Coven Charmer

[ak521]

Reposting

Find role card HERE

Role Name: Charmer

Role Alignment: Coven Evil

Special Attributes:
Attack: Basic
Defense: None

Abilities: Charm a player each night, forcing them to visit you that night.

Attributes:

• Players that visit you or that you charm two times are dealt a Basic attack to.
• Charmed targets will not know they were charmed.
• With the Necronomicon, charms repeat on the subsequent night without you needing to visit the target.

Goal: Kill all who would oppose the Coven.

Notifications:

• You have decided to charm <x> tonight.
• You instead decided to charm <y> tonight.
• You have changed your mind.
• <Z> died last night. They were killed by the Charmer.
• You were seduced by a Charmer! You have died!

Additional Info:

Investigator Results:
Your target could be a Framer, Vampire, Jester, Hex Master, or Charmer.

Sheriff Results:
(without Necronomicon) Your target is suspicious.

Roleblock immune.

Targets that are control immune will not be affected; however, an additional charm or the target visiting the Charmer on their own decision will cause the Charmer to attack them.

Targets charmed once before that visit the Charmer, or that visit the Charmer twice, will be dealt an Astral Basic Attack to.

All attacks executed by the Charmer are Astral.

Charming has a lower priority than a controlled target. A Coven Leader will override the Charmer. The Basic killing will still apply after an additional visit/charm.





Arguments:
"This is a nerfed CL"
No, CL will notify targets that they were witched. This will not. This makes the Charmer mostly a Deception role. For Investigative roles, you can charm a LO and make them seem fake. It's actually pretty strong.
"The killing opportunity is so limited
Causes hysteria if you call TPLO.

~~ Edits ~~

Previously this role had Basic Defense w/o Necronomicon. That was dropped.
I recently dropped the attack requirement to 2 nights and then the attack power to Basic. The previous role had a Powerful attack on the third visit/charm.
Additionally I buffed the Necronomicon buff from a Basic Attack on every visit.
Please comment thoughts.

Added RB immunity (implied before)

Included some nuances under Additional Information.

[cob709]

Original Post

[ak521]

Original Post

Already said I was reposting it, but I fixed a lot of its criticisms and listed the ones that were in the prev. thread in the arguments section

[Soulshade55r]

Seems kinda weak compared to the other coven roles

[syjfwbaobfwl]

Seems like a better HM for TIs, except that you visit the TI instead of the framed

[lemonader666]

Seems kinda weak compared to the other coven roles

Except for the fact that it has BASIC DEFENSE AHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH OH GOD OH FUCK

[syjfwbaobfwl]

Seems kinda weak compared to the other coven roles

Except for the fact that it has BASIC DEFENSE AHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH OH GOD OH FUCK

Wait, I just realized that

No, only the "leader" of the evil faction (in this case CL) should have defense

[Soulshade55r]

Seems kinda weak compared to the other coven roles

Except for the fact that it has BASIC DEFENSE AHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH OH GOD OH FUCK

Meh basic def doesn't come into play as much fir evils but cool yeah sure

[ak521]

Seems kinda weak compared to the other coven roles

Except for the fact that it has BASIC DEFENSE AHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH OH GOD OH FUCK

Meh basic def doesn't come into play as much fir evils but cool yeah sure

One big criticism was that if you charm a vigi you die.

[syjfwbaobfwl]

Seems kinda weak compared to the other coven roles

Except for the fact that it has BASIC DEFENSE AHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH OH GOD OH FUCK

Meh basic def doesn't come into play as much fir evils but cool yeah sure

One big criticism was that if you charm a vigi you die.

So what? Your problem if you had the bad luck to hit vigi N1 or if you played badly/vigi played good and you targeted them

[ak521]

bump

[ak521]

bump

[ak521]

bump

Also wondering how lowering attack level to Basic and making the visit/charm nights to 2 would affect the role. Thoughts???

[runningwiththepower]

Hey, I really like this role


Re-reading what people originally said, I do see how it could be "just a NERFed CL"
...but I don't think that is necessarily a bad thing?
I really agree with the points you raised in this post about how it is more of a Deceptive role.

I could maybe make the case for a more interesting Necro powerup but thats w/e

And I defo like the idea of 2 charms==Attack (would lead to an interesting dilemma of "Should I kill the person I charmed last night or charm someone else to screw with Town?")

/support IMHO

Are you in the Testing Grounds Discord? You might get more role feedback if you post about it there, in the #role ideas channel.

[WaveAqualei]

I like this one a lot

/support

[ak521]

Hey, I really like this role


Re-reading what people originally said, I do see how it could be "just a NERFed CL"
...but I don't think that is necessarily a bad thing?
I really agree with the points you raised in this post about how it is more of a Deceptive role.

I could maybe make the case for a more interesting Necro powerup but thats w/e

And I defo like the idea of 2 charms==Attack (would lead to an interesting dilemma of "Should I kill the person I charmed last night or charm someone else to screw with Town?")

/support IMHO

Are you in the Testing Grounds Discord? You might get more role feedback if you post about it there, in the #role ideas channel.

Updated Necro powerup
Thanks for feedback

[ak521]

Hey, I really like this role


Re-reading what people originally said, I do see how it could be "just a NERFed CL"
...but I don't think that is necessarily a bad thing?
I really agree with the points you raised in this post about how it is more of a Deceptive role.

I could maybe make the case for a more interesting Necro powerup but thats w/e

And I defo like the idea of 2 charms==Attack (would lead to an interesting dilemma of "Should I kill the person I charmed last night or charm someone else to screw with Town?")

/support IMHO

Are you in the Testing Grounds Discord? You might get more role feedback if you post about it there, in the #role ideas channel.

Also, I don't use Discord. Would love it if you could share it there.

[runningwiththepower]

I defo like the more unique Necro powerup!

You defo should get the TG Discord though! We have weekly game nights where we play a modded ToS client that adds in certain popular fan submitted roles that pass through the Role Poll
If you're role is popular (which I think it will be <3 ) then we will end up playing it & testing it out

Just something to consider

The Discord Invite is: https://discord.com/invite/EVS55Zb

[ak521]

I am thinking of adding Basic Defense or a Basic Shield with the Necro powerup.
This would, in my eyes, be effective against Vigilantes.

Thoughts?

[Cabohhh]

I am thinking of adding Basic Defense or a Basic Shield with the Necro powerup.
This would, in my eyes, be effective against Vigilantes.

Thoughts?

This is somewhat similar to the Succubus role I made, but I'm not gonna get hung up over it cause you put a new twist on it with the necro power.

I don't think that the Charmer should get defence. There should be some risk as to using them, like how Veteran kills Town and how Ambusher reveals themself.

[ak521]

Hey,

Succubus was put out way after this role.

I also agree with you about the defense.

[alex1234321]

I like this role but I think it's a little strong. Generally Coven roles should get around 0.5 KPN, which this role gets in the worst case scenario. You could nerf it by only allowing the double kill to apply to non-visiting roles. That way it has a mechanism to kill both visiting and non-visiting roles. Alternatively, you could completely remove the double kill and allow it to charm multiple players each night.

[ak521]

I like this role but I think it's a little strong. Generally Coven roles should get around 0.5 KPN, which this role gets in the worst case scenario. You could nerf it by only allowing the double kill to apply to non-visiting roles. That way it has a mechanism to kill both visiting and non-visiting roles. Alternatively, you could completely remove the double kill and allow it to charm multiple players each night.

Hey, what do you mean double kill? Double visit to kill?

I think you may have misunderstood the role.

[alex1234321]

I like this role but I think it's a little strong. Generally Coven roles should get around 0.5 KPN, which this role gets in the worst case scenario. You could nerf it by only allowing the double kill to apply to non-visiting roles. That way it has a mechanism to kill both visiting and non-visiting roles. Alternatively, you could completely remove the double kill and allow it to charm multiple players each night.

Hey, what do you mean double kill? Double visit to kill?

I think you may have misunderstood the role.

Yeah that’s what I meant. Is that how it works?

[ak521]

I like this role but I think it's a little strong. Generally Coven roles should get around 0.5 KPN, which this role gets in the worst case scenario. You could nerf it by only allowing the double kill to apply to non-visiting roles. That way it has a mechanism to kill both visiting and non-visiting roles. Alternatively, you could completely remove the double kill and allow it to charm multiple players each night.

Hey, what do you mean double kill? Double visit to kill?

I think you may have misunderstood the role.

Yeah that’s what I meant. Is that how it works?

The Charmer averages 0.5 KPN. There are certain cases that improve the KPN:
- It can get 1 KPN with the help of the CL pre-Necro. This is balanced since it works similar to a Medusa for this example.
- It can call for TPLO and similar to Arsonist get a lot of targets that would be easy kills. However it must guess which players visits them. Once again, it is limited to 1 KPN
- A player can willingly visit the Charmer, leading to an improved KPN of even higher than 1 if they visit the Charmer multiple times.
Similarly, it has its own downsides
- There is no defense; meaning charming a Vigilante leads to your death.
- The Necro powerup is fun... but it's kind of a Poisoner but with a healable Basic Attack, or in terms of delayed killing. What's not like Poisoner is that the player is kind of roleblocked for both nights. So a bit of a nuance there.
- It has no effect on non-visiting roles

I think that changing the killing to people that visit you twice is a better nerf than what you suggest. This way, it will leave non-visiting roles such as Medium and Retri protected from the Charmer.
The issue with this, is that after the Necro, the Charmer cannot kill these roles.

So, here's the change I propose:

• Charms no longer add to the kill clock of (_/2). Only visits affect this now.
• With the Necro, the automatic Astral charm on the second night will also deliver an Astral Powerful Attack.

I want to discuss this slightly more before making any edit. I think that this version will leave the Charmer a lot weaker but with a more controlled KPN. I'm against the change but if it seems too strong, I have no issue doing the change. What are your thoughts?