re: Blacksmith (Town Protective)

Postby alex1234321 » Thu Mar 31, 2022 9:56 am

Edited to reflect the changes made to the role after testing.
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