alex1234321 wrote:If a player being researched visited a framed player, it will count as a non-Town visit but not delete the frame.
cob709 wrote:alex1234321 wrote:If a player being researched visited a framed player, it will count as a non-Town visit but not delete the frame.
Though, perhaps there may be a problem with the Historian researching a Framer, Hex Master, or Arsonist, as they'll see that they have visited evil players every night. Is there a way that the information could be less revealing against these roles?
Overall, /support
rakso98 wrote:I like the idea, but I'm not completely convinced.
This would be a hard counter towards non-visiting (or mostly non-visiting) fake claims (e.g psychic, medium, survivor, vigilante, veteran) or almost all Executioner fake claims. It's kind of like investigator in it's power to uncover evils, but even better than that. Also if there is a legit sheriff for example and you know they visited a non-town once during the last three nights (but the sheriff found everyone inno), now you know the sheriff probably checked someone evil.
Maybe it's overpowered, or maybe not, but it seems quite powerful at least.
alex1234321 wrote:cob709 wrote:alex1234321 wrote:If a player being researched visited a framed player, it will count as a non-Town visit but not delete the frame.
Though, perhaps there may be a problem with the Historian researching a Framer, Hex Master, or Arsonist, as they'll see that they have visited evil players every night. Is there a way that the information could be less revealing against these roles?
Overall, /support
What if checking a framed player took away the frame? The number of non-Town visits would still probably be inflated for those roles, but some of the framed players might be clear if you visited them before the Framer/HM/Arso. Also other TI roles could check frames (or at least Framer frames) to make them go away.
I don't think making it immune to frames would be a good idea since Framer is already a super weak role. Do you have any other ideas?
alex1234321 wrote:Edit: I've been thinking about more ways that it can interact with Framer/Arso/HM without immediately outing those roles. I think the best way to do it is to make those roles immune to their own frames. So if a Framer visits one evil role and three Town roles, the Historian would see that the player visited one non-Town role.
cob709 wrote:alex1234321 wrote:cob709 wrote:alex1234321 wrote:If a player being researched visited a framed player, it will count as a non-Town visit but not delete the frame.
Though, perhaps there may be a problem with the Historian researching a Framer, Hex Master, or Arsonist, as they'll see that they have visited evil players every night. Is there a way that the information could be less revealing against these roles?
Overall, /support
What if checking a framed player took away the frame? The number of non-Town visits would still probably be inflated for those roles, but some of the framed players might be clear if you visited them before the Framer/HM/Arso. Also other TI roles could check frames (or at least Framer frames) to make them go away.
I don't think making it immune to frames would be a good idea since Framer is already a super weak role. Do you have any other ideas?alex1234321 wrote:Edit: I've been thinking about more ways that it can interact with Framer/Arso/HM without immediately outing those roles. I think the best way to do it is to make those roles immune to their own frames. So if a Framer visits one evil role and three Town roles, the Historian would see that the player visited one non-Town role.
Seeing as Consigliere is immune to the Framer's and Disguiser's actions, I agree that this solution is sensible.
rakso98 wrote:I still think that it's way too powerful, and would be by far the most powerful TI in the game. You can usually combine your information with the information from other players and previous results (and scum-reading) to lynch the non-town. For example if you find that an investigator has visited one evil player (out of three players), it's usually quite easy to deduce who the non-town is from the three players. Once you lynch the non-town, you have two confirmed townies. Then the next night you check a transporter and know that they have visited five unique players, one of which is the transporter themselves, one which is the Historian, and one which is a confirmed townie (thanks to the Historians results) from the previous day. Your results come back that the transporter has visited two evil players, and now you know exactly who the evil players are. This is just an example, but do you see what I mean?
I like the general concept though. It also buffs the framer, and I could see this working as a Psychic replacement!
Here's how I would change the role/abilities description (so that getting rid of non-town from a list of someone's visits doesn't automatically confirm the other players as town):
"Research one player's visiting history each night, seeing if they have visited non-Town members over the course of the game."
alex1234321 wrote:If you visit scum, the ability is useless.
alex1234321 wrote: If you visit TP, you're going to force that player to out themself. Evil players can fakeclaim Historian to fish for claims.
alex1234321 wrote: Even if the Historian picks a TI that already claimed, its results are going to be similar to Psychic results but maybe slightly stronger.
alex1234321 wrote: it has to be smart in who it targets in order to get meaningful results.
alex1234321 wrote:Note: This role could function as either a Spy or Psychic rework, but I decided to make it its own role since it doesn't perfectly fit the core mechanics of either of those roles.
Role Name:
Historian
Role Alignment:
Town Investigative
Abilities:
Research one player's visiting history each night, seeing how many times they have visited non-Town members over the course of the game.
Attributes:
You may only research each player once per game.
You may not research anyone night one.
If your target visits a non-Town member the night you research them, it will count towards their total.
Goal:
Lynch every criminal and evildoer.
Win Conditions:
Same as other Town members.
Additional Information:
If a player being researched visited a framed player, it will count as a non-Town visit but not delete the frame.
If you research a Framer, Arsonist, or Hex Master, you will not be fooled by their frames.
If you research someone other than your intended target (due to Witch or Transporter) you will still be able to research your actual target later in the game but not your intended target.
alex1234321 wrote:Historian featured in the test today both as a fakeclaim and a real role. I was pleasantly surprised both by how easy it was to fakeclaim and the fact that it didn't seem OP and actually seemed slightly UP.
The main question that came up about how the role should work is its priority. Should it be able to see a non-town visit the night it researches its target? If so, then should it visit N1? Based on the test results, I think it would be fair to allow a N1 visit and same-night checking. Compared to Sheriff, a N1 Historian check would give better results but would require the Historian to check a visiting Townie and effectively communicate with that player to find who they visited.
Alternatively, the Historian could be buffed to allow multiple checks on one person. This would likely be OP unless they aren't allowed to visit one person in consecutive nights. Still, this could lead to it checking someone every other night to see how many scum there are between a player's last two visits.
I'm going to make a poll to see what the community thinks about this.
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