Tactial mafia killing (Syj's version)

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Tactial mafia killing (Syj's version)

Postby syjfwbaobfwl » Mon Jan 04, 2021 9:00 pm

I like the idea of TMK, its better than the current mafioso GF combo, so I wanted to show my idea about it

The Godfather/mafioso choses who to kill that night, and as a second target he votes for someone to perform the kill (can target themselves), the other mafia members select their target, they can select a mafia member to vote for them to make the kill

If the godfather/mafioso is jailed, they can still select who to kill but not vote on the killer

If someone votes for themselves, it counts as 4 votes

In case of tie, the godfather/mafoso will perform the kill

During the day, the mafia (except of godfather) have a coin ability to "promote" themselves, if the godfather dies, a random mafia member (prioritizing players who promoted themselves) becomes mafioso.

Adjustments

Godfather

Mafia (Killing)

Attributes
-You will know feedback notifications that the other mafia members recive

This includes all notifications, including things like consigliere's results

Mafioso
Works the same as godfather but without defense or detection immunity or knowing other mafia's notifications

Mafioso may no longer spawn naturally, it will only appear if someone is promoted
As a result, mafioso on normal lists is replaced by a random mafia slot
Last edited by syjfwbaobfwl on Sat Oct 08, 2022 7:36 am, edited 11 times in total.
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Re: My TMK idea

Postby deadlyblack » Mon Jan 04, 2021 10:32 pm

I like the GF order kill thing, this gives mafia functionality similar to Coven, since they all have possibility to get necro and have higher kill capability. though this doesnt directly increase kill count, it adds a new level of deception in the mafia.
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Re: My TMK idea

Postby syjfwbaobfwl » Fri Jan 08, 2021 9:18 pm

Bump
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Re: My TMK idea

Postby BigSlug » Fri Jan 08, 2021 10:01 pm

I like the concept of TMK but only if it is implemented well. This seems like a really cool concept for it. I support.
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Re: My TMK idea

Postby CapWarrior2 » Fri May 13, 2022 11:28 am

Ties should be settled by whoever voted first, like I suggested in Cookazoo2's post (Ties with no GF in this case).
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Re: My TMK idea

Postby syjfwbaobfwl » Fri May 13, 2022 11:29 am

Edits: removed consig changes since that belongs to a separate post
Changed mafioso rework
Changed the order in case of tie
Added acepted mafia roles from tg
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Re: My TMK idea

Postby syjfwbaobfwl » Sat Oct 08, 2022 7:34 am

Made some more edits to make it more simple and easier to understand
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Re: Tactial mafia killing (Syj's version)

Postby Soulshade55r » Sat Oct 08, 2022 8:38 am

I don't think it's the best way of "changing" a more simple system would eliminate promotion all together.

Generally you can implement it similar to how the sk "cautious" button works.
Where lets say your Consigilere, decides to kill tonight, they would just press the button then it would give them the TMK, making who they target ded instead of investigating them.

If multiple mafia try to kill their could be a priority system, personally first who presses the button should gain the Killing action would work best, It would also give out a message to everyone, maybe you can only press it a certain amount of times to avoid spamming, but it would say something along the lines "Player C, Has taken up arms". Action would result in a failure if the second player tried to kill (lets say player b also tried to kill but did i later then player c, they would just take no action or giving a message that they cannot select a kill target while Player C is attempting to kill"

The only problems I can see is griefing or throwing, which is already something the Godfather can do, at least if a mafioso goes afk or are making bad kills instead now you actually have a chance of making the shots, so it's a double edge sword, I also don't think we should be balacing around awful players but I know it would be a concern regardless.

Godfather/Mafioso would need a total rework, I believe Godfather should generally be entirely reworked, I dislike how the role just functions as a weird sheriff counter thats night immune, other then that it counters role blocks aslong as the mafioso exists, the role needs a change, Mafioso can become a Mafia action replicator and "maf Amne".
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Re: Tactial mafia killing (Syj's version)

Postby syjfwbaobfwl » Thu Oct 13, 2022 8:06 pm

Soulshade55r wrote:I don't think it's the best way of "changing" a more simple system would eliminate promotion all together.

Generally you can implement it similar to how the sk "cautious" button works.
Where lets say your Consigilere, decides to kill tonight, they would just press the button then it would give them the TMK, making who they target ded instead of investigating them.

If multiple mafia try to kill their could be a priority system, personally first who presses the button should gain the Killing action would work best, It would also give out a message to everyone, maybe you can only press it a certain amount of times to avoid spamming, but it would say something along the lines "Player C, Has taken up arms". Action would result in a failure if the second player tried to kill (lets say player b also tried to kill but did i later then player c, they would just take no action or giving a message that they cannot select a kill target while Player C is attempting to kill"

The only problems I can see is griefing or throwing, which is already something the Godfather can do, at least if a mafioso goes afk or are making bad kills instead now you actually have a chance of making the shots, so it's a double edge sword, I also don't think we should be balacing around awful players but I know it would be a concern regardless.

Godfather/Mafioso would need a total rework, I believe Godfather should generally be entirely reworked, I dislike how the role just functions as a weird sheriff counter thats night immune, other then that it counters role blocks aslong as the mafioso exists, the role needs a change, Mafioso can become a Mafia action replicator and "maf Amne".


This version skips all the work of having to rework GF and mafioso entirely, and tbh I dont see a problem with GF, it is a standard in almost all games to have a mafia role with some immunities

Also I am 90% sure the mafioso becoming a mafia amne/whatever was tested and it didnt work
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Re: Tactial mafia killing (Syj's version)

Postby Soulshade55r » Thu Oct 13, 2022 9:32 pm

syjfwbaobfwl wrote:
Soulshade55r wrote:I don't think it's the best way of "changing" a more simple system would eliminate promotion all together.

Generally you can implement it similar to how the sk "cautious" button works.
Where lets say your Consigilere, decides to kill tonight, they would just press the button then it would give them the TMK, making who they target ded instead of investigating them.

If multiple mafia try to kill their could be a priority system, personally first who presses the button should gain the Killing action would work best, It would also give out a message to everyone, maybe you can only press it a certain amount of times to avoid spamming, but it would say something along the lines "Player C, Has taken up arms". Action would result in a failure if the second player tried to kill (lets say player b also tried to kill but did i later then player c, they would just take no action or giving a message that they cannot select a kill target while Player C is attempting to kill"

The only problems I can see is griefing or throwing, which is already something the Godfather can do, at least if a mafioso goes afk or are making bad kills instead now you actually have a chance of making the shots, so it's a double edge sword, I also don't think we should be balacing around awful players but I know it would be a concern regardless.

Godfather/Mafioso would need a total rework, I believe Godfather should generally be entirely reworked, I dislike how the role just functions as a weird sheriff counter thats night immune, other then that it counters role blocks aslong as the mafioso exists, the role needs a change, Mafioso can become a Mafia action replicator and "maf Amne".


This version skips all the work of having to rework GF and mafioso entirely, and tbh I dont see a problem with GF, it is a standard in almost all games to have a mafia role with some immunities

Also I am 90% sure the mafioso becoming a mafia amne/whatever was tested and it didnt work


>Mafioso should act as a ability user and mafia amne, who tested this and how didn't it "work"?
Godfather should be reworked, instead of this, again I don't think we need a forced GF on a role list if we implemented TMK, I also don't think we need GF to be "hidden" from sheriff if roles like disguiser exist already, you could prolly make GF a strongman or something, Current GF is such a weird role that only exists to counter jails/rb's and sheriffs? sometimes Sks...

I also feel like your ability makes it weird and complicated where your having mafia members vote on who to kill, while mines is just a mafia member presses "the kill" button and kills it's pretty simple.
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Re: Tactial mafia killing (Syj's version)

Postby MysticMismagius » Thu Oct 13, 2022 9:44 pm

Godfather not being detection immune would be kinda weird imo since that's like
The thing that defines Godfather in most classic Mafia games
Also it doesn't need the nerf

As far as giving Mafioso special abilities I've always been partial to giving it a special perk to its kill that no other Mafia member would get (e.g. making Mafioso kills Ninja/Astral, Powerful, or RB immune)
Just because Mafioso has always been defined by performing the Mafia kill in ToS and thus it should be the best at killing in a world where it is no longer quasi-required to do so
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Re: Tactial mafia killing (Syj's version)

Postby Soulshade55r » Thu Oct 13, 2022 10:02 pm

MysticMismagius wrote:Godfather not being detection immune would be kinda weird imo since that's like
The thing that defines Godfather in most classic Mafia games
Also it doesn't need the nerf

As far as giving Mafioso special abilities I've always been partial to giving it a special perk to its kill that no other Mafia member would get (e.g. making Mafioso kills Ninja/Astral, Powerful, or RB immune)
Just because Mafioso has always been defined by performing the Mafia kill in ToS and thus it should be the best at killing in a world where it is no longer quasi-required to do so

I think maybe giving mafioso one or two kills is fine, that bypass certain things like being a ninja, it having it constantly makes it pretty bad and a weird nerf to tracker/Lo/escorts

I've always disliked how "Godfather" works, being immune to sheriff? like why is that a gimmick, he's not immune to other investigative roles? whats the point of screwing over sheriffs?? Seriosuly though, I feel like roles such as Disguiser do the whole hiding gimmick better... (just please for the love of god rework spy, its so dumb and ruins disg from being a hider role). I don't know Godfather is pretty outdated for a role in the first place.
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Re: Tactial mafia killing (Syj's version)

Postby MysticMismagius » Thu Oct 13, 2022 10:20 pm

Soulshade55r wrote:
MysticMismagius wrote:Godfather not being detection immune would be kinda weird imo since that's like
The thing that defines Godfather in most classic Mafia games
Also it doesn't need the nerf

As far as giving Mafioso special abilities I've always been partial to giving it a special perk to its kill that no other Mafia member would get (e.g. making Mafioso kills Ninja/Astral, Powerful, or RB immune)
Just because Mafioso has always been defined by performing the Mafia kill in ToS and thus it should be the best at killing in a world where it is no longer quasi-required to do so
I think maybe giving Mafioso one or two kills is fine, that bypass certain things like being a ninja, it having it constantly makes it pretty bad and a weird nerf to Tracker/LO/Escorts
I'd be fine with that, not like it'd be the first Mafia role with limited-shot abilities

Soulshade55r wrote:I've always disliked how "Godfather" works, being immune to Sheriff? Like why is that a gimmick, he's not immune to other investigative roles? Whats the point of screwing over Sheriff? Seriously though, I feel like roles such as Disguiser do the whole hiding gimmick better...
Fair enough
Framer is also reviled for affecting only some TI and not others
I just think making GF ping sus to Sheriff isn't super necessary
There's bigger fish to fry

Soulshade55r wrote:(just please for the love of god rework Spy, its so dumb and ruins Disguiser from being a hider role).
Disguiser is the one Mafia role that isn't completely thrashed by Spy because it makes them ignore the visits of the chosen Mafia member
(unless that Mafia member is disguised as a Coven member in which case it will make the visit look like it came from Coven, which is also useful)
But rework Spy anyway because it's OPAF
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Re: Tactial mafia killing (Syj's version)

Postby LordDrakyle » Fri Oct 14, 2022 3:46 am

Soulshade55r wrote:I don't think it's the best way of "changing" a more simple system would eliminate promotion all together.

Generally you can implement it similar to how the sk "cautious" button works.
Where lets say your Consigilere, decides to kill tonight, they would just press the button then it would give them the TMK, making who they target ded instead of investigating them.

If multiple mafia try to kill their could be a priority system, personally first who presses the button should gain the Killing action would work best, It would also give out a message to everyone, maybe you can only press it a certain amount of times to avoid spamming, but it would say something along the lines "Player C, Has taken up arms". Action would result in a failure if the second player tried to kill (lets say player b also tried to kill but did i later then player c, they would just take no action or giving a message that they cannot select a kill target while Player C is attempting to kill"

The only problems I can see is griefing or throwing, which is already something the Godfather can do, at least if a mafioso goes afk or are making bad kills instead now you actually have a chance of making the shots, so it's a double edge sword, I also don't think we should be balacing around awful players but I know it would be a concern regardless.

Godfather/Mafioso would need a total rework, I believe Godfather should generally be entirely reworked, I dislike how the role just functions as a weird sheriff counter thats night immune, other then that it counters role blocks aslong as the mafioso exists, the role needs a change, Mafioso can become a Mafia action replicator and "maf Amne".


Regarding the issue of a griefer, why not a similar function to how the Vampires handle it where it's voted on collectively who to target? That way even if Mafioso/GF are afk the team can still vote who they want dead and see it done
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Re: Tactial mafia killing (Syj's version)

Postby Soulshade55r » Fri Oct 14, 2022 11:21 am

MysticMismagius wrote:
Soulshade55r wrote:
MysticMismagius wrote:Godfather not being detection immune would be kinda weird imo since that's like
The thing that defines Godfather in most classic Mafia games
Also it doesn't need the nerf

As far as giving Mafioso special abilities I've always been partial to giving it a special perk to its kill that no other Mafia member would get (e.g. making Mafioso kills Ninja/Astral, Powerful, or RB immune)
Just because Mafioso has always been defined by performing the Mafia kill in ToS and thus it should be the best at killing in a world where it is no longer quasi-required to do so
I think maybe giving Mafioso one or two kills is fine, that bypass certain things like being a ninja, it having it constantly makes it pretty bad and a weird nerf to Tracker/LO/Escorts
I'd be fine with that, not like it'd be the first Mafia role with limited-shot abilities

Soulshade55r wrote:I've always disliked how "Godfather" works, being immune to Sheriff? Like why is that a gimmick, he's not immune to other investigative roles? Whats the point of screwing over Sheriff? Seriously though, I feel like roles such as Disguiser do the whole hiding gimmick better...
Fair enough
Framer is also reviled for affecting only some TI and not others
I just think making GF ping sus to Sheriff isn't super necessary
There's bigger fish to fry

Soulshade55r wrote:(just please for the love of god rework Spy, its so dumb and ruins Disguiser from being a hider role).
Disguiser is the one Mafia role that isn't completely thrashed by Spy because it makes them ignore the visits of the chosen Mafia member
(unless that Mafia member is disguised as a Coven member in which case it will make the visit look like it came from Coven, which is also useful)
But rework Spy anyway because it's OPAF

Pretty sure spy shows Disg visit both to targets, that's what I've heard anyway. I'm pretty sure it actively visiting Mafia just hurts mafia, might be wrong on that.

Sheriff actually needs a Buff Imo, right now sheriff has to deal with so many detection immunities, I'd also argue basic immunity only really screws over Serial Killers who correctly scum read the GF. Maybe it's good for the sake of vigilantes not being able to solo kill all mafia... but i really dislike how other nks can just ignore GF, while if sk accidently hits them (esp late game) they just lose, I don't know gf with TMK just doesn't need like a role we need its main purpose has always been a counter to Jails and rbs (with mafioso).

LordDrakyle wrote:
Soulshade55r wrote:I don't think it's the best way of "changing" a more simple system would eliminate promotion all together.

Generally you can implement it similar to how the sk "cautious" button works.
Where lets say your Consigilere, decides to kill tonight, they would just press the button then it would give them the TMK, making who they target ded instead of investigating them.

If multiple mafia try to kill their could be a priority system, personally first who presses the button should gain the Killing action would work best, It would also give out a message to everyone, maybe you can only press it a certain amount of times to avoid spamming, but it would say something along the lines "Player C, Has taken up arms". Action would result in a failure if the second player tried to kill (lets say player b also tried to kill but did i later then player c, they would just take no action or giving a message that they cannot select a kill target while Player C is attempting to kill"

The only problems I can see is griefing or throwing, which is already something the Godfather can do, at least if a mafioso goes afk or are making bad kills instead now you actually have a chance of making the shots, so it's a double edge sword, I also don't think we should be balacing around awful players but I know it would be a concern regardless.

Godfather/Mafioso would need a total rework, I believe Godfather should generally be entirely reworked, I dislike how the role just functions as a weird sheriff counter thats night immune, other then that it counters role blocks aslong as the mafioso exists, the role needs a change, Mafioso can become a Mafia action replicator and "maf Amne".


Regarding the issue of a griefer, why not a similar function to how the Vampires handle it where it's voted on collectively who to target? That way even if Mafioso/GF are afk the team can still vote who they want dead and see it done


For mafia this would be annoying, they all got to perform abilities ontop of that you have janitors and esp forgers where unless you know all the votes you can use your action, it would generally just be a pain to implement a voting system for mafia, but if works i wouldn't be aganist it.

I'd also want GF/Mafioso reworked so that once mafioso or gf iss dead you can't get screwed over by chain jailing.
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Re: Tactial mafia killing (Syj's version)

Postby WaveAqualei » Tue Oct 18, 2022 3:25 pm

MysticMismagius wrote:
Soulshade55r wrote:(just please for the love of god rework Spy, its so dumb and ruins Disguiser from being a hider role).
Disguiser is the one Mafia role that isn't completely thrashed by Spy because it makes them ignore the visits of the chosen Mafia member
(unless that Mafia member is disguised as a Coven member in which case it will make the visit look like it came from Coven, which is also useful)
But rework Spy anyway because it's OPAF

I'd argue that Jani is also not countered by Spy.
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Re: Tactial mafia killing (Syj's version)

Postby syjfwbaobfwl » Tue Oct 18, 2022 4:58 pm

WaveAqualei wrote:
MysticMismagius wrote:
Soulshade55r wrote:(just please for the love of god rework Spy, its so dumb and ruins Disguiser from being a hider role).
Disguiser is the one Mafia role that isn't completely thrashed by Spy because it makes them ignore the visits of the chosen Mafia member
(unless that Mafia member is disguised as a Coven member in which case it will make the visit look like it came from Coven, which is also useful)
But rework Spy anyway because it's OPAF

I'd argue that Jani is also not countered by Spy.


In the new list it indirectly counters jani
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Re: Tactial mafia killing (Syj's version)

Postby WaveAqualei » Wed Oct 19, 2022 9:09 am

The rolelist indirectly nerfs Jani, but Spy doesn't counter it.
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Re: Tactial mafia killing (Syj's version)

Postby syjfwbaobfwl » Wed Oct 19, 2022 11:35 am

WaveAqualei wrote:The rolelist indirectly nerfs Jani, but Spy doesn't counter it.


It does, since jani confirms the RM slot spy can tell much easier who is MS

No visit: bmer or MS rbed/jailed
Silent visit: consig
Roleblocked: consort
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Re: Tactial mafia killing (Syj's version)

Postby WaveAqualei » Wed Oct 19, 2022 1:32 pm

I guess so? Idk
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Re: Tactial mafia killing (Syj's version)

Postby Soulshade55r » Wed Oct 19, 2022 2:08 pm

syjfwbaobfwl wrote:
WaveAqualei wrote:The rolelist indirectly nerfs Jani, but Spy doesn't counter it.


It does, since jani confirms the RM slot spy can tell much easier who is MS

No visit: bmer or MS rbed/jailed
Silent visit: consig
Roleblocked: consort

yeah but like the knowing the RM mafia roles only really matters to investigators, of course theirs some importance knowing if theirs a consort and some other mafia roles, either way Janitor is still fine, I'd argue it's actually still pretty good and wouldn't need changing, same goes to forger (which is less known then Jani but can be easily found out).

A forced MS isn't a good idea generally because it's a way of BMG knowing that Mafia deception is weaker but instead of actually fixing MD roles they rather make one forced MS because MS is better, obviously TMK and not having a forced mafioso/godfather would actually fix a lot of this also reworking spy, but yeah I doubt that, a lot of my hopes at this point for the game have completely died out considering how rushed this ranked season was put on.
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Re: Tactial mafia killing (Syj's version)

Postby syjfwbaobfwl » Wed Oct 19, 2022 4:15 pm

Soulshade55r wrote:
syjfwbaobfwl wrote:
WaveAqualei wrote:The rolelist indirectly nerfs Jani, but Spy doesn't counter it.


It does, since jani confirms the RM slot spy can tell much easier who is MS

No visit: bmer or MS rbed/jailed
Silent visit: consig
Roleblocked: consort

yeah but like the knowing the RM mafia roles only really matters to investigators, of course theirs some importance knowing if theirs a consort and some other mafia roles, either way Janitor is still fine, I'd argue it's actually still pretty good and wouldn't need changing, same goes to forger (which is less known then Jani but can be easily found out).

A forced MS isn't a good idea generally because it's a way of BMG knowing that Mafia deception is weaker but instead of actually fixing MD roles they rather make one forced MS because MS is better, obviously TMK and not having a forced mafioso/godfather would actually fix a lot of this also reworking spy, but yeah I doubt that, a lot of my hopes at this point for the game have completely died out considering how rushed this ranked season was put on.


No, town being unaware of what are RMs opens a lot of posibilities like claiming framed, saying that someone was forged, pretending to be bmed, etc
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Re: Tactial mafia killing (Syj's version)

Postby Soulshade55r » Wed Oct 19, 2022 4:19 pm

syjfwbaobfwl wrote:
Soulshade55r wrote:
syjfwbaobfwl wrote:
WaveAqualei wrote:The rolelist indirectly nerfs Jani, but Spy doesn't counter it.


It does, since jani confirms the RM slot spy can tell much easier who is MS

No visit: bmer or MS rbed/jailed
Silent visit: consig
Roleblocked: consort

yeah but like the knowing the RM mafia roles only really matters to investigators, of course theirs some importance knowing if theirs a consort and some other mafia roles, either way Janitor is still fine, I'd argue it's actually still pretty good and wouldn't need changing, same goes to forger (which is less known then Jani but can be easily found out).

A forced MS isn't a good idea generally because it's a way of BMG knowing that Mafia deception is weaker but instead of actually fixing MD roles they rather make one forced MS because MS is better, obviously TMK and not having a forced mafioso/godfather would actually fix a lot of this also reworking spy, but yeah I doubt that, a lot of my hopes at this point for the game have completely died out considering how rushed this ranked season was put on.


No, town being unaware of what are RMs opens a lot of posibilities like claiming framed, saying that someone was forged, pretending to be bmed, etc

claiming framed is also nerfed by spies existence, pretending to be bm'd is nerfed by spies existence, It doesn't matter that much.
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Soulshade55r
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Re: Tactial mafia killing (Syj's version)

Postby syjfwbaobfwl » Wed Oct 19, 2022 8:55 pm

Soulshade55r wrote:
syjfwbaobfwl wrote:
Soulshade55r wrote:
syjfwbaobfwl wrote:
WaveAqualei wrote:The rolelist indirectly nerfs Jani, but Spy doesn't counter it.


It does, since jani confirms the RM slot spy can tell much easier who is MS

No visit: bmer or MS rbed/jailed
Silent visit: consig
Roleblocked: consort

yeah but like the knowing the RM mafia roles only really matters to investigators, of course theirs some importance knowing if theirs a consort and some other mafia roles, either way Janitor is still fine, I'd argue it's actually still pretty good and wouldn't need changing, same goes to forger (which is less known then Jani but can be easily found out).

A forced MS isn't a good idea generally because it's a way of BMG knowing that Mafia deception is weaker but instead of actually fixing MD roles they rather make one forced MS because MS is better, obviously TMK and not having a forced mafioso/godfather would actually fix a lot of this also reworking spy, but yeah I doubt that, a lot of my hopes at this point for the game have completely died out considering how rushed this ranked season was put on.


No, town being unaware of what are RMs opens a lot of posibilities like claiming framed, saying that someone was forged, pretending to be bmed, etc

claiming framed is also nerfed by spies existence, pretending to be bm'd is nerfed by spies existence, It doesn't matter that much.


If spy doesnt exists then janitor still fucks over mafia for the same reason

You can still claim bmed but mafia still has a lot of posibilities removed since it outs its existance, with 2 RM this wasnt a very big problem but with guaranteed MS it is
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Re: Tactial mafia killing (Syj's version)

Postby MysticMismagius » Wed Oct 19, 2022 9:11 pm

That's a role list problem, not a Janitor problem
A post-TMK world with GF + 3RM would not have this issue and Janitor would be fine
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