Simple Role Changes

Suggest new roles or changes to current roles for the game here.

Re: Simple Role Changes

Postby MarsGodofWar » Thu Apr 08, 2021 1:52 am

dolphina wrote:literally every action in this game is a direct target wtf are you on about - Fuck you're annoying and arrogant dolphina. Stop deciphering things and being picky because I don't use the exact word you want. ESCORT DIRECTLY TARGETTING THE TRANSPORTER WOULD CAUSE THE TRANSPORTER TO BECOME ROLEBLOCKED. I literally explained it here to cob709 "dude, the transporter would only be roleblocked if directly targetted by an Escort/Consort. So if Transporter is 6 and Escort targets 6 he would be directly roleblocked. He is not being directly roleblocked if he transing himseslf into it. Jesus Christ, solutions to this have been explained multiple times. Why is this so hard for you to understand?"

the devs would literally have to code an entire new “type” of action for this - Would not be that bloody hard to do, stop acting like everything's so complicated


I've literally explained myself multiple times that if the Escort is directly targetting the Transporter themselves then the Transporter would be role blocked. How hard is that to fucking understand? Stop being such a pain in the ass. And stop deciphering every little thing and giving me a hard time because I don't use the exact word you want

cob709 wrote:As dolphina has explained, most actions are direct visits. This includes Escort, Consort, and Transporter. The proposed solution is invalid and will still cause a paradox.


Cob709 honestly sick of fucking hearing from you. Your arrogance is getting on my nerves, you are not right. You're just fucking stupid and can't understand more advance mechanics. You've repeated the same paradox bullshit 6 times and solutions and logic have been explained to you. But it is like talking to a brick wall and you just don't take anything in. We are dealing with a Driver and a Hooker here. Multiple things can happen during the night and at different times. We are not going back in time and killing our grandparents. Transporter worked perfectly fine in SC2Mafia and there were no paradoxes. The proposed solution is not invalid and would not cause paradoxes, so get the outta your head and stop acting so fucking stupid. I've also mentioned many times that if an EScort or Consort is directly role blocking the Transporter themselves, then the transporter would be role blocked, but not if they are transporting themselves into it as the Escort is not directly targetting them. Honestly so fucking annoying because I didn't use your exact terminology, even though I've made myself quite clear what I mean.
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Re: Simple Role Changes

Postby CapWarrior2 » Thu Apr 08, 2021 3:35 am

Alright first of all. Cob, I gotta save I love your profile pic.
Second of all, MarsGodofWar, chill down alright.
A) You say cob is arrogant then you proceed to say he is wrong and you don't accept when people point out a loophole, and while you did make it clearer what you suggested, a loophole will form unless they change the whole priority system and/or how astral visits interact aswell. Just because someone brings up the same problem even though a proper solution hasn't been worked is not an excuse to go on a rant.
B) Just because something from one game works well, doesn't mean that something will work well in this game. It has different mechanics, play style, metas and roles.
C) I see alot of your changes are lore based, which is fine, but an important thing to note is that balance has a higher priority then lore. Even though realistically an escort should be easily able to roleblock a transporter on paper, it won't work in reality. Because in reality you would think a spy visiting a werewolves target might see the werewolf and back away, to save themselves. But obviously their dumb enough to continue to walk in around watch themselves get torn to shreds.
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Re: Simple Role Changes

Postby Brilliand » Thu Apr 08, 2021 4:21 am

CapWarrior2 wrote:A) You say cob is arrogant then you proceed to say he is wrong and you don't accept when people point out a loophole, and while you did make it clearer what you suggested, a loophole will form unless they change the whole priority system and/or how astral visits interact aswell. Just because someone brings up the same problem even though a proper solution hasn't been worked is not an excuse to go on a rant.


A loophole? Replacing the priority system? Reworking astral visits? No no no. It's very simple.

Add a new priority step before 1 in which Escorts and Consorts roleblock Transporters (and only Transporters). Then add another priority step between 1 and 2 in which Escorts and Consorts roleblock Witches. It's an increase in complexity, but not an especially severe one - it's just two roles getting 3 actions per night.

I have no idea why you brought up astral visits.

CapWarrior2 wrote:C) I see alot of your changes are lore based, which is fine, but an important thing to note is that balance has a higher priority then lore.


Oh come on, balance isn't even at issue here. Don't wave around "balance is more important than lore" like it means "lore should always be completely ignored".

We could, I suppose, get into the relative balance of Transporter and Witch vs. Escort and Consort, but since each of those groups has one evil and one town it seems like a wash to me.

cob709 wrote:
MarsGodofWar wrote:
cob709 wrote:That's where the paradox is coming from. When the Transporter moves itself into a roleblock, they become directly roleblocked. But if they're roleblocked, then they never transported anyone. But if that is true, then they do become roleblocked.


...

As dolphina has explained, most actions are direct visits. This includes Escort, Consort, and Transporter. The proposed solution is invalid and will still cause a paradox.


No paradox. MarsGodofWar indicated that my reading of his idea was correct, so I'll spell out the algorithm for it, so you can see there is no paradox.

Priority 0: Escorts and Consorts mark their visits as "roleblocking visits"
Priority 1.1: Transporters check if they are being targeted by a roleblocker. If so, they cancel their action and stay home.
Priority 1.2: Any remaining transporters swap visitors between their targets.
Priority 2.1: Witches check if they are being targeted by a roleblocker. If so, they cancel their action and stay home.
Priority 2.2: Any remaining witches change their first target's visit to match their second target.
Priority 3: All other (non-roleblock-immune) roles check if they are being targeted by a roleblocker. If so, they cancel their action and stay home.
Priority 4: All remaining non-killing roles do their thing
Priority 5: All remaining killing roles do their thing

The proposed changes from the current system are at priorities 1.1 and 2.1, where the Transporters and Witches can be roleblocked just before they act. There is no paradox, because things happen in order, and we never go back to a previous step for any reason.
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Re: Simple Role Changes

Postby cob709 » Thu Apr 08, 2021 5:58 pm

Brilliand wrote:
CapWarrior2 wrote:A) You say cob is arrogant then you proceed to say he is wrong and you don't accept when people point out a loophole, and while you did make it clearer what you suggested, a loophole will form unless they change the whole priority system and/or how astral visits interact aswell. Just because someone brings up the same problem even though a proper solution hasn't been worked is not an excuse to go on a rant.


A loophole? Replacing the priority system? Reworking astral visits? No no no. It's very simple.

Add a new priority step before 1 in which Escorts and Consorts roleblock Transporters (and only Transporters). Then add another priority step between 1 and 2 in which Escorts and Consorts roleblock Witches. It's an increase in complexity, but not an especially severe one - it's just two roles getting 3 actions per night.

I have no idea why you brought up astral visits.

CapWarrior2 wrote:C) I see alot of your changes are lore based, which is fine, but an important thing to note is that balance has a higher priority then lore.


Oh come on, balance isn't even at issue here. Don't wave around "balance is more important than lore" like it means "lore should always be completely ignored".

We could, I suppose, get into the relative balance of Transporter and Witch vs. Escort and Consort, but since each of those groups has one evil and one town it seems like a wash to me.

cob709 wrote:
MarsGodofWar wrote:
cob709 wrote:That's where the paradox is coming from. When the Transporter moves itself into a roleblock, they become directly roleblocked. But if they're roleblocked, then they never transported anyone. But if that is true, then they do become roleblocked.


...

As dolphina has explained, most actions are direct visits. This includes Escort, Consort, and Transporter. The proposed solution is invalid and will still cause a paradox.


No paradox. MarsGodofWar indicated that my reading of his idea was correct, so I'll spell out the algorithm for it, so you can see there is no paradox.

Priority 0: Escorts and Consorts mark their visits as "roleblocking visits"
Priority 1.1: Transporters check if they are being targeted by a roleblocker. If so, they cancel their action and stay home.
Priority 1.2: Any remaining transporters swap visitors between their targets.
Priority 2.1: Witches check if they are being targeted by a roleblocker. If so, they cancel their action and stay home.
Priority 2.2: Any remaining witches change their first target's visit to match their second target.
Priority 3: All other (non-roleblock-immune) roles check if they are being targeted by a roleblocker. If so, they cancel their action and stay home.
Priority 4: All remaining non-killing roles do their thing
Priority 5: All remaining killing roles do their thing

The proposed changes from the current system are at priorities 1.1 and 2.1, where the Transporters and Witches can be roleblocked just before they act. There is no paradox, because things happen in order, and we never go back to a previous step for any reason.

viewtopic.php?f=27&t=115932&#p3586804

With this order, Escort and Consort become Transporter and Witch immune.
Even if there isn't a paradox, this changes the problem of Transporter being roleblock immune to Escort/Consort being Transporter/Witch immune.
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Re: Simple Role Changes

Postby Brilliand » Thu Apr 08, 2021 6:17 pm

cob709 wrote:With this order, Escort and Consort become Transporter and Witch immune.


Not entirely. They get a multi-part action in which the first part is immune to both (and only blocks Transporters), the second part is control immune (and only blocks Witches), and the third part has no such immunities (and roleblocks anything else).

This does mean that an escort can roleblock three people (a Transporter, a Witch and a Doctor) in one night, under certain circumstances. Example:
  • Player A (Escort) visits player B
  • Player B (Transporter) attempts to do something, doesn't matter what since he will be roleblocked
  • Player C (Transporter) swaps Player B with Player D
  • Player D (Witch) attempts to do something, doesn't matter what since she will be roleblocked
  • Player E (Witch) controls Player A onto Player F
  • Player F (Doctor) attempts to do something, doesn't matter what since he will be roleblocked

This could be prevented by removing the "this is a roleblock" flag from the visit when one of the roleblocks succeeds, and/or by granting the Escort Transport/Control immunity when one of the roleblocks succeeds, but both of those have undesirable effects once a Lookout or Tracker gets involved. I suppose granting the Escort transport/control immunity for the rest of the night after successfully roleblocking someone would cause the fewest undesirable effects (it might confirm the target as a Transporter, but odds are they were already confirmed anyway).
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Re: Simple Role Changes

Postby MarsGodofWar » Thu Apr 08, 2021 8:43 pm

cock709 wrote:With this order, Escort and Consort become Transporter and Witch immune.
Even if there isn't a paradox, this changes the problem of Transporter being roleblock immune to Escort/Consort being Transporter/Witch immune.


Honestly cock709 you stupid fuck, I think you just need to stop commenting because clearly, you have a hard time understanding simple things. It's been broken down for you, but you still struggle to understand. Nothing has to been suggested or implied that Escort & Consort would be Transporter/Witch immune. This is now like the 7th time you've argued against this thinking you're right, even though you've been proved wrong, you arrogant fuckhead. Either accept the fact that you're not always bloody right or go somewhere else, dickhead. Plenty of other games have way more complicated scripting and mechanics than Town of Salem, so what's been suggested is really not that hard to do.

MarsGodofWar wrote:Bro, can you fuck off? You are absolutely fucking stupid. Stop putting words into my mouth. Not once did I say that an Escort would be immune to Transports, so I don't understand how you pulled that idea out of your ass.



CapWarrior2 wrote:Alright first of all. Cock, I gotta save I love your profile pic.
Second of all, MarsGodofWar, chill down alright.
A) You say cock is arrogant then you proceed to say he is wrong and you don't accept when people point out a loophole, and while you did make it clearer what you suggested, a loophole will form unless they change the whole priority system and/or how astral visits interact aswell. Just because someone brings up the same problem even though a proper solution hasn't been worked is not an excuse to go on a rant. You're just as fucking arrogant. It's been explained multiple times, neither you or cock709 are right so stop arguing for the sake of it, dickhed.
B) Just because something from one game works well, doesn't mean that something will work well in this game. It has different mechanics, play style, metas and roles. Doesn't mean it wouldn't work, especially when the suggestions are make the roles more balanced and make way more logical sense
C) I see alot of your changes are lore based, which is fine, but an important thing to note is that balance has a higher priority then lore. Even though realistically an escort should be easily able to roleblock a transporter on paper, it won't work in reality. Because in reality you would think a spy visiting a werewolves target might see the werewolf and back away, to save themselves. But obviously their dumb enough to continue to walk in around watch themselves get torn to shreds.


Another fucking arrogant dickhead. If people are rude I'm going to be twice as rude back, so no I will not chill out. Also, cock709 has NEVER EVER proven me wrong. In fact, he's been proven wrong about 7 times and still decides to repeat the same bullshit. Are you another fucking idiot who can't take things in and understand something that's so simple? There's no bloody loophole, it's really quite bloody simple and there are multiple solutions for it. Nothing has to be so linear and there's no fucking paradox to it.
Last edited by MarsGodofWar on Thu Apr 08, 2021 10:14 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Simple Role Changes

Postby cob709 » Thu Apr 08, 2021 9:49 pm

MarsGodofWar wrote:
cock709 wrote:With this order, Escort and Consort become Transporter and Witch immune.
Even if there isn't a paradox, this changes the problem of Transporter being roleblock immune to Escort/Consort being Transporter/Witch immune.


Honestly cock709 you stupid fuck, I think you just need to stop commenting because clearly, you have a hard time understanding simple things. It's been broken down for you, but you still struggle to understand. Nothing has to been suggested or implied that Escort & Consort would be roleblock immune. This is now like the 7th time you've argued against this thinking you're right, even though you've been proved wrong, you arrogant fuckhead. Either accept the fact that you're not always bloody right or go somewhere else, dickhead. Plenty of other games have way more complicated scripting and mechanics than Town of Salem, so what's been suggested is really not that hard to do.

you mean transporter/witch immune?
this has already been explained here
Last edited by cob709 on Thu Apr 08, 2021 10:52 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Simple Role Changes

Postby MarsGodofWar » Thu Apr 08, 2021 10:31 pm

cock709 wrote:
MarsGodofWar wrote:
cock709 wrote:With this order, Escort and Consort become Transporter and Witch immune.
Even if there isn't a paradox, this changes the problem of Transporter being roleblock immune to Escort/Consort being Transporter/Witch immune.


Honestly cock709 you stupid fuck, I think you just need to stop commenting because clearly, you have a hard time understanding simple things. It's been broken down for you, but you still struggle to understand. Nothing has to been suggested or implied that Escort & Consort would be roleblock immune. This is now like the 7th time you've argued against this thinking you're right, even though you've been proved wrong, you arrogant fuckhead. Either accept the fact that you're not always bloody right or go somewhere else, dickhead. Plenty of other games have way more complicated scripting and mechanics than Town of Salem, so what's been suggested is really not that hard to do.

you mean transporter/witch immune?
this has already been explained here


Nothings been implied to suggest that Escort/Consort would become Transport or Witch immune. Or do I have to repeat this to you again you fucking idiot?
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Re: Simple Role Changes

Postby Brilliand » Thu Apr 08, 2021 10:48 pm

cob709 wrote:you mean transporter/witch immune?
this has already been explained here


Broken link?

MarsGodofWar wrote:Nothings been implied to suggest that Escort/Consort would become Transport or Witch immune. Or do I have to repeat this to you again you fucking idiot?


An Escort that selects a Transporter to roleblock would have to either get transport/control immunity for the night or develop some rather strange behavior when affected by a transport/control, so there is some degree of truth to cob's statement.
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Re: Simple Role Changes

Postby cob709 » Thu Apr 08, 2021 10:53 pm

Brilliand wrote:
cob709 wrote:you mean transporter/witch immune?
this has already been explained here


Broken link?

whoops, sorry
fixed it
viewtopic.php?f=27&t=115932&start=50#p3587383
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Re: Simple Role Changes

Postby superdog551 » Fri Apr 09, 2021 12:40 am

Wow it's very hostile here. I think the simplest way for this to work would just be making escort roleblock before transports happen. So if the transporter transes themself with someone who was roleblocked, that person has already been roleblocked so it doesn't move onto the transporter. If transporter is targeted directly then they are roleblocked and nobody gets transed at all. Pretty simple.
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Re: Simple Role Changes

Postby Brilliand » Fri Apr 09, 2021 1:34 am

superdog551 wrote:Wow it's very hostile here. I think the simplest way for this to work would just be making escort roleblock before transports happen. So if the transporter transes themself with someone who was roleblocked, that person has already been roleblocked so it doesn't move onto the transporter. If transporter is targeted directly then they are roleblocked and nobody gets transed at all. Pretty simple.


Yeah, but that's straight-up giving the roleblockers Transporter/Witch immunity. It isn't exactly appealing to remove the Transporter's ability to defend against the Consort and the Witch's ability to defend against the Escort.

The more complicated solution, where the roleblocker only gets to bypass the Transporter or Witch when actually targeting one of those roles, puts the roleblockers and pseudo-roleblockers on more of an equal footing.
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Re: Simple Role Changes

Postby syjfwbaobfwl » Fri Apr 09, 2021 6:58 am

Brilliand wrote:
superdog551 wrote:Wow it's very hostile here. I think the simplest way for this to work would just be making escort roleblock before transports happen. So if the transporter transes themself with someone who was roleblocked, that person has already been roleblocked so it doesn't move onto the transporter. If transporter is targeted directly then they are roleblocked and nobody gets transed at all. Pretty simple.


Yeah, but that's straight-up giving the roleblockers Transporter/Witch immunity. It isn't exactly appealing to remove the Transporter's ability to defend against the Consort and the Witch's ability to defend against the Escort.

The more complicated solution, where the roleblocker only gets to bypass the Transporter or Witch when actually targeting one of those roles, puts the roleblockers and pseudo-roleblockers on more of an equal footing.


or the simple solution, leave inmunities as they are now because there is no problem with them
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Re: Simple Role Changes

Postby superdog551 » Fri Apr 09, 2021 8:00 am

syjfwbaobfwl wrote:
Brilliand wrote:
superdog551 wrote:Wow it's very hostile here. I think the simplest way for this to work would just be making escort roleblock before transports happen. So if the transporter transes themself with someone who was roleblocked, that person has already been roleblocked so it doesn't move onto the transporter. If transporter is targeted directly then they are roleblocked and nobody gets transed at all. Pretty simple.


Yeah, but that's straight-up giving the roleblockers Transporter/Witch immunity. It isn't exactly appealing to remove the Transporter's ability to defend against the Consort and the Witch's ability to defend against the Escort.

The more complicated solution, where the roleblocker only gets to bypass the Transporter or Witch when actually targeting one of those roles, puts the roleblockers and pseudo-roleblockers on more of an equal footing.


or the simple solution, leave inmunities as they are now because there is no problem with them



No I agree I don't think it needs to be changed, I just wanted to give a way it could work so everyone can stop repeating themselves that it would break the game.
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Re: Simple Role Changes

Postby rakso98 » Sat Apr 10, 2021 12:20 pm

So:

1. Transporter transports themselves with Giles Corey
2. Escort role-blocks Giles Corey
3. Neither Giles Corey nor the transporter is role-blocked
4. Both Giles Corey and the transporter are transported

And if:

2. Escort role-blocks the transporter

then:

3. No one is transported

This is what you are suggesting? TBH I prefer the current system

I think the suggested vigi, bmer, retri (although I think Vet should only be used on self) and jailor changes, or similar changes, make sense. I disagree with the other changes.
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Re: Simple Role Changes

Postby MarsGodofWar » Sun Apr 11, 2021 10:03 pm

syjfwbaobfwl wrote:
Brilliand wrote:
superdog551 wrote:Wow it's very hostile here. I think the simplest way for this to work would just be making escort roleblock before transports happen. So if the transporter transes themself with someone who was roleblocked, that person has already been roleblocked so it doesn't move onto the transporter. If transporter is targeted directly then they are roleblocked and nobody gets transed at all. Pretty simple.


Yeah, but that's straight-up giving the roleblockers Transporter/Witch immunity. It isn't exactly appealing to remove the Transporter's ability to defend against the Consort and the Witch's ability to defend against the Escort.

The more complicated solution, where the roleblocker only gets to bypass the Transporter or Witch when actually targeting one of those roles, puts the roleblockers and pseudo-roleblockers on more of an equal footing.


or the simple solution, leave inmunities as they are now because there is no problem with them


There is a problem with them currently syjfwbaobfwl as they make no logicalally sense what so ever. I don't understand why you are so against this.

rakso98 wrote:So:

1. Transporter transports themselves with Giles Corey
2. Escort role-blocks Giles Corey
3. Neither Giles Corey nor the transporter is role-blocked
4. Both Giles Corey and the transporter are transported

And if:

2. Escort role-blocks the transporter

then:

3. No one is transported

This is what you are suggesting? TBH I prefer the current system

I think the suggested vigi, bmer, retri (although I think Vet should only be used on self) and jailor changes, or similar changes, make sense. I disagree with the other changes.


That's what I'm suggesting. You only prefer the current system because you haven't experienced the Transporter change that I'm suggesting. How can you prefer something when you do know what you're preferring it over??

Also, you agree with the nonsense logic that a Transporter can somehow transport an alerted Veteran? I understand that some of the other changes are a bit controversial. But transporter should not be able to transport an alerted Veteran period. Veteran is meant to kill everyone who visits. So how does it make sense for the Transporter to be able to give the Veteran a ride and then once he's transported him, the veteran just shoots him??? A paranoid war veteran who will shoot anyone who visits him, but for some reason he lets some stranger give him a ride to another location for the night and then kills him after. Do you see the point i'm trying to make? This game needs more logic

LO is RNG. Nerf the Jailor meta or create counters to revealing as important roles day 1 and then you nerf the Lookout. But LO should still go back to seeing all targets, as roles shouldn't be based upon RNG.

superdog551 wrote:Wow it's very hostile here. I think the simplest way for this to work would just be making escort roleblock before transports happen. So if the transporter transes themself with someone who was roleblocked, that person has already been roleblocked so it doesn't move onto the transporter. If transporter is targeted directly then they are roleblocked and nobody gets transed at all. Pretty simple.

Exactly, very simple, this is how it was explained multiple times. It's hostile because some of the people that commented are fucking annoying and keep making up paradoxes and conflicting everything. Swfysfdudfu always acts like every logical idea is super confusing and that players won't understand. Cob repeated the same thing 7-8 times and kept getting into his head that Escorts would become Witch/Transporter immune when that wasn't implied in any way. If you're stupid and can't understand simple logic (this goes for Cob & Swyfjdsf), don't comment because your opinion is wrong
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Re: Simple Role Changes

Postby cob709 » Sun Apr 11, 2021 10:51 pm

Here is a critical concept.

Either the Escort/Consort is immune to Transporter/Witch, or the Transporter/Witch is immune to Escort/Consort.
One of these must be true. Otherwise, it will cause a paradox.
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Re: Simple Role Changes

Postby MarsGodofWar » Sun Apr 11, 2021 11:10 pm

cob709 wrote:Here is a critical concept.

Either the Escort/Consort is immune to Transporter/Witch, or the Transporter/Witch is immune to Escort/Consort.
One of these must be true. Otherwise, it will cause a paradox.


Dude that is not fucking true. Honestly, you're not fucking right here so stop being so damn arrogant. There are plenty of solutions to this. THERE IS NO FUCKING PARADOX. How hard is that for you to understand??? Escort/Consort would not be immune to Transporter/Witch if the Transporter is no longer roleblock immune. So get that fucking idea out of your head. Jesus Christ, 3 other people, excluding myself have explained solutions that would not create a paradox. so why are you so fucking stupid ?

This is about the 9th time you've commented. You are not fucking right, ok understand that? You are not fucking right and never will be. THERE IS NO PARADOX! THERE IS NO PARADOX! How many fucking times does it have to be said to get it through your thick head? We are talking about a driver transporting two people here, multiple things can happen in a night and at different times. THIS IS NO TIME TRAVEL PARADOX, so stop thinking there's a paradox when solutions have been explained multiple fucking times. You are honestly fucking stupid and are getting really bloody annoying.

Mechanics are very basic in this game and implementing slightly more advanced mechanics wouldn't be that hard to do.
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Re: Simple Role Changes

Postby Brilliand » Mon Apr 12, 2021 2:12 am

MarsGodofWar wrote:
superdog551 wrote:Wow it's very hostile here. I think the simplest way for this to work would just be making escort roleblock before transports happen. So if the transporter transes themself with someone who was roleblocked, that person has already been roleblocked so it doesn't move onto the transporter. If transporter is targeted directly then they are roleblocked and nobody gets transed at all. Pretty simple.

Exactly, very simple, this is how it was explained multiple times. It's hostile because some of the people that commented are fucking annoying and keep making up paradoxes and conflicting everything. Swfysfdudfu always acts like every logical idea is super confusing and that players won't understand. Cob repeated the same thing 7-8 times and kept getting into his head that Escorts would become Witch/Transporter immune when that wasn't implied in any way. If you're stupid and can't understand simple logic (this goes for Cob & Swyfjdsf), don't comment because your opinion is wrong


Hold on. This is not the same as the version that I explained earlier. superdog551's version is the one where escort/consort become witch/transporter immune.
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Re: Simple Role Changes

Postby MarsGodofWar » Mon Apr 12, 2021 2:21 am

Brilliand wrote:
MarsGodofWar wrote:
superdog551 wrote:Wow it's very hostile here. I think the simplest way for this to work would just be making escort roleblock before transports happen. So if the transporter transes themself with someone who was roleblocked, that person has already been roleblocked so it doesn't move onto the transporter. If transporter is targeted directly then they are roleblocked and nobody gets transed at all. Pretty simple.

Exactly, very simple, this is how it was explained multiple times. It's hostile because some of the people that commented are fucking annoying and keep making up paradoxes and conflicting everything. Swfysfdudfu always acts like every logical idea is super confusing and that players won't understand. Cob repeated the same thing 7-8 times and kept getting into his head that Escorts would become Witch/Transporter immune when that wasn't implied in any way. If you're stupid and can't understand simple logic (this goes for Cob & Swyfjdsf), don't comment because your opinion is wrong


Hold on. This is not the same as the version that I explained earlier. superdog551's version is the one where escort/consort become witch/transporter immune.


Ah yes didn't read it properly. That's not the point though. The point is that there are plenty of solutions to making Escort able to roleblock Transporter without causing a paradox. It wouldn't be impossible at all to implement mechanics for it.
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Re: Simple Role Changes

Postby syjfwbaobfwl » Mon Apr 12, 2021 7:06 am

MarsGodofWar wrote:
syjfwbaobfwl wrote:
Brilliand wrote:
superdog551 wrote:Wow it's very hostile here. I think the simplest way for this to work would just be making escort roleblock before transports happen. So if the transporter transes themself with someone who was roleblocked, that person has already been roleblocked so it doesn't move onto the transporter. If transporter is targeted directly then they are roleblocked and nobody gets transed at all. Pretty simple.


Yeah, but that's straight-up giving the roleblockers Transporter/Witch immunity. It isn't exactly appealing to remove the Transporter's ability to defend against the Consort and the Witch's ability to defend against the Escort.

The more complicated solution, where the roleblocker only gets to bypass the Transporter or Witch when actually targeting one of those roles, puts the roleblockers and pseudo-roleblockers on more of an equal footing.


or the simple solution, leave inmunities as they are now because there is no problem with them


There is a problem with them currently syjfwbaobfwl as they make no logicalally sense what so ever. I don't understand why you are so against this.

I am against this for 2 simple reasons

1: Is a lot of changes which arent really necesary

2: Your only 2 arguments are lore and that it works IN ANOTHER GAME, why is ToS suposed to work as another game?
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Re: Simple Role Changes

Postby syjfwbaobfwl » Mon Apr 12, 2021 7:08 am

Not to mention that most of changes your alt suggested are also because "This is how it works in SC2 mafia game"
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Re: Simple Role Changes

Postby MarsGodofWar » Thu Apr 15, 2021 3:56 am

syjfwbaobfwl wrote:
1: Is a lot of changes which arent really necesary -

2: Your only 2 arguments are lore and that it works IN ANOTHER GAME, why is ToS suposed to work as another game?


(1) There's nothing unnecessary about any of these changes and most of them are minor so wouldn't take a lot of time to implement. I'll explain why I believe a few of the changes are necessary. I won't comment on every role as a few of the changes nothing needs to be said about them.

Transporter:
Roleblock Immunity - Makes more sense for a simple Taxi Driver to be vulnerable to the persuading of a hooker (Escort). Plenty of drivers or chauffeurs sleep with prostitutes all around the world and have their night occupied (roleblocked). I see absolutely no logical reason for Transporter to be roleblocked, besides it being easier to script that way. Please install more advanced Mechanics BMG. Would also be a good nerf to the Transporter.
Doesn't Transport an Alerted Veteran - Logical, there is no way to explain or justify the terrible mechanics with Veteran and Transporter. So a Veteran is a paranoid Soldier who is meant to kill all visitors while on alert. So explain this to me... how is a friendly Driver (Transporter) able to come along to the alerted Veterans house, pick him up and take him to another persons house where he will kill all visitors at that other person's house. IT MAKES NO FUCKING SENSE!!! Just another example of Blankmediagames taking shortcuts to avoid complicated scripting.

Lookout
Can see all targets - Roles shouldn't rely on RNG simple. I've been killed for the pure reason I didn't appear on Lookouts will as TP, because spies/escorts/othertp/framers were on there. I was not lynched because of lack of skill, I was lynched because of RNG, which is a horrible role design. Nerfing the Lookout was just to deal with the terrible Jailor meta. Fix the Jailor meta and the Lookout fixies itself. It never needed the hard nerf and Lookout should go back to seeing all visits.

Veteran
No Longer Unique - No actual reason it needs to be Unique. No more chaotic than a Vigilante or Escort appearing multiple times. More claim space for evils as well

Vigilante
Swingy as fuck & lazy role design to stop people from abusing the role. We have a report system for a reason. But Vigilante suicides make the game way too swingy and can instantly give evils the edge without even trying. Remove the suicide mechanic ASAP thanks.



(2)Actually, I've had plenty of more arguments besides that. Besides, lore is important. One of my main arguments was for roles to have better logic and mechanics. Rather than just implementing an immunity because it is easier and requires less scripting. Like I've mentioned, the mechanics in this game are lazy. And it makes way more sense for an alerted Veteran to kill a Transporter before the Vet gets transported etc etc.

I didn't say TOS was suppossed to work as another game. But I did explain however that the mechanics in SC2Mafia were more advanced and that there are plenty of solutions to remove rb immunity from Transporter without there being any paradoxes or game crashes, like some people seem to believe.

syjfwbaobfwl wrote:Not to mention that most of changes your alt suggested are also because "This is how it works in SC2 mafia game"


You've made an entirely new post to say the same thing you said on the previous post.
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Re: Simple Role Changes

Postby rakso98 » Sat Apr 17, 2021 9:50 am

MarsGodofWar wrote:You only prefer the current system because you haven't experienced the Transporter change that I'm suggesting. How can you prefer something when you do know what you're preferring it over??


By using my imagination? The reason I don't like the changes it because it requires adding exceptions to the mechanics of the game, that will only end up changing gameplay slightly, but introduce a lot of complications for new players. So the benefit is negligible, but the downside is significant in terms of newbie confusion. It seems like you want to add it because it makes more sense to you lore-wise, but most people care about gameplay more than lore.

You would have to basically say for the mechanics:
The transporter transports, unless they are roleblocked (but they ignore the roleblock and transport people if they are transported into a roleblock). And if another transporter transports a transporter into a roleblock, do they get roleblocked or not? A lot of rules and rule exceptions that need to be clarified...

Currently it's very simple and fine in terms of gamplay. All you have to say is:
A transporter ignores roleblocks. So simple.

MarsGodofWar wrote: Also, you agree with the nonsense logic that a Transporter can somehow transport an alerted Veteran? I understand that some of the other changes are a bit controversial. But transporter should not be able to transport an alerted Veteran period. Veteran is meant to kill everyone who visits. So how does it make sense for the Transporter to be able to give the Veteran a ride and then once he's transported him, the veteran just shoots him??? A paranoid war veteran who will shoot anyone who visits him, but for some reason he lets some stranger give him a ride to another location for the night and then kills him after. Do you see the point i'm trying to make? This game needs more logic


The logic is consistent with other roles. Every role that visits an alerting veteran does their thing before being shot. For example, a blackmailer will blackmail a veteran, and then the veteran shoots them. An investigator will get their results, even though the Veteran shoots them afterwards. If you made this change to the transporter, it would work differently from other roles. I think the gameplay mechanics are simpler and more consistent the way that they are now. If you want to make the game have more "logic", you should make game mechanics consistent between different roles.

MarsGodofWar wrote: LO is RNG. Nerf the Jailor meta or create counters to revealing as important roles day 1 and then you nerf the Lookout.


I agree that it would be nicer if the role mechanics had no RNG. But you also need to keep the game balanced. Making these changes would make the lookout OP once again. Also saying "nerf the jailor meta" means nothing if you don't make more concrete suggestions on how. There are already counters to revealing as important roles (witch, consort, blackmailer etc), yet players still reveal for TPLO meta even with the current nerfed lookout because the strategy still works reasonably well. You don't need a jailor in the game to have some town role ask for a TPLO request anyway (for example, a medium can do it). I can't think of an easy way to nerf TPLO meta, without changing the lookout. Maybe you could make the lookout function differently on night one to make it impossible to do TPLO stuff N1 and also make lookout more fakeable (for example, they could work the same way as a tracker instead of a lookout on night one, and then work like a lookout that sees unlimited visits on later nights).
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Re: Simple Role Changes

Postby MarsGodofWar » Mon Apr 19, 2021 6:12 am

MarsGodofWar wrote:You only prefer the current system because you haven't experienced the Transporter change that I'm suggesting. How can you prefer something when you do know what you're preferring it over??


By using my imagination? The reason I don't like the changes it because it requires adding exceptions to the mechanics of the game, It doesn't involve adding expections to the mechanics of the game. All that is required is updating the mechanics and making them more advance because they are quite basic at the moment

that will only end up changing gameplay slightly, but introduce a lot of complications for new players. So the benefit is negligible, but the downside is significant in terms of newbie confusion. Complications, how? confusions, how? If you are new to this game you don't understand any of the roles but you will learn them. So why does it matter if a role is changed? Players that just joined yesterday don't remember the old disguiser, but they will learn the new disguiser. Everyone needs to stop with this bullshit about everything being so confusing. Give people credit for fuck sake. Any changes that are implemented will be advertised in the patch notes. A transporter losing its roleblock immunity isn't really that fucking hard to understand.

It seems like you want to add it because it makes more sense to you lore-wise, but most people care about gameplay more than lore. Lore wise, but I also like logic and a lot of roles in this game lack logic and some attributes have been implemented because its eaiser to script that way. Removing transporter immunity to role blocking wouldn't ruin the gameplay in anyway either, so stop making shit up. Sure, gameplay is more important then lore. But there's nothing about any of these changes that would make game play bad. Actually, a lot of these changes would make gameplay better.

You would have to basically say for the mechanics:
The transporter transports, unless they are roleblocked (but they ignore the roleblock and transport people if they are transported into a roleblock). And if another transporter transports a transporter into a roleblock, do they get roleblocked or not? A lot of rules and rule exceptions that need to be clarified... It is complicated, but there are plenty of solutions to it.

Currently it's very simple and fine in terms of gamplay. All you have to say is:
A transporter ignores roleblocks. So simple. Simple sure. Simple = lazy. The mechanics in this game are very very basic. Sure its simple, but its not logical and makes absolutely no sense what so ever. The only reason Transporter is immune to role blocks is because it's easier to script that way. Fuck simple.

MarsGodofWar wrote: Also, you agree with the nonsense logic that a Transporter can somehow transport an alerted Veteran? I understand that some of the other changes are a bit controversial. But transporter should not be able to transport an alerted Veteran period. Veteran is meant to kill everyone who visits. So how does it make sense for the Transporter to be able to give the Veteran a ride and then once he's transported him, the veteran just shoots him??? A paranoid war veteran who will shoot anyone who visits him, but for some reason he lets some stranger give him a ride to another location for the night and then kills him after. Do you see the point i'm trying to make? This game needs more logic


The logic is consistent with other roles. Roles are different, they are not meant to be consistent. Sure consistency with power, but not consistency in how they work.

Every role that visits an alerting veteran does their thing before being shot. For example, a blackmailer will blackmail a veteran, and then the veteran shoots them. An investigator will get their results, even though the Veteran shoots them afterwards. If you made this change to the transporter, it would work differently from other roles. Its a different bloody role. It's meant to work differently. This still needs to be changed. Theres no way you can justifiy this. Transporter takes Veteran on a drive to another persons house and then after that drive Veteran decides to murder the Transporter. Nah bro, doesn't make sense what so fucking ever. An Investigator snoops around someone's house and detects things, of course they are gonna find out that they're visiting a killing role.

I think the gameplay mechanics are simpler and more consistent the way that they are now. If you want to make the game have more "logic", you should make game mechanics consistent between different roles. The mechanics are basic and lazy. They need to be upgraded. I don't understand anything you're saying. The mechanics need to be consistent between different roles? what? That doesn't make them have more logic. They are different roles for a reason.

MarsGodofWar wrote: LO is RNG. Nerf the Jailor meta or create counters to revealing as important roles day 1 and then you nerf the Lookout.


I agree that it would be nicer if the role mechanics had no RNG. But you also need to keep the game balanced. Making these changes would make the lookout OP once again. Lookout is RNG, shouldn't exist with roles. Nerf the Jailor meta and you naturally nerf Lookout, like I've said a dozen times.
Also saying "nerf the jailor meta" means nothing if you don't make more concrete suggestions on how. Roles that can counter revealing early as a powerful role

There are already counters to revealing as important roles (witch, consort, blackmailer etc), Blackmailer isn't much of a container for revealing as a powerful role. Witch wont do shit against Mayor and wont do shit if a Transporter exists. Can eaisly find the Witch with a LO in jailor meta. Sure Consorts alright, but it isn't that game changing.
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