Biggest Problems With Roles - Mafia Support edition

[cookies4you]

Do you actually have data to back your claims up (for how often trans/hypno appears in games) or was that just something you made up?

I used math.

1 - (4/5)*(12/13)^3 = 0.37

This is the minimum chance of getting at least one Transporter in any game, aka no Unique roles are randomly spawned to thin out the role pool.

1 - (8/9)^2 = 0.21

This is the minimum chance of getting at least one Hypnotist in any game, aka an Ambusher doesn't spawn.

Even if that was true, hypno can keep transporters in check because it makes it sus when transporters claim to trans themselves, and hypno can just have one mafia member claim transed on one night to make it look like 2 people were "transed". The only way transporters can confirm themselves as not hypno right now is if they consistently transport 2 different players on multiple nights, and if the jailor tells the trans claim to trans 2 random people, there's no guarantee that neither of the 2 people they choose are mafia who can just lie about being transed.

Using your own Mafia as transport fodder is the easiest way to out them when you're dead.

The problem with Hypnotist, like most Random Mafia, is that Spy and Lookout exists. It's bad enough that "transporting" someone paints a giant Mafia visit on them, but Hypnotist can't self-target, meaning all it takes is a single Night to break their claim. An Investigator can also break their claim in two Nights by just having them self-transport and double-checking them.

Also, it's not true that most roles cannot confirm themselves without external help. Sheriff can find mafia to make themselves look legit. Can it be bussing? Yes, but it makes the sheriff look more legit. Escort can confirm themselves as one out of a few selected roles just by doing their ability. TKs just need to kill someone to prove themselves, and BG/Doc can confirm themselves via a successful protection and a lookout seeing their visit would make them look legit. But transporter doesn't even have the ability to make themselves look legit. For one, they can't go on TP/LO requests to prove themselves like TP can, since they don't want to get the TP/LO request killed. Making mafia kill themselves is rare, and when that happens, most people will sus forger/unlucky witch. TIs are unlikely to check the same player twice. Honestly though, I wouldn't have as much of a problem with that if it weren't so easily abusable. You failed to address the problems that arise with an excuse as easy as silent trans. Any evil caught by a TI could just claim they transed themselves as trans and get another townie lynched, and maybe even get the TI killed as well. Sheriff is an easy claim as well but it's not as broken as that.

6/10 non-Unique roles need external help to confirm themselves: Escort, Investigator, Spy, Vigilante, Bodyguard, and Doctor.

Investigator and Escort are indistinguishable from Consigliere and Consort without a Spy to mark off Mafia visits.

Spy needs to get a message with its bugging to separate itself from Mafia, but it usually confirms itself via passive messages anyways because faking Spy hurts the Mafia more than it helps them.

Vigilante needs to shoot anyone to something to verify itself, hopefully an Evil or a Bodyguard willing to lose their vest. Unlike Veteran, Vigilante can't kill people indiscriminately and needs to work around its suicide clause.

Bodyguard shares an investigation result with Godfather and only gets confirmed by a LO when it's dead or on the Jailor 24/7.

Doctor fares better than Bodyguard and gets confirmed the same way.

[alex1234321]

I think MK can be fixed just by adding Tactical Mafia Kills. It would free up another RM slot and allow Mafioso to no longer be an objectively weaker Godfather.

[cob709]

Godfather & Mafioso: The two roles should have roleblock & control immunity. Mafia's factional kill needs to be consistent.
Ambusher: The player that died should not know the play that ambushed them, as Medium would just info feed. Otherwise, it's balanced enough.

So escort becomes outright useless, the point of the combo is that they have partial RB inmunity, and mafioso has control inmunity if gf is alive and not rbed

Also rb and control inmunity shouldnt be given to random roles just to make them more powerful, those inmunities are to prevent game-breaking results (like vet being rbed while alerting)

Escort can roleblock Mafia Support & Deception(except consort) roles, and they can roleblock Ambusher too.

[syjfwbaobfwl]

Godfather & Mafioso: The two roles should have roleblock & control immunity. Mafia's factional kill needs to be consistent.
Ambusher: The player that died should not know the play that ambushed them, as Medium would just info feed. Otherwise, it's balanced enough.

So escort becomes outright useless, the point of the combo is that they have partial RB inmunity, and mafioso has control inmunity if gf is alive and not rbed

Also rb and control inmunity shouldnt be given to random roles just to make them more powerful, those inmunities are to prevent game-breaking results (like vet being rbed while alerting)

Escort can roleblock Mafia Support & Deception(except consort) roles, and they can roleblock Ambusher too.

That reduces utility a lot, and rb inmunity is to prevent non-sensical results from happening, not to just buff the role

[Blackwolfe99]

GF: I don't have many problems with this role. It's the strongest of the MKs, which is part of why I'm a big supporter of Tactical Mafia.
Mafioso: Basic killing role so the Mafia can always have a killer. Not really a bad role, just a weaker GF or SK. The problem with the role is the forced promotion mechanic that seems to be random or based on lobby placement, and often breaks the Mafia when it takes a role that is going to be continually useful - such as Consig, leaves a role with no use - such as a janitor without any charges, or just breaks the fake claim for roles like Consort.
Ambusher: The forced reveal to victims and visitors is too much of a double edged sword for the role, and the randomness of the kill when multiple visitors are present is also a problem.

[TheFluffyWaffleV2]

Fix MK (if it really needs fixing tbh) by letting GF choose who becomes Mafioso at the start of the night as a day ability

[Blackwolfe99]

Fix MK (if it really needs fixing tbh) by letting GF choose who becomes Mafioso at the start of the night as a day ability

Or as many of us have asked for, Tactical Mafia, and so it's explained: Tactical Mafia is a set up where any member of the Mafia can choose to not use their ability for the night to instead perform the Mafia kill. Only one member can attack per night, so it's not like the Mafia can have a 4KPN just because.

[cob709]

Godfather & Mafioso: The two roles should have roleblock & control immunity. Mafia's factional kill needs to be consistent.
Ambusher: The player that died should not know the play that ambushed them, as Medium would just info feed. Otherwise, it's balanced enough.

So escort becomes outright useless, the point of the combo is that they have partial RB inmunity, and mafioso has control inmunity if gf is alive and not rbed

Also rb and control inmunity shouldnt be given to random roles just to make them more powerful, those inmunities are to prevent game-breaking results (like vet being rbed while alerting)

Escort can roleblock Mafia Support & Deception(except consort) roles, and they can roleblock Ambusher too.

That reduces utility a lot, and rb inmunity is to prevent non-sensical results from happening, not to just buff the role

That's the point.

Also, that's not entirely correct. Immunities can be used to prevent game-breaking results, but they can also be used to improve roles.

[Blackwolfe99]

Godfather & Mafioso: The two roles should have roleblock & control immunity. Mafia's factional kill needs to be consistent.
Ambusher: The player that died should not know the play that ambushed them, as Medium would just info feed. Otherwise, it's balanced enough.

So escort becomes outright useless, the point of the combo is that they have partial RB inmunity, and mafioso has control inmunity if gf is alive and not rbed

Also rb and control inmunity shouldnt be given to random roles just to make them more powerful, those inmunities are to prevent game-breaking results (like vet being rbed while alerting)

Escort can roleblock Mafia Support & Deception(except consort) roles, and they can roleblock Ambusher too.

That reduces utility a lot, and rb inmunity is to prevent non-sensical results from happening, not to just buff the role

That's the point.

Also, that's not entirely correct. Immunities can be used to prevent game-breaking results, but they can also be used to improve roles.

Yes, but in this case, you would just be doing it to improve two roles without any regards to actual balancing.

[Cookazoo2]

Ducking in here to also pose the discussion question "What happens to the Mafioso if we implement TMK? What about the Godfather?"

I'm mostly against converting people into day ability users because it doesn't allow night negotiation or even private discussion between Mafia members before it all.

Also, I'd prefer for a player to instead volunteer to do the TMK instead of the GF on the theory that "if I don't have a good use for my ability I should instead target someone with the kill."

In addition, if it's still the Godfather's choice and he does it if nobody volunteers, then it allows you to punish Godfathers who try to send their teammates into obvious vet baits "just to check"

[alex1234321]

Does anyone here object to Tactical Mafia Kills?

[syjfwbaobfwl]

Does anyone here object to Tactical Mafia Kills?

No, if someone says they object they are lying or dumb

[cob709]

Spoiler:

Godfather & Mafioso: The two roles should have roleblock & control immunity. Mafia's factional kill needs to be consistent.
Ambusher: The player that died should not know the play that ambushed them, as Medium would just info feed. Otherwise, it's balanced enough.

So escort becomes outright useless, the point of the combo is that they have partial RB inmunity, and mafioso has control inmunity if gf is alive and not rbed

Also rb and control inmunity shouldnt be given to random roles just to make them more powerful, those inmunities are to prevent game-breaking results (like vet being rbed while alerting)

Escort can roleblock Mafia Support & Deception(except consort) roles, and they can roleblock Ambusher too.

That reduces utility a lot, and rb inmunity is to prevent non-sensical results from happening, not to just buff the role

That's the point.

Also, that's not entirely correct. Immunities can be used to prevent game-breaking results, but they can also be used to improve roles.

Yes, but in this case, you would just be doing it to improve two roles without any regards to actual balancing.

I don't understand why you are making this statement. Could you please explain?
The Mafia must have consistent kills, so granting them roleblock/control immunity will ensure that they are always capable of functioning. It works especially well since Witch is now a guaranteed slot in Ranked.

[syjfwbaobfwl]

Godfather & Mafioso: The two roles should have roleblock & control immunity. Mafia's factional kill needs to be consistent.
Ambusher: The player that died should not know the play that ambushed them, as Medium would just info feed. Otherwise, it's balanced enough.

So escort becomes outright useless, the point of the combo is that they have partial RB inmunity, and mafioso has control inmunity if gf is alive and not rbed

Also rb and control inmunity shouldnt be given to random roles just to make them more powerful, those inmunities are to prevent game-breaking results (like vet being rbed while alerting)

Escort can roleblock Mafia Support & Deception(except consort) roles, and they can roleblock Ambusher too.

That reduces utility a lot, and rb inmunity is to prevent non-sensical results from happening, not to just buff the role

That's the point.

Also, that's not entirely correct. Immunities can be used to prevent game-breaking results, but they can also be used to improve roles.

Not with rb and control inmunity, and those roles dont need it because with the combo mafioso is control inmune and both have partial rb inmunity

No role has inmunities just to make it stronger

Vet, CL, trans, escort, etc have a reason to have that inmunity

[cob709]

Godfather & Mafioso: The two roles should have roleblock & control immunity. Mafia's factional kill needs to be consistent.
Ambusher: The player that died should not know the play that ambushed them, as Medium would just info feed. Otherwise, it's balanced enough.

So escort becomes outright useless, the point of the combo is that they have partial RB inmunity, and mafioso has control inmunity if gf is alive and not rbed

Also rb and control inmunity shouldnt be given to random roles just to make them more powerful, those inmunities are to prevent game-breaking results (like vet being rbed while alerting)

Escort can roleblock Mafia Support & Deception(except consort) roles, and they can roleblock Ambusher too.

That reduces utility a lot, and rb inmunity is to prevent non-sensical results from happening, not to just buff the role

That's the point.

Also, that's not entirely correct. Immunities can be used to prevent game-breaking results, but they can also be used to improve roles.

Not with rb and control inmunity, and those roles dont need it because with the combo mafioso is control inmune and both have partial rb inmunity

No role has inmunities just to make it stronger

Vet, CL, trans, escort, etc have a reason to have that inmunity

They need RB immunity to prevent escort and witch from stopping the Mafia's factional kill.

Pestilence and Serial Killer have roleblock immunity to make them stronger. However, this is not relevant.

[Blackwolfe99]

By mechanical works, the GF-Mafioso pair has rb immunity since the Mafioso can attack should the GF be roleblocked, and the Mafioso can't be forced to xhangetargets from the GF's target should they be controlled. Granting these roles any higher cc protection would make them too strong for their faction.

[CapWarrior2]

Gf: No problems.
Mafioso: Has to be a Godfathers little minion.
Ambusher: You basically can't get a kill without making it a 1 for 1, which mafia should be aiming for a 2 for 1 (2 town die before 1 mafia dies) then they will be on track for a reliable victory, as long as their isn't much swing from their on.

[syjfwbaobfwl]

[Quote]They need RB immunity to prevent escort and witch from stopping the Mafia's factional kill.

Pestilence and Serial Killer have roleblock immunity to make them stronger. However, this is not relevant.
[Quote]

With pest you are right, but not with SK, SK is because it doesn make sense to attack both the rber and original target and then get rbed if they are cautious

The thing is that they already have partial control and rb inmunity and they dont really need the inmunity because rb RM is pointless most of times

Bmer doesnt blackmails untill N4 unless they are dumb

Consort inmune

Consig not very useful

Hypno can help to spot the fake claim

Forger/jani very useful

Framer: not neede because framer is an ass

Disg: only useful if a mafia is getting investigated

[OreCreeper]

Gf: No problems.
Mafioso: Has to be a Godfathers little minion.
Ambusher: You basically can't get a kill without making it a 1 for 1, which mafia should be aiming for a 2 for 1 (2 town die before 1 mafia dies) then they will be on track for a reliable victory, as long as their isn't much swing from their on.

Actually 2 1-for-1 mislynches means mafia wins (assuming no other mafia dies aside from the 2 mafia killed in the 1-for-1). Lets say mafia kills every night. N1, N2, and N3, mafia kills. D2 and D3 mafia cause a mislynch, and N2 and N3 jailor executes a mafia member. It would be 4v4 by D4. This means that 1-for-1s are sufficient for the mafia to win. And for ambusher, it's basically a 2-for-1, since if you can get a legit townie mislynched (mafia should cooperate), mafia and you both kill an extra townie, so by the end of D2, if all goes well, 3 townies should be dead. The more you think about it, the more you realize that people are underrating ambusher a lot. Especially in a hard 9v6 (with no third side), a second night kill is incredibly valuable.

[BigSlug]

Godfather and Mafioso are hard to rate. I agree Ambusher is in a good spot currently. The risk makes ambushers not be complete idiots, but also lets good ambushers get a good reward for mafia: 2KPN. Current Ranked and Old Ranked both need Ambusher to be balanced to work effectively, or it becomes as swingy as old retri. In current ranked, you need your N1 kill, an exe push/mislynch, and for town to not get a night kill n2. Then you have evil majority. With leavers and other factors like witch/vigi, vet, jailor witched into exeing, ect. which makes that much easier. So adding on a pretty much confirmed 2nd kill by ambusher not having risk of being outed makes amby too swingy. In old maf, this was a problem with NK but NK also balanced the KPN because evil majority had to worry about outing themselves to NK, and NE's power was pretty random as well. SK gave evils 2KPN but could hit maf, WW took a bit to ramp up but could get massive KPN spikes, and Arso played the long game with a silent looming threat over the entire town, mafia and even NEs. Now imagine the powerful KPN of an NK, mafs 1kpn, and ambushers low risk high reward potential extra kill. Sure, this wouldn't guarantee mafia wins, this would just drastically lower town winrates.

As for GF/Mafioso, TMK is asking a lot. If they want to try it, go for it, but test it out THOROUGHLY first. Make a gamemode out of it as well, so the community can gather feedback. And then of course, make GF/Mafioso stronger and more unique roles.

[Cookazoo2]

Godfather and Mafioso are hard to rate. I agree Ambusher is in a good spot currently. The risk makes ambushers not be complete idiots, but also lets good ambushers get a good reward for mafia: 2KPN. Current Ranked and Old Ranked both need Ambusher to be balanced to work effectively, or it becomes as swingy as old retri. In current ranked, you need your N1 kill, an exe push/mislynch, and for town to not get a night kill n2. Then you have evil majority. With leavers and other factors like witch/vigi, vet, jailor witched into exeing, ect. which makes that much easier. So adding on a pretty much confirmed 2nd kill by ambusher not having risk of being outed makes amby too swingy. In old maf, this was a problem with NK but NK also balanced the KPN because evil majority had to worry about outing themselves to NK, and NE's power was pretty random as well. SK gave evils 2KPN but could hit maf, WW took a bit to ramp up but could get massive KPN spikes, and Arso played the long game with a silent looming threat over the entire town, mafia and even NEs. Now imagine the powerful KPN of an NK, mafs 1kpn, and ambushers low risk high reward potential extra kill. Sure, this wouldn't guarantee mafia wins, this would just drastically lower town winrates.

As for GF/Mafioso, TMK is asking a lot. If they want to try it, go for it, but test it out THOROUGHLY first. Make a gamemode out of it as well, so the community can gather feedback. And then of course, make GF/Mafioso stronger and more unique roles.

MS Edition soon.

I'd agree with you on the fronts of GF and Mafioso in TMK. If we got PTR open again to test TMK, we need to keep testing what Mafioso becomes.
A thought I had was that the Mafioso could get a 1-shot Astral if they did the TMK or become a dead Mafia role, silently. Retri should be reworked into town amnesiac anyway.

Godfather... the suggestions I've heard haven't been good. Personally, I think they should still be a dedicated shot-caller for the kill, but with TMK now nobody is forced to do the kill, which means that the Godfather might get sent into their own vet bait choice. It's also a game health thing. That might also change how Classic plays, too. We'll see, since that can't change, really.

[Cookazoo2]

If you have any good suggestions, let me know, I'm trying to collect a bunch of grand ideas to create a comprehensive community balancing list.

[syjfwbaobfwl]

If you have any good suggestions, let me know, I'm trying to collect a bunch of grand ideas to create a comprehensive community balancing list.

Dont forget the coven roles

[Cookazoo2]

If you have any good suggestions, let me know, I'm trying to collect a bunch of grand ideas to create a comprehensive community balancing list.

Dont forget the coven roles

Those come after all Classic roles.

[cob709]

If you have any good suggestions, let me know, I'm trying to collect a bunch of grand ideas to create a comprehensive community balancing list.

Dont forget the coven roles

Neutral Evils need rebalancing.