Biggest Problems With Roles - Mafia Support edition

[Cookazoo2]

Please offer your opinions and feedback. Any posts made will help me edit this list.

Sometimes, I look at this subforum and think: Wow, everyone has a lot of ideas on what's bad about current roles!

So let's consolidate those and create some reworks that fit all of those criteria.

First thing we do, ask a question.

WHAT'S YOUR BIGGEST PROBLEM WITH:
Consort?
Blackmailer?
Consigliere?

PREVIOUS "BIG PROBLEMS"
Sheriff: Boring, not universal in detection, but it's balanced enough
Investigator: Dictates evil claims.
Lookout: RNG and too easy to confirm.
Spy: Automatic, powerful.
Doctor: None.
Bodyguard: None.
Vigilante: Balanced. Guilt is the complaint here.
Veteran: Balanced.
Vampire Hunter: Far too good.
Jailor: Too easy to confirm. Too powerful. While Town needs a leader, this needs a nerf.
Escort: countered by 2 MKs, pretty OK otherwise
Transporter: a topic of hot debate. too confirmable, but making it unconfirmable suddenly makes it super easy to claim as scum.
Mayor: too confirmable? what's that supposed to mean?
Medium: relies on dead not leaving. also "requires no skill" like spy.
Retributionist: relies entirely on the setup when it was supposed to counter said things
Godfather: too powerful and dictates another role's fun level
Mafioso: not fun
Ambusher: divided opinion on it

Let's start with just those, once we've got some figures going I'll throw in the rest.

[cob709]

Sheriff: I'm pretty okay with sheriff as it is right now.
Investigator: Information they get to receive is too specific
Lookout: Too easily confirmable and can confirm other players too.
Spy: Requires no skill.

[syjfwbaobfwl]

I pretty much have the same than cob

Sheriff: perfectly fine, not OP nor weak and its the most basic role of social deduction games

Invest: its the role that leads the meta on what evil claims what roles more commonly

LO: easily confirmable, hard to fake and can confirm others too easily

Spy: active is weak af and passive is OP and needs scumreading only (which isnt even needed by the spy itself)

[alex1234321]

Sheriff: No major problems, maybe increase detection immunity among NK roles
Investigator: Makes it much harder for evils to claim outside of 1-2 Town roles
Lookout: Makes it very easy to confirm Townies, which helps drive Jailor meta although this wouldn't be as bad if there were fewer confirmable Town roles
Spy: Punishes Mafia for using their night abilities by effectively confirming targets

[CapWarrior2]

Sheriff: Fine.
Investigator: To limited claimspace.
Lookout: RNG when more then 3 people visit, makes ranked games very swingy.
Spy: IMO just remove role until a viable solution is figured out, as MV and CV really op.

[Stiersquid]

Sheriff: Finish your shitposts
Investigator: Finish your shitposts
Lookout: Finish your shitposts
Spy: Finish your shitposts

[OreCreeper]

Please offer your opinions and feedback. Any posts made will help me edit this list.

Sometimes, I look at this subforum and think: Wow, everyone has a lot of ideas on what's bad about current roles!

So let's consolidate those and create some reworks that fit all of those criteria.

First thing we do, ask a question.

WHAT'S YOUR BIGGEST PROBLEM WITH:
Sheriff?
Investigator?
Lookout?
Spy?

Let's start with just those, once we've got some figures going I'll throw in the rest.

Sheriff: Role is very boring and unbalanced because it doesn't actually leave any claimspace at all for the evils it can find.

Investigator: Does it's job, is not that OP, takes some skill to fake-claim but isn't that difficult, solid role overall

Lookout: RNG bad

Spy: Automatic role, doesn't take skill to perform its ability

[syjfwbaobfwl]

Please offer your opinions and feedback. Any posts made will help me edit this list.

Sometimes, I look at this subforum and think: Wow, everyone has a lot of ideas on what's bad about current roles!

So let's consolidate those and create some reworks that fit all of those criteria.

First thing we do, ask a question.

WHAT'S YOUR BIGGEST PROBLEM WITH:
Sheriff?
Investigator?
Lookout?
Spy?

Let's start with just those, once we've got some figures going I'll throw in the rest.

Sheriff: Role is very boring and unbalanced because it doesn't actually leave any claimspace at all for the evils it can find.

Investigator: Does it's job, is not that OP, takes some skill to fake-claim but isn't that difficult, solid role overall

Lookout: RNG bad

Spy: Automatic role, doesn't take skill to perform its ability

You say that sheriff is strong because it closes claimspace but I am pretty sure I saw you in a post saying that sheriff is by far the weakest TI

[Cookazoo2]

I am currently editing the OP with the list of problems and adding new roles to the focus board.

[CapWarrior2]

I actually don't have any problems with Doctor or Bodyguard. I think they are perfectly balanced in every way tbh.

[cob709]

I actually don't have any problems with Doctor or Bodyguard. I think they are perfectly balanced in every way tbh.

I agree with this statement. Town is rewarded for choosing targets to protect wisely, while mafia is punished for making poor decisions.
TPs also prevent critical roles from dying too early.

[syjfwbaobfwl]

I dont have problems with doc and bg tbh, they protect people and are rewarded with delaying evils getting maj if they play well

Pls continue with this post

[Cookazoo2]

Updated.

Conclusion on TP:
It's fine.

[syjfwbaobfwl]

Vigi: its ok, no problem with it

Vet: has the second strongest ability of the game but you need either luck or charisma +1000 to work it correctly

VH: vamps need a hard counter but not a hard hard counter

Jailor: we all know its op, im ok with town having a leader, but jailor still being op

[cob709]

Vigilante: Well balanced
Veteran: Well balanced
VH: Hardcounters vampire, needs to be nerf'd.
Jailor: Too easily confirmable. Needs a huge nerf.

[CapWarrior2]

Vigilante: I love.
Veteran: I don't love near as much but Its balanced.
Vampire Hunter: Too powerful. Should be unique and not able to see vamp chat.
Jailor: Jailor is too op.

[alex1234321]

Vigilante: Guilt should be changed so that players can’t shoot after killing Townie
Veteran: No changes necessary imo. Maybe give it two alerts but even that isn’t needed
Vampire Hunter: Hardcounters Vampires
Jailor: Objectively more powerful Vigilante that can easily self confirm

[OreCreeper]

Please offer your opinions and feedback. Any posts made will help me edit this list.

Sometimes, I look at this subforum and think: Wow, everyone has a lot of ideas on what's bad about current roles!

So let's consolidate those and create some reworks that fit all of those criteria.

First thing we do, ask a question.

WHAT'S YOUR BIGGEST PROBLEM WITH:
Sheriff?
Investigator?
Lookout?
Spy?

Let's start with just those, once we've got some figures going I'll throw in the rest.

Sheriff: Role is very boring and unbalanced because it doesn't actually leave any claimspace at all for the evils it can find.

Investigator: Does it's job, is not that OP, takes some skill to fake-claim but isn't that difficult, solid role overall

Lookout: RNG bad

Spy: Automatic role, doesn't take skill to perform its ability

You say that sheriff is strong because it closes claimspace but I am pretty sure I saw you in a post saying that sheriff is by far the weakest TI

I did not say it is strong, I said it is unbalanced.

[Cookazoo2]

TS edition soon

[Cookazoo2]

updated: TS edition active

[OreCreeper]

Escort: With both MK alive, pretty much completely useless for any purpose other than self-confirmation, which this role is extremely good at with spy. With only one MK alive, this role is probably one of the best TS roles you can hope for at that point since it can singlehandedly shut down the entire mafia.

Transporter: As easily confirmable as escort, but much more powerful. Power level is more balanced since it isn't as dependent on what mafia's setup is like, but the role's broken as shit sometimes because it can infinite self-protect.

Mayor: Auto-confirmed, but I guess that's the purpose of the role... If you can accept that mayor is meant to be stronger and a leader for the town, it's actually pretty balanced especially compared to all of the other power roles.

Medium: This role is on the weaker side but it does have its uses. Dependent on dead players not leaving but that's kinda the point of the role. Other than that and cross-confirmation it's alright.

Retributionist: This role's design is god-awful. It is literally completely dependent on the town roles that spawn, making the role inherently RNG-based. If all RTs are vigis, this role is as good as a jailor. If you get stuff like medium, mayor, trans, vet, etc as the RTs, this role is pretty much a citizen. One of the most unbalanced roles in the game (not as in OP or UP, but dependency on random-factors).

[alex1234321]

Escort: Power dependent on number of MKs left, Tactical Mafia Kills would fix this
Transporter: Easily confirmable, make transports silent and the role would be good
Mayor: The entire point is confirmability, core mechanics were removed to make the role less broken
Medium: Confirmable when there are two of them and generally weak, remove last wills and make it unique
Retributionist: Swingy based on which roles die, making it a silent Town Amnesiac would make it better imo

[OreCreeper]

Escort: Power dependent on number of MKs left, Tactical Mafia Kills would fix this
Transporter: Easily confirmable, make transports silent and the role would be good
Mayor: The entire point is confirmability, core mechanics were removed to make the role less broken
Medium: Confirmable when there are two of them and generally weak, remove last wills and make it unique
Retributionist: Swingy based on which roles die, making it a silent Town Amnesiac would make it better imo

For transporter: silent transports would completely ruin the role since it can screw over TI results and no one would know. Also, hypnos rely on the notification to reliably claim transporter.

For medium: what do you mean by "remove last wills"? That's a core part of the game and removing it would probably not be a good idea.

For retributionist: that makes it not really a retributionist anymore... lol.

[alex1234321]

Escort: Power dependent on number of MKs left, Tactical Mafia Kills would fix this
Transporter: Easily confirmable, make transports silent and the role would be good
Mayor: The entire point is confirmability, core mechanics were removed to make the role less broken
Medium: Confirmable when there are two of them and generally weak, remove last wills and make it unique
Retributionist: Swingy based on which roles die, making it a silent Town Amnesiac would make it better imo

For transporter: silent transports would completely ruin the role since it can screw over TI results and no one would know. Also, hypnos rely on the notification to reliably claim transporter.
Transporters would have to coordinate with the rest of the Town. Players would also have to think before moving people, which isn't a bad thing imo because Transporter could still be used effectively as a pseudo-TP or even a TK. If there was no notification, it would be even easier for hypnos (or literally any other scum role for that matter) to claim Transporter. The more claimspace, the better.

For medium: what do you mean by "remove last wills"? That's a core part of the game and removing it would probably not be a good idea.
I think it is important to have a notepad, which was added, but last wills should not show upon death. If you're a Townie, you should share information and risk being killed by scum. Last wills make it easy for players to keep quiet until they die, which reduces the importance of the day chat. Plus, this would be a needed buff to the Medium.

For retributionist: that makes it not really a retributionist anymore... lol.
Balance > lore

Responses in bold

[cob709]

Escort: The role itself is balanced. The Escort sacrifices their own action to also stop someone else's action. The problem of locking down the Mafia does not lie within the Escort, rather, it lies within the Mafia's killing function.

Transporter: The role is quite powerful. It is too easy to confirm. The real problem is when the Mafia are incapable of killing the transporter because they cannot target their own members. Once again, the problem lies within the Mafia's abilities, not the role itself. However, it should still be nerf'd to be less confirmable.

Mayor: This role is too confirmable. There should never be "confirmed" players in a game about deception and figuring out player's alignments. However, I can tolerate one confirmable role if everything else is reworked to be less so.

Medium: This has the same problem as Spy. It's an info-feeder and requires no skill. Additionally, it should be classified as Town Investigative.

Retributionist: This role is practically a Universal Backup for the Town. It's also a sort of JOAT. Meh role tbh. I really don't mind.