Simple Role Changes

Suggest new roles or changes to current roles for the game here.

Re: Simple Role Changes

Postby MarsGodofWar » Mon Apr 19, 2021 6:13 am

MarsGodofWar wrote:You only prefer the current system because you haven't experienced the Transporter change that I'm suggesting. How can you prefer something when you do know what you're preferring it over??


By using my imagination? The reason I don't like the changes it because it requires adding exceptions to the mechanics of the game, It doesn't involve adding expections to the mechanics of the game. All that is required is updating the mechanics and making them more advance because they are quite basic at the moment

that will only end up changing gameplay slightly, but introduce a lot of complications for new players. So the benefit is negligible, but the downside is significant in terms of newbie confusion. Complications, how? confusions, how? If you are new to this game you don't understand any of the roles but you will learn them. So why does it matter if a role is changed? Players that just joined yesterday don't remember the old disguiser, but they will learn the new disguiser. Everyone needs to stop with this bullshit about everything being so confusing. Give people credit for fuck sake. Any changes that are implemented will be advertised in the patch notes. A transporter losing its roleblock immunity isn't really that fucking hard to understand.

It seems like you want to add it because it makes more sense to you lore-wise, but most people care about gameplay more than lore. Lore wise, but I also like logic and a lot of roles in this game lack logic and some attributes have been implemented because its eaiser to script that way. Removing transporter immunity to role blocking wouldn't ruin the gameplay in anyway either, so stop making shit up. Sure, gameplay is more important then lore. But there's nothing about any of these changes that would make game play bad. Actually, a lot of these changes would make gameplay better.

You would have to basically say for the mechanics:
The transporter transports, unless they are roleblocked (but they ignore the roleblock and transport people if they are transported into a roleblock). And if another transporter transports a transporter into a roleblock, do they get roleblocked or not? A lot of rules and rule exceptions that need to be clarified... It is complicated, but there are plenty of solutions to it.

Currently it's very simple and fine in terms of gamplay. All you have to say is:
A transporter ignores roleblocks. So simple. Simple sure. Simple = lazy. The mechanics in this game are very very basic. Sure its simple, but its not logical and makes absolutely no sense what so ever. The only reason Transporter is immune to role blocks is because it's easier to script that way. Fuck simple.

MarsGodofWar wrote: Also, you agree with the nonsense logic that a Transporter can somehow transport an alerted Veteran? I understand that some of the other changes are a bit controversial. But transporter should not be able to transport an alerted Veteran period. Veteran is meant to kill everyone who visits. So how does it make sense for the Transporter to be able to give the Veteran a ride and then once he's transported him, the veteran just shoots him??? A paranoid war veteran who will shoot anyone who visits him, but for some reason he lets some stranger give him a ride to another location for the night and then kills him after. Do you see the point i'm trying to make? This game needs more logic


The logic is consistent with other roles. Roles are different, they are not meant to be consistent. Sure consistency with power, but not consistency in how they work.

Every role that visits an alerting veteran does their thing before being shot. For example, a blackmailer will blackmail a veteran, and then the veteran shoots them. An investigator will get their results, even though the Veteran shoots them afterwards. If you made this change to the transporter, it would work differently from other roles. Its a different bloody role. It's meant to work differently. This still needs to be changed. Theres no way you can justifiy this. Transporter takes Veteran on a drive to another persons house and then after that drive Veteran decides to murder the Transporter. Nah bro, doesn't make sense what so fucking ever. An Investigator snoops around someone's house and detects things, of course they are gonna find out that they're visiting a killing role.

I think the gameplay mechanics are simpler and more consistent the way that they are now. If you want to make the game have more "logic", you should make game mechanics consistent between different roles. The mechanics are basic and lazy. They need to be upgraded. I don't understand anything you're saying. The mechanics need to be consistent between different roles? what? That doesn't make them have more logic. They are different roles for a reason.

MarsGodofWar wrote: LO is RNG. Nerf the Jailor meta or create counters to revealing as important roles day 1 and then you nerf the Lookout.


I agree that it would be nicer if the role mechanics had no RNG. But you also need to keep the game balanced. Making these changes would make the lookout OP once again. Lookout is RNG, shouldn't exist with roles. Nerf the Jailor meta and you naturally nerf Lookout, like I've said a dozen times.
Also saying "nerf the jailor meta" means nothing if you don't make more concrete suggestions on how. Roles that can counter revealing early as a powerful role

There are already counters to revealing as important roles (witch, consort, blackmailer etc), Blackmailer isn't much of a container for revealing as a powerful role. Witch wont do shit against Mayor and wont do shit if a Transporter exists. Can eaisly find the Witch with a LO in jailor meta. Sure Consorts alright, but it isn't that game changing.
User avatar
MarsGodofWar
Witch
Witch
 
Posts: 44
Joined: Tue Mar 09, 2021 2:57 am

Re: Simple Role Changes

Postby Brilliand » Mon Apr 19, 2021 2:03 pm

MarsGodofWar wrote:Every role that visits an alerting veteran does their thing before being shot. For example, a blackmailer will blackmail a veteran, and then the veteran shoots them. An investigator will get their results, even though the Veteran shoots them afterwards. If you made this change to the transporter, it would work differently from other roles. Its a different bloody role. It's meant to work differently. This still needs to be changed. Theres no way you can justifiy this. Transporter takes Veteran on a drive to another persons house and then after that drive Veteran decides to murder the Transporter. Nah bro, doesn't make sense what so fucking ever. An Investigator snoops around someone's house and detects things, of course they are gonna find out that they're visiting a killing role.


A Mafioso getting transported into killing himself also doesn't make sense, but it's incredibly rare for Mafia-like games to avoid that outcome when there's a Bus Driver involved.

MarsGodofWar wrote:I agree that it would be nicer if the role mechanics had no RNG. But you also need to keep the game balanced. Making these changes would make the lookout OP once again. Lookout is RNG, shouldn't exist with roles. Nerf the Jailor meta and you naturally nerf Lookout, like I've said a dozen times.
Also saying "nerf the jailor meta" means nothing if you don't make more concrete suggestions on how. Roles that can counter revealing early as a powerful role


How do you avoid the related meta "tp/lo on 1"? It hasn't become a thing in ToS yet, but it could if the "powerful role reveals" part is nerfed.
User avatar
Brilliand
Godfather
Godfather
 
Posts: 1503
Joined: Sat Nov 29, 2014 8:34 pm

Re: Simple Role Changes

Postby SilverCruz » Mon Apr 19, 2021 2:38 pm

So I'm just gonna throw this in.

The most immediate way to nerf Jailor meta would be to make Witch force it to execute by self-targeting. That would put it closer to the level of vulnerability to the Witch that Vigilante has (though it'd still be less vulnerable because it still has its blasted deadlocks and doesn't die after a screwed execution), and take advantage of there being a static Witch.

An alternative would be to nudge the Disguiser closer toward Mafia Support (as is it's just a really dubious hard counter toward TI roles, it and Framer both need help), and make the Bodyguard not respond to the Godfather/Mafioso if they're disguised. This doesn't apply in all games, but in that case having a Disguiser makes the Mafia able to discredit the threat of Bodyguards as well as Lookouts, and that being a possibility dissuades Day 1 Jailor claims.
I know what I'm doing, generally, but I have no grace at all when things start to spin out of control.

I'd like to address the latter part, but I wouldn't know the first thing about that.
User avatar
SilverCruz
Sheriff
Sheriff
 
Posts: 518
Joined: Sat May 30, 2015 5:28 am

Re: Simple Role Changes

Postby syjfwbaobfwl » Mon Apr 19, 2021 4:25 pm

SilverCruz wrote:So I'm just gonna throw this in.

The most immediate way to nerf Jailor meta would be to make Witch force it to execute by self-targeting. That would put it closer to the level of vulnerability to the Witch that Vigilante has (though it'd still be less vulnerable because it still has its blasted deadlocks and doesn't die after a screwed execution), and take advantage of there being a static Witch.

An alternative would be to nudge the Disguiser closer toward Mafia Support (as is it's just a really dubious hard counter toward TI roles, it and Framer both need help), and make the Bodyguard not respond to the Godfather/Mafioso if they're disguised. This doesn't apply in all games, but in that case having a Disguiser makes the Mafia able to discredit the threat of Bodyguards as well as Lookouts, and that being a possibility dissuades Day 1 Jailor claims.


Make visits astrals is not a good idea at all, you are the only one who thinks disg is a bad role, framer is a bad role, not disguiser
syjfwbaobfwl
Jailor
Jailor
 
Posts: 747
Joined: Thu May 07, 2020 1:50 pm

Re: Simple Role Changes

Postby SilverCruz » Mon Apr 19, 2021 4:46 pm

They're both bad because they're both hardcounters that have nothing to do if the roles they hardcounter aren't present, and the Disguiser is an active detriment to the Mafia as soon as it becomes known that there is a Disguiser.

That's more about a Jailor nerf than a Disguiser buff, though. The easiest Disguiser buff would be to just make them invisible to Spies. Especially with two Random Mafia, it's just better if the Spy just never sees a non-Killing visit than trying to deceive them as long as the Disguiser can't forge itself or something to prevent it from being blatantly obvious that there is a Disguiser so some of the Mafia Visits that never got killed by the Mafia are probably Mafia.
I know what I'm doing, generally, but I have no grace at all when things start to spin out of control.

I'd like to address the latter part, but I wouldn't know the first thing about that.
User avatar
SilverCruz
Sheriff
Sheriff
 
Posts: 518
Joined: Sat May 30, 2015 5:28 am

Re: Simple Role Changes

Postby Brilliand » Mon Apr 19, 2021 6:06 pm

SilverCruz wrote:They're both bad because they're both hardcounters that have nothing to do if the roles they hardcounter aren't present


Like... every downside of every role is?

Having the witch make the Jailor execute by making him self-target is just a different resolution of the question "how does Witch interact with the unusual Jailor role that sort-of targets but not really". There's no perfect answer to that question, and lots of OK answers.

Granted the Bodyguard one doesn't make sense because the Bodyguard reacts to "a kill", not a specific role, and Mafiosos still kill no matter what role they're disguised as. I could see the Disguiser negating an ability that did name a specific role, though.
User avatar
Brilliand
Godfather
Godfather
 
Posts: 1503
Joined: Sat Nov 29, 2014 8:34 pm

Re: Simple Role Changes

Postby SilverCruz » Mon Apr 19, 2021 6:21 pm

What are you talking about "every downside of every role is?"?
I know what I'm doing, generally, but I have no grace at all when things start to spin out of control.

I'd like to address the latter part, but I wouldn't know the first thing about that.
User avatar
SilverCruz
Sheriff
Sheriff
 
Posts: 518
Joined: Sat May 30, 2015 5:28 am

Re: Simple Role Changes

Postby syjfwbaobfwl » Mon Apr 19, 2021 6:41 pm

SilverCruz wrote:They're both bad because they're both hardcounters that have nothing to do if the roles they hardcounter aren't present, and the Disguiser is an active detriment to the Mafia as soon as it becomes known that there is a Disguiser.

That's more about a Jailor nerf than a Disguiser buff, though. The easiest Disguiser buff would be to just make them invisible to Spies. Especially with two Random Mafia, it's just better if the Spy just never sees a non-Killing visit than trying to deceive them as long as the Disguiser can't forge itself or something to prevent it from being blatantly obvious that there is a Disguiser so some of the Mafia Visits that never got killed by the Mafia are probably Mafia.


With your rework disg becomes instead a hard counter to bg and LO, why is the current one any diferent from that?

Lo and bg have like a 40% and a 45% chances of apearing each, when every game has guaranteed to have at least 2 TIs (and disg can decieve every of them)
syjfwbaobfwl
Jailor
Jailor
 
Posts: 747
Joined: Thu May 07, 2020 1:50 pm

Re: Simple Role Changes

Postby SilverCruz » Mon Apr 19, 2021 6:54 pm

I mean like I said, that's more about kicking the Jailor in the shin than it is fixing the Disguiser.

Disguiser should be able to forge itself. Or at least something should be able to forge itself.
I know what I'm doing, generally, but I have no grace at all when things start to spin out of control.

I'd like to address the latter part, but I wouldn't know the first thing about that.
User avatar
SilverCruz
Sheriff
Sheriff
 
Posts: 518
Joined: Sat May 30, 2015 5:28 am

Re: Simple Role Changes

Postby Brilliand » Mon Apr 19, 2021 8:05 pm

SilverCruz wrote:What are you talking about "every downside of every role is?"?


Every downside of a role only has an effect if the role is actually present. Most of 'em (though granted, not quite all) only matter if some related role is also present.

Tweaking an existing role to fare better or worse against some other role is just fine. Creating a new role to be a hardcounter to some other role is dubious, but still we have to acknowledge that that's exactly what Godfather and Roleblocker were in the early days of Mafia.
User avatar
Brilliand
Godfather
Godfather
 
Posts: 1503
Joined: Sat Nov 29, 2014 8:34 pm

Re: Simple Role Changes

Postby SilverCruz » Mon Apr 19, 2021 8:13 pm

I'm lost.
I know what I'm doing, generally, but I have no grace at all when things start to spin out of control.

I'd like to address the latter part, but I wouldn't know the first thing about that.
User avatar
SilverCruz
Sheriff
Sheriff
 
Posts: 518
Joined: Sat May 30, 2015 5:28 am

Re: Simple Role Changes

Postby MarsGodofWar » Wed Apr 21, 2021 8:18 pm

Brilliand wrote:A Mafioso getting transported into killing himself also doesn't make sense, but it's incredibly rare for Mafia-like games to avoid that outcome when there's a Bus Driver involved.


It makes sense enough game-wise. You swap yourself with a Mafioso and the Mafia are targetting you. Thats fair that the Mafia dies and it makes sense, not realistically but game wise. Transporter being able to trans an alerted Veteran doesn't make sense what so ever. Transporter should die before he gets the chance to trans Veteran.

Brilliand wrote:How do you avoid the related meta "tp/lo on 1"? It hasn't become a thing in ToS yet, but it could if the "powerful role reveals" part is nerfed.



Start the game on Night 1 is a simple solution. There are also roles that could be added to counter powerful roles revealing. Like Auditor, a Neutral Evil role that removes the abilities and attributes from its target usually has 3 or 4 uses. I'm planning to make a post about more ways to counter, nerf, fix or remove the Jailor/tplo meta

SilverCruz wrote:So I'm just gonna throw this in.

The most immediate way to nerf Jailor meta would be to make Witch force it to execute by self-targeting. That would put it closer to the level of vulnerability to the Witch that Vigilante has (though it'd still be less vulnerable because it still has its blasted deadlocks and doesn't die after a screwed execution), and take advantage of there being a static Witch.

An alternative would be to nudge the Disguiser closer toward Mafia Support (as is it's just a really dubious hard counter toward TI roles, it and Framer both need help), and make the Bodyguard not respond to the Godfather/Mafioso if they're disguised. This doesn't apply in all games, but in that case having a Disguiser makes the Mafia able to discredit the threat of Bodyguards as well as Lookouts, and that being a possibility dissuades Day 1 Jailor claims.


Disagree. Giving the Witch the ability to make the Jailor execute by self targetting removes the skill element from making a Jailor execute a town member and just adds more swingyness to the game. I would like to see the Witch able to send Jailors/Mayors/Non-Visiting roles onto Veteran like I've suggested though

SilverCruz wrote:They're both bad because they're both hardcounters that have nothing to do if the roles they hardcounter aren't present, and the Disguiser is an active detriment to the Mafia as soon as it becomes known that there is a Disguiser.

That's more about a Jailor nerf than a Disguiser buff, though. The easiest Disguiser buff would be to just make them invisible to Spies. Especially with two Random Mafia, it's just better if the Spy just never sees a non-Killing visit than trying to deceive them as long as the Disguiser can't forge itself or something to prevent it from being blatantly obvious that there is a Disguiser so some of the Mafia Visits that never got killed by the Mafia are probably Mafia.


I wouldn't exactly call Disguiser a hardcounter. The role has various uses, but I wouldn't say its there to just hard counter 1 role.
User avatar
MarsGodofWar
Witch
Witch
 
Posts: 44
Joined: Tue Mar 09, 2021 2:57 am

Re: Simple Role Changes

Postby SilverCruz » Wed Apr 21, 2021 8:45 pm

I said it would be immediate, not that it's the best option. You could also just shadow-ban the Jailor from receiving whispers. It appears they went through to the whisperer, but the Jailor doesn't actually receive anything. This would also be a valid thing to do to break up using whispers to suss out a Mayor-turned-Vampire if that's seen as a problem. Starting the game on Night 1, I don't think would solve anything because they'd just do it on Day 2 instead. That said, I don't know how it makes the game more swingy. If you're the Jailor, you keep your mouth shut. Problem solved. If you get Witched, then just like a Vigilante, you become a threat to the town except that, unlike a Vigilante, you can do something about it other than just die, so the Almighty Wesley Jailor is still objectively superior to Vigilantes in every way.

I use "hard counter", in this case, to refer to roles that only exist to interfere with other specific roles even if it's more than one role, and which have nothing to do if those roles are not present/have been knocked out. Framer is a hard counter against Sheriff and Investigator (a bad one, it should at least be able to know which targets are presently framed and when a frame is set off), Disguiser is a hard counter against all the TIs except for the fact that it backfires completely against Spies since the moment a Disguiser goes down, "Oh, the Mafia visited Not A Mafioso three times and they never claimed to have been blackmailed, roleblocked, or anything else. That's suspicious, let's lynch." Not A Mafioso's role was Consigliere. The easiest fix to this would be to just make Disguiser's visits invisible to Spies outright so they don't feed them information that will backfire if they don't see the end of the game, probably with an option to selectively allow themselves to be seen just so it's on the table (this could be used to fake the Disguiser being jailed, though that'd probably be way too subtle to be effective).

Plus, in general, Jailor should lose his roleblock if he doesn't execute. Completely. I not so long ago had a circus of a game that was shaping up to be a stalemate because the Jailor had executed an AFK Vigilante and deadlocked the Godfather, but there wasn't enough voting power to put the Godfather up and they obviously couldn't execute, so days in a row passed where nothing happened, and the only reason I was able to break it up (being the Witch) is because the Mafia just so happened to have an AFK Ambusher that I sent to the Jailor, which ended up with them getting rid of the Bodyguard which made the dominoes fall. True, the first Godfather shouldn't have quit (or rather, the game should've had a better answer to them quitting than "Guess they'll die.") and the Ambusher shouldn't have been AFK, but the Jailor also shouldn't have been able to make that situation happen by just playing the role optimally in the first place either.
I know what I'm doing, generally, but I have no grace at all when things start to spin out of control.

I'd like to address the latter part, but I wouldn't know the first thing about that.
User avatar
SilverCruz
Sheriff
Sheriff
 
Posts: 518
Joined: Sat May 30, 2015 5:28 am

Re: Simple Role Changes

Postby Brilliand » Thu Apr 22, 2021 4:09 am

SilverCruz wrote:I'm lost.


Oh whoops, I somehow skipped over syjfwbaobfwl's post and thought one of your posts was arguing with another of your posts.

I agree with what you were saying now that I've gone back and read it properly.
User avatar
Brilliand
Godfather
Godfather
 
Posts: 1503
Joined: Sat Nov 29, 2014 8:34 pm

Re: Simple Role Changes

Postby MarsGodofWar » Thu Jun 10, 2021 7:12 am

This should be brought up again
User avatar
MarsGodofWar
Witch
Witch
 
Posts: 44
Joined: Tue Mar 09, 2021 2:57 am

Re: Simple Role Changes

Postby Brilliand » Thu Jun 10, 2021 9:30 pm

Yeah, but maybe not in this thread. This thread already has several pages of hostile argument, and the OP consists of many ideas all crammed into one post with only a little explanation for each.

I'd like to see the "roleblockable transporter" idea get a thread all to itself, with a thorough explanation of the exact mechanics in the OP. As for the rest... consider them individually, I suppose. I think most of them were already old and thoroughly-considered before you made this thread.
User avatar
Brilliand
Godfather
Godfather
 
Posts: 1503
Joined: Sat Nov 29, 2014 8:34 pm

Re: Simple Role Changes

Postby Benn3 » Fri Jul 16, 2021 3:35 pm

bringing this up again because i had some thoughts on the suggestions

MarsGodofWar wrote:Transporter: (1) Can now be roleblocked
Absolutely no reason why they should be roleblocked immune. Role blocking should have priority over their transporting. So if they try to transport themselves with someone else they will be roleblocked. Come on, you think a Taxi Driver or Chauffeur is to disciplined to sleep with Hookers? Bonkers, whoever idea it was to make a Transporter immune to roleblocking is an idiot

I agree with this.

(2) Transporting a Vet
The way that transport works with Veteran right now doesn't make any sense. A veteran is meant to shoot anyone who visits them. It makes no sense for the Veteran to be transported whilst on alert and for people visiting the player Vet is transported with to be killed instead.
Instead, if a Transporter chooses to transport a Veteran first. The Transporter will be killed by the Veteran and the 2nd person won't be transported. If the transporter transports someone else first and then chooses to transport the Veteran, the transporter, the player transported first and the players originally visiting the Veteran will be killed instead.

Also agree with this.

Lookout: Sees all targets
RNG shouldn't exist in this game and needs to be fixed. Lookout isn't overpowered, the Jailor meta just sucks. Fix the Jailor meta, you fix Lookout. I got lynched the other game as Bodyguard because a Framer, Spy & some other fucker appeared on the Lookout will but I didn't. So basically, I was lynched because of RNG.

No. The Lookout gets notified when there are more than 3 visitors, so it's the Lookout's fault for not realizing that and lynching you. As another guy said in this thread, it used to be called overpowered which is why they changed it. Besides, most of the time you don't have over 3+ visitors.

Veteran: No longer unique
No reason for a Veteran to be unique, it isn't a super important town power role like Mayor or Jailor and removing it from being Unique would open up claim space for evils. Having 4 Veterans would be insane, but 4 Vigilantes and 4 Escorts is also very insane and unbalanced. I'd like to see 2 Maximum Veterans possible.

Veteran is a very powerful role, that's why it's unique. If you had even 2 experienced Veterans that would be OP. Instead of making Veteran unique, I think the Mafioso's/Ambusher's Investigator results should just be changed.

Vigilante: No longer suicides if they shoot a town member.
Unrealistic and very swingy in ranked. Vigilante should in no way suicide after they shoot a town member. PERIOD. Honestly, they should still be able to shoot afterwards as well. They're a Vigilante afterwards and sometimes Vigilantes kill Innocents. I know this was implemented to stop trolls and game throws, but that is what the report system is for.

I agree that they shouldn't suicide but they definitely shouldn't be able to shoot afterwards, they need a punishment for random shooting so that they don't just think "ah fuck it ill just shoot this guy with 0 consequences". I think giving them 2 bullets but making it so they don't suicide; they just put their gun away is a more balanced change.

Trapper: Add to the standard game please and make this role less slow.
In its current state, this role would be a disaster if added to Mafia ranked. Possibilities: 2 Traps out at a time and/or able to set traps every night without having to wait to build one.

I agree but they shouldn't be able to have multiple PROTECTIVE traps up. After they place their main trap they should be able to place one night traps that tell them the roles that visit their target, however it doesn't protect against visitors. This would make them much more viable as normally after night 2 they just sit around waiting, and if they want to switch targets they'll have to spend a night dismantling. So while they have their protective trap up they can double as a Town Investigative.

Consort: Can detect roleblock immune targets
Mafia counterparts to town roles are meant to be more powerful and have that edge. Power in numbers after all. Consigliere detects the exact role whilst Investigator gets a possibility of roles. I suggest that a Consort is notified if they roleblock someone who is immune.

Sure why not I guess.

Retributionist: Allow to use all roles with active night time abilities.
Currently, Retributionist is either useless or useful depending on which roles spawn. A very terrible rework and an unbalanced an swingy role. Retributionist should now be able to use transporter and veteran. The Veteran would work as a defence role for whoever the Retributionist sends the Vet to.

I agree with this.

Mayor: Can be whispered to once revealed
It's annoying and unrealistic that a Mayor cannot be whispered to. A Mayor should be able to get the help from tp/investigators once they have revealed like a Jailor can. There should still always be a risk to the Mayor revealing early, but once they've revealed... I see no reason people shouldn't be able to whisper and claim to them.

Hell fuckin no. Mayor used to be able to be whispered to, and there was a MASSIVE meta around it. Everybody would whisper Mayor their role and the Town would vote up people for time so that Mayor could get everyone's role. Whoever didn't claim to the Mayor would get lynched. It wouldn't be as bad as it was before because originally there were infinite trials but it'd still be extremely OP.

Witch: All non-visiting targets can be made to visit.
Completely unrealistic that a powerful Witch cannot make a Medium or a Mayor etc visit anyone. This is a simple buff for the Witch, but would make the game more realistic and balanced. Witch should be able to control anyone and make them visit. They can control Jailor, Medium, Mayor etc. These roles will appear to visit on Lookout and Tracker wills and will also be able to visit a Veteran.

I thought they already did this, maybe that's only for Coven Leader. If they don't then yeah I agree.

Godfather: Roleblock immune
Do you really think Don Corleone would abandon his responsibilities and be swayed by a hooker? No. The Godfather is the leader of the Mafia for a reason. Giving the Godfather roleblock immunity would else reduce the chance of an Escort deadlock.

No. The main reason Mafioso exists is so that if the Godfather gets roleblocked, they can leave instead, and vice versa. I do think the system is really dumb though, TMK should be a thing and Mafioso should be removed. But in the current state of the game, the Godfather should not be RB immune.

Blackmailer: Players can now talk during their last words once they've been voted guilty.
You've been blackmailed, but are you not gonna say anything after you've been sentenced to death?

I would say this is debatable because the whole reason BMER silences somebody is to make sure they don't out the Mafia or provide important information, but they could just write the information in their will so that if they get lynched everybody sees it, so yeah I guess this is fine.

Jailor: Targets can be targetted (besides from protection roles)
Once Jailed targets have left their Jailed cells, there's no reason why players should not be able to target them. What I suggest is that investigative roles can now invest targets that are jailed and jailed targets can be killed once they left Jail. If the Jailor executes, the target will still not be able to be protected in anyway.

I've seen suggestions for Jail Armor and the super role-block to be removed. You can't remove one without the other though I'd say. I don't really have any comment on this, it'd have to be tested for me to form a full opinion.

Plaguebearer: No longer reveals to town when it becomes Pestilence.
I love this role and believe it is near perfect in design. But how often does it win? 5%? Somewhat understandable, Neutral Killing roles require more skill and should never have a super high win rate like Town or Mafia. But, I believe the Plaguebearer needs that extra day and it should not be instantly revealed to the town that Pestilence has come. Often when this is announced, Pestilence doesn't have any time to do anything and the town gets desperate to lynch Pestilence. Most of the time, by the time you've become Pestilence, you're doom. "5 claimed Survivor, he's Pestilence" and then you instantly get lynched. The town shouldn't find out about Pestilence until Pestilence has killed. This would also stop people from saying "DON'T VISIT ANYMORE WE NEED TO CATCH PESTILENCE" Giving Pestilence an extra day would make this role way more balanced and winnable.

Can't comment much on this either

Hex Master: Can Hex an additional player with the Necronomicon, but the 2nd hex isn't lethal
How often do you see a Hex Master perform their unstoppable attack? Never. Exactly, so this role needs a buff. I suggest that on nights the Hex Master has the Necronomicon that they are able to Hex a 2nd player, but this player will not be attacked. Would this make Sheriff & Investigators useless? Idk, prehaps stop the Hex Master from framing their target. I think this one is very much up to debate.

I don't think they should be able to perform the kill AND the normal hex at the same time. Instead, give them the option if they want to kill their target, or leave them alive but still hex them.
My main role concepts:

Caporegime
Spirit
Sniper
Assassin
User avatar
Benn3
Executioner
Executioner
 
Posts: 28
Joined: Tue Jun 18, 2019 5:58 pm

Re: Simple Role Changes

Postby ak521 » Sun Jul 18, 2021 6:48 pm

MarsGodofWar wrote:Transporter: (1) Can now be roleblocked
Absolutely no reason why they should be roleblocked immune. Role blocking should have priority over their transporting. So if they try to transport themselves with someone else they will be roleblocked. Come on, you think a Taxi Driver or Chauffeur is to disciplined to sleep with Hookers? Bonkers, whoever idea it was to make a Transporter immune to roleblocking is an idiot

Not related but this game is based on the late 17th century. There's certainly no taxis back then. Regardless I get your idea.
Yea, trans is powerful but so are the rest of the TS with exception of med (which I'm not commenting on since there have been countless proposed changes to that role). I think this change might be worth looking more into.

(2) Transporting a Vet
The way that transport works with Veteran right now doesn't make any sense. A veteran is meant to shoot anyone who visits them. It makes no sense for the Veteran to be transported whilst on alert and for people visiting the player Vet is transported with to be killed instead.
Instead, if a Transporter chooses to transport a Veteran first. The Transporter will be killed by the Veteran and the 2nd person won't be transported. If the transporter transports someone else first and then chooses to transport the Veteran, the transporter, the player transported first and the players originally visiting the Veteran will be killed instead.

I'm not on board with this.

Lookout: Sees all targets
RNG shouldn't exist in this game and needs to be fixed. Lookout isn't overpowered, the Jailor meta just sucks. Fix the Jailor meta, you fix Lookout. I got lynched the other game as Bodyguard because a Framer, Spy & some other fucker appeared on the Lookout will but I didn't. So basically, I was lynched because of RNG.

Not on board with this either.

Veteran: No longer unique
No reason for a Veteran to be unique, it isn't a super important town power role like Mayor or Jailor and removing it from being Unique would open up claim space for evils. Having 4 Veterans would be insane, but 4 Vigilantes and 4 Escorts is also very insane and unbalanced. I'd like to see 2 Maximum Veterans possible.

Nor this.

Vigilante: No longer suicides if they shoot a town member.
Unrealistic and very swingy in ranked. Vigilante should in no way suicide after they shoot a town member. PERIOD. Honestly, they should still be able to shoot afterwards as well. They're a Vigilante afterwards and sometimes Vigilantes kill Innocents. I know this was implemented to stop trolls and game throws, but that is what the report system is for.

Nor this.

Trapper: Add to the standard game please and make this role less slow.
In its current state, this role would be a disaster if added to Mafia ranked. Possibilities: 2 Traps out at a time and/or able to set traps every night without having to wait to build one.

No comment.

Consort: Can detect roleblock immune targets
Mafia counterparts to town roles are meant to be more powerful and have that edge. Power in numbers after all. Consigliere detects the exact role whilst Investigator gets a possibility of roles. I suggest that a Consort is notified if they roleblock someone who is immune.

Interesting, this should be looked at more in depth.

Retributionist: Allow to use all roles with active night time abilities.
Currently, Retributionist is either useless or useful depending on which roles spawn. A very terrible rework and an unbalanced an swingy role. Retributionist should now be able to use transporter and veteran. The Veteran would work as a defence role for whoever the Retributionist sends the Vet to.

Not on board with this.

Mayor: Can be whispered to once revealed
It's annoying and unrealistic that a Mayor cannot be whispered to. A Mayor should be able to get the help from tp/investigators once they have revealed like a Jailor can. There should still always be a risk to the Mayor revealing early, but once they've revealed... I see no reason people shouldn't be able to whisper and claim to them.

Nor this. You earlier commented about the Jailor meta, this would create a similar Mayor meta where it's "Claim to mayor or die".

Witch: All non-visiting targets can be made to visit.
Completely unrealistic that a powerful Witch cannot make a Medium or a Mayor etc visit anyone. This is a simple buff for the Witch, but would make the game more realistic and balanced. Witch should be able to control anyone and make them visit. They can control Jailor, Medium, Mayor etc. These roles will appear to visit on Lookout and Tracker wills and will also be able to visit a Veteran.

No comment

Godfather: Roleblock immune
Do you really think Don Corleone would abandon his responsibilities and be swayed by a hooker? No. The Godfather is the leader of the Mafia for a reason. Giving the Godfather roleblock immunity would else reduce the chance of an Escort deadlock.

Interesting but right now Mafia's all-in-all a mess, this would not fix it.

Blackmailer: Players can now talk during their last words once they've been voted guilty.
You've been blackmailed, but are you not gonna say anything after you've been sentenced to death?

You're thinking in terms of lore and not balance.

Jailor: Targets can be targetted (besides from protection roles)
Once Jailed targets have left their Jailed cells, there's no reason why players should not be able to target them. What I suggest is that investigative roles can now invest targets that are jailed and jailed targets can be killed once they left Jail. If the Jailor executes, the target will still not be able to be protected in anyway.

I don't like this.

Plaguebearer: No longer reveals to town when it becomes Pestilence.
I love this role and believe it is near perfect in design. But how often does it win? 5%? Somewhat understandable, Neutral Killing roles require more skill and should never have a super high win rate like Town or Mafia. But, I believe the Plaguebearer needs that extra day and it should not be instantly revealed to the town that Pestilence has come. Often when this is announced, Pestilence doesn't have any time to do anything and the town gets desperate to lynch Pestilence. Most of the time, by the time you've become Pestilence, you're doom. "5 claimed Survivor, he's Pestilence" and then you instantly get lynched. The town shouldn't find out about Pestilence until Pestilence has killed. This would also stop people from saying "DON'T VISIT ANYMORE WE NEED TO CATCH PESTILENCE" Giving Pestilence an extra day would make this role way more balanced and winnable.

No comment

Hex Master: Can Hex an additional player with the Necronomicon, but the 2nd hex isn't lethal
How often do you see a Hex Master perform their unstoppable attack? Never. Exactly, so this role needs a buff. I suggest that on nights the Hex Master has the Necronomicon that they are able to Hex a 2nd player, but this player will not be attacked. Would this make Sheriff & Investigators useless? Idk, prehaps stop the Hex Master from framing their target. I think this one is very much up to debate.


No comment
ak521
Witch
Witch
 
Posts: 52
Joined: Mon Dec 25, 2017 7:31 am

Previous

Return to Role Ideas

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 8 guests

cron