syjfwbaobfwl wrote:/no support
This is very complicated and once again its super OP
Townie asks for protection
Ambusher captures all TPs (including trans) and since he roleblocks not even crusader can kill it, which means you get no consecuenses for your visits other than steping into a veteran
I'm not sure if you understand the role correctly. I added an example and changed some of the language to make it more clear. A Crusader would be able to kill the Ambusher when they attempt to capture players. However, this would somewhat counter Jailor meta because protective roles would have to risk being captured by the Ambusher and killed the next night.
Mafia attacks the townie
Boom TP are completely useless
TPs don't have to protect people who ask for protection. Besides making reads, they can decide who to protect based on the roles they claim and can still protect Jailor claims at the risk of being ambushed just like they can right now.
This is way more swingy than the current ambusher because if this role exists, no one can be protected in any way if ambusher is alive
The Mafia wouldn't necessarily want to attack the player that they capture especially since most of the time the Ambusher would only capture 1-2 players. Also, the Ambusher captures nobody if they target someone who is not visited.
It would be a lot better if ambusher just got the cautious thing
Notification is removed
If more than 1 person visits your target, you dont attack (you still visit though)
That still gives Mafia more KPN, which is massively swingy, and does not meaningfully remove the swing caused by Ambusher hoping for one and exactly one visitor.
syjfwbaobfwl wrote:Ok now I get it, it sounds fine that way, but I think the investigative ability isnt necesary, its a MK, not MS.
Tbh that ability would fit well in consig
alex1234321 wrote:syjfwbaobfwl wrote:Ok now I get it, it sounds fine that way, but I think the investigative ability isnt necesary, its a MK, not MS.
Tbh that ability would fit well in consig
Do you still think the roleblocking is a problem? If I had to choose between killing a less important person with no chance of a TP over a more important player while risking TP, I would usually pick the less important player and bypass TP. As it stands, my rework has the potential to block TP every night except N1 which feels OP to me. What do you think about limiting the number of uses or not allowing it to capture and kill in the same night?
I think the biggest mechanical problem right now is the roleblocking and how it has the potential to weaken or even neutralize TP roles. After that is fixed, we can focus on balance. I added the investigative ability so that the Ambusher can have an idea of who they are killing and make better decisions, but removing that ability would create new strategies involving an Ambusher trying to get players to claim so I'd be open to removing it.
Do you think a 3-shot Ambusher with no investigative ability is UP? Or is it OP because it's still too strong against TPs?
syjfwbaobfwl wrote:alex1234321 wrote:syjfwbaobfwl wrote:Ok now I get it, it sounds fine that way, but I think the investigative ability isnt necesary, its a MK, not MS.
Tbh that ability would fit well in consig
Do you still think the roleblocking is a problem? If I had to choose between killing a less important person with no chance of a TP over a more important player while risking TP, I would usually pick the less important player and bypass TP. As it stands, my rework has the potential to block TP every night except N1 which feels OP to me. What do you think about limiting the number of uses or not allowing it to capture and kill in the same night?
I think the biggest mechanical problem right now is the roleblocking and how it has the potential to weaken or even neutralize TP roles. After that is fixed, we can focus on balance. I added the investigative ability so that the Ambusher can have an idea of who they are killing and make better decisions, but removing that ability would create new strategies involving an Ambusher trying to get players to claim so I'd be open to removing it.
Do you think a 3-shot Ambusher with no investigative ability is UP? Or is it OP because it's still too strong against TPs?
What about removing the rb, and making that the first 2 times it bypasses TP and trans
But from third time the attack can be protected against
EvilPudding wrote:Like the consort, this role has a couple flaws and I believe it’s not really useful. please make it balanced, make it more congruent to juggernaut or something
EvilPudding wrote:Like the consort, this role has a couple flaws and I believe it’s not really useful. please make it balanced, make it more congruent to juggernaut or something
cookies4you wrote:EvilPudding wrote:Like the consort, this role has a couple flaws and I believe it’s not really useful. please make it balanced, make it more congruent to juggernaut or something
I hope you're joking. Consort is literally the best Random Mafia role that can spawn.
syjfwbaobfwl wrote:Boom TP are completely useless
Brilliand wrote:Directly contradicting Paradox12 - the thing that makes the current Ambusher bad is the fact that it's a bonus kill for the Mafia. That's why it needs its hideous downsides - though it's debatable whether those downsides are enough.
Unfortunately, I do agree that this role is overly complicated. I'd remove the "roleblocking" bit entirely, and change it to a passive (non-visiting) attack that ignores protection but doesn't ignore natural defense (like the Poisoner's Necronomicon attack). Of course this should still replace the Mafia's kill for that night. (The Mafioso and Godfather should get some message to indicate that this replacement happened.)
Learning the sub-alignments is a bit odd - giving this role exactly the Lookout's ability to see visitor names should be sufficient (in addition to the ability to kill one person the following night).
OreCreeper wrote:For catching TP, we have consig and bmer
OreCreeper wrote:I think it's fine that mafia has ambusher, with cautious, it's probably around as strong as mayor and mafia definitely needs a few strong roles to keep up with jailor and mayor.
alex1234321 wrote:In that case, should there still be limited uses? I don't want this to make TP useless but it should weaken them depending on the circumstance.
alex1234321 wrote:I made the Ambusher learn the sub-alignments as a buff so that it has a better idea of who to kill. I don't think it's a buff for the sake of a buff because knowing sub-alignments can help the Ambusher make the right decision in the event that multiple players visit its target. If that's still too weak, I'd be okay with it learning exact roles.
Brilliand wrote:alex1234321 wrote:In that case, should there still be limited uses? I don't want this to make TP useless but it should weaken them depending on the circumstance.
I think no. It's added complexity, and I don't like the thought of the Mafia facing a TP loop in the endgame with no way to break it because the Ambusher ran out of charges.
Do you think this could lead to TP becoming almost useless in Ambusher games? I'm worried that if an Ambusher manages to hit someone who is visited almost every night, which isn't too hard, the Mafia might prefer to let the Ambusher take the kill and not worry about TP than kill whoever they were planning to. This would probably need testing to see how it would play out in a real game.alex1234321 wrote:I made the Ambusher learn the sub-alignments as a buff so that it has a better idea of who to kill. I don't think it's a buff for the sake of a buff because knowing sub-alignments can help the Ambusher make the right decision in the event that multiple players visit its target. If that's still too weak, I'd be okay with it learning exact roles.
Think of how complicated the readout from the Ambusher's ability will be though! In any case, I don't think the Ambusher needs to be told anything about the players' roles; just knowing that they visited your target is likely to be enough information (especially if you were on the Jailor).
I don't think it would be too bad. It would be something like "You captured alex1234321! They are a Town Protective role." Sometimes you might get two players of different alignments visiting the same player, and depending on the situation you might prefer to hit someone of one alignment over the other. I don't think this is necessary with unlimited charges, but I would prefer to have limited charges and have the investigative ability supplement it.
alex1234321 wrote:Do you think this could lead to TP becoming almost useless in Ambusher games? I'm worried that if an Ambusher manages to hit someone who is visited almost every night, which isn't too hard, the Mafia might prefer to let the Ambusher take the kill and not worry about TP than kill whoever they were planning to. This would probably need testing to see how it would play out in a real game.
OreCreeper wrote:You should remove the part where everyone who visits the ambusher's attack target is role-blocked because that doesn't really make any sense and it feels like it got added as an afterthought, and overall adds to the detriment of the entire concept.
Brilliand wrote:alex1234321 wrote:Do you think this could lead to TP becoming almost useless in Ambusher games? I'm worried that if an Ambusher manages to hit someone who is visited almost every night, which isn't too hard, the Mafia might prefer to let the Ambusher take the kill and not worry about TP than kill whoever they were planning to. This would probably need testing to see how it would play out in a real game.
No. Using that strategy, the Mafia loses most of their choice in who they kill, and it's impossible to kill the Jailor through an Ambusher attack.
Something like that might happen in the early game, but it would be specifically for the purpose of killing TPs, not something expected to make the TPs irrelevant.
Oh, there's something I'm not clear on - does performing the Ambusher attack prevent the Ambusher from forming a new list of targets in the same night? It makes some difference whether this is an every-other-night thing or an every-night thing (though I'm not actually sure which I would prefer).
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