Possible Future Role Changes (Discussion)

[LairesTheUnscaled]

First of all, this post is mainly focused on making the playing field feel more fair for everyone, or in another words - average role having more impact on the game than giving all the power to specific roles, spread the powerlevel in across more players, rather than concentrating it on Jailor for example. Right now there is not the issue of balance between Town/Evils as it was in the old rolelist where Town absolutely dominated with Jailor meta and pre-nerf Retributionist/Lookout. It turns out Witch in every game is great way to counter Jailor meta these days and makes 6v6 more coordinated as they are all on the same team unlike before when NK could vote on Mafia fearing they would vote him off after Mafia gained majority.

The problem I see in a lot are games is the powerlevel of specific roles compared to their alternatives. Take TS slot for example - having Mayor or Transporter is much stronger than having Retributionist or Medium. You can't control it, it's just RNG of what you end up with. The larger difference in between the roles in same category, the more are games determined by the "RNG" and less by skill of players. I want to keep the randomness of roles, but I also don't want the RNG aspect completely ruining games that could have been fun.

For example Town getting 4 TS (Transporter, Transporter, Mayor, Escort) is game-winning RNG. All are basically confirmed day 2 and town can start doing "1 for 1" with TK/TP/TI claims. Even if you get "confirmed" as evil, you will still run out of claim space, because there is 5 confirmed town you can't lynch and that makes for very easy lynching, shooting, executions. The only way evils win these extreme RNG situations are by sheer luck or Towns incompetence. Here are some changes I would love to see, since the Balance issues are finally being adressed, like the Random Mafia buffs and inclusion of Ambusher/Hypno into Classic. These are my ideas of possible changes I would love to see in the future:

Jailor:
- After executing a Town member, dies of guilt like Vigilante would.
- Has limited number of 3 jails after executing a Town member, punishing bad execution by putting Jailor's roleblocking ability on a clock, denying permanent roleblock on GF/Mafioso.
- Jailor can't jail same player twice in a row, denying permanent roleblock on GF/Mafioso.

Spy:
- Replace the ability to see Mafia visits with additional bugs. Seeing Mafia visits makes majority of RM unplayable as long as a Spy exists and posts results daily, confirming anyone you visit as non-mafia is just not worth the effect your Mafia role has, except for Ambusher/Janitor/Disguiser. Instead replace that annoying ability with additional bugs on players during night - 2 or 3 bugs each night. 3 seems more balanced, but could be a bit difficult in programming or generally in the theme of ToS, as no role in the game can target more than 2 players during the Night. Only 2 bugs/night seems too little and too weak compared to Lookout or Investigator in terms of powerlevel, so this change could use a little more work. Either way seeing the Mafia visits ability should be nerfed/removed in my opinion.

Investigator:
- After you investigate a evil player, that evil player will be notified at the end of a night, informing him he has been investigated.

Mayor:
- Revealing ability is postponed until the next day. For example - Day 2 you press reveal button, nothing happens, at the start of Day 3 you automatically reveal as Mayor, your ability after revealing stays the same. If you get roleblocked, you do not reveal and have to try again. Also you cannot reveal Day 1.

Transporter:
- Transported targets do not get informed they have been transported. This would make it much harder to confirm as Transporter, easier to fake claim, but still remain strong and extremely impactful in hands of good player.
- You lose the ability to transport yourself, making you vulnerable to attacks after being found.
- Move Transporter from Town Support into Neutral Evil with same win-condition as Witch. Change rolelist of Ranked as follows: Witch -> Witch/Transporter; Executioner -> Executioner/Jester

Retributionist:
- Removed from "unique" roles, allowing multiple town members to become Retributionist in the same game. Unique Retributionist made sense while it had it's old ability, but now after the rework I can't see a good reason for it.

Medium:
- Add 2nd seance
- (unsure about this change) Medium becomes "unique" role. I don't see a point in having more than 1 Medium in games, they get the exact same information and the only thing it allows for is confirming each other, but serves no other purpose. On one hand it's going to be harder to get confirmed the normal way, on the other hand you can hard CC the other Medium claims making it a bit risky to claim Medium as evil, while rewarding that risk with easy role to fake claim.

[cob709]

jailor, mayor, and medium should all just be removed

[LairesTheUnscaled]

jailor, mayor, and medium should all just be removed

Interesting. Why Medium? Jailor/Mayor are pretty iconic so nerf would serve them better in my opinion. Besides, what would replace them in investigative results if they got entirely removed? Entire Investigative results would require overhaul, which I'm not totally against, but also I think the Classic needs MORE roles rather than less.

[CapWarrior2]

Imo Jailor and Mayor should be moved to their own category, that would prevent having them both spawn in the same game. Then obviously Jailor needs a nerf, I feel having the mechanic to suicide when executing a town member should not take place. I like the idea of limiting his jailing, I feel having the Jailor unable to jail 2 times in a row is 50 50 in my mind. Imo it would be easier to remove spy in general atm in ranked. Investigator just needs new list not a nerf like that. Mayor doesn't need to be nerfed, it is fine as it is and in classic even without having a doctor on mayor, you still can utilise the tp on others then. Transporter imo really shouldn't be changed to NE, if anything it would be NC and if so it should defienetly keep it's targets knowing if were transed feature. Retributionist, well simple answer why it should stay unique. What if 3 retris try to use the vigi at the same time? The answer is my point, and is why only other retri that exists is Necro. Definently not a 2nd seance, it's whole iinteraction with the dead needs to be changed.

Im surprised you didn't bring up framer, consigilere or ambusher, as they need to be reworked aswell and rn their rated bad teir because of how useless their ability is. (Ambusher being the best out of those 2, atleast they can nearly guarantee a 1 for 1 whereas framer or consigilere cant

[syjfwbaobfwl]

Jailor: could be but still doesnt convinces me

Mayor: sounds wierd... like capwarror suggested it would be better to move jailor and mayor into their own town alignment and it would fix the swingyness

Invest: wouldnt hurt, maybe for sheriff too

Trans: no yes and no, if you want an evil trans then just add the trickster, silent transports would make the problem of haing 2 misslynches in a row due to idiot trans even worse, like I suggested, just the first target gets the notification, it makes it easier to fake
The self transports its good, give it just one is ok


Retri: no, it would have the same problem than with retri and necro, no one would be able to use a body anf the "player who joined the lobby first" its a bad mechanic

Medium: or just rework medium completely

[syjfwbaobfwl]

jailor, mayor, and medium should all just be removed

Dude stop, very few people wants this, devs obviusly wont remove roles and specially these ones, at this point it looks like you are the type of people that suicide D1 when they get jailor

[Soulshade55r]

First of all, this post is mainly focused on making the playing field feel more fair for everyone, or in another words - average role having more impact on the game than giving all the power to specific roles, spread the powerlevel in across more players, rather than concentrating it on Jailor for example. Right now there is not the issue of balance between Town/Evils as it was in the old rolelist where Town absolutely dominated with Jailor meta and pre-nerf Retributionist/Lookout. It turns out Witch in every game is great way to counter Jailor meta these days and makes 6v6 more coordinated as they are all on the same team unlike before when NK could vote on Mafia fearing they would vote him off after Mafia gained majority.

The problem I see in a lot are games is the powerlevel of specific roles compared to their alternatives. Take TS slot for example - having Mayor or Transporter is much stronger than having Retributionist or Medium. You can't control it, it's just RNG of what you end up with. The larger difference in between the roles in same category, the more are games determined by the "RNG" and less by skill of players. I want to keep the randomness of roles, but I also don't want the RNG aspect completely ruining games that could have been fun.

For example Town getting 4 TS (Transporter, Transporter, Mayor, Escort) is game-winning RNG. All are basically confirmed day 2 and town can start doing "1 for 1" with TK/TP/TI claims. Even if you get "confirmed" as evil, you will still run out of claim space, because there is 5 confirmed town you can't lynch and that makes for very easy lynching, shooting, executions. The only way evils win these extreme RNG situations are by sheer luck or Towns incompetence. Here are some changes I would love to see, since the Balance issues are finally being adressed, like the Random Mafia buffs and inclusion of Ambusher/Hypno into Classic. These are my ideas of possible changes I would love to see in the future:

Jailor:
- After executing a Town member, dies of guilt like Vigilante would.
- Has limited number of 3 jails after executing a Town member, punishing bad execution by putting Jailor's roleblocking ability on a clock, denying permanent roleblock on GF/Mafioso.
- Jailor can't jail same player twice in a row, denying permanent roleblock on GF/Mafioso.

Spy:
- Replace the ability to see Mafia visits with additional bugs. Seeing Mafia visits makes majority of RM unplayable as long as a Spy exists and posts results daily, confirming anyone you visit as non-mafia is just not worth the effect your Mafia role has, except for Ambusher/Janitor/Disguiser. Instead replace that annoying ability with additional bugs on players during night - 2 or 3 bugs each night. 3 seems more balanced, but could be a bit difficult in programming or generally in the theme of ToS, as no role in the game can target more than 2 players during the Night. Only 2 bugs/night seems too little and too weak compared to Lookout or Investigator in terms of powerlevel, so this change could use a little more work. Either way seeing the Mafia visits ability should be nerfed/removed in my opinion.

Investigator:
- After you investigate a evil player, that evil player will be notified at the end of a night, informing him he has been investigated.

Mayor:
- Revealing ability is postponed until the next day. For example - Day 2 you press reveal button, nothing happens, at the start of Day 3 you automatically reveal as Mayor, your ability after revealing stays the same. If you get roleblocked, you do not reveal and have to try again. Also you cannot reveal Day 1.

Transporter:
- Transported targets do not get informed they have been transported. This would make it much harder to confirm as Transporter, easier to fake claim, but still remain strong and extremely impactful in hands of good player.
- You lose the ability to transport yourself, making you vulnerable to attacks after being found.
- Move Transporter from Town Support into Neutral Evil with same win-condition as Witch. Change rolelist of Ranked as follows: Witch -> Witch/Transporter; Executioner -> Executioner/Jester

Retributionist:
- Removed from "unique" roles, allowing multiple town members to become Retributionist in the same game. Unique Retributionist made sense while it had it's old ability, but now after the rework I can't see a good reason for it.

Medium:
- Add 2nd seance
- (unsure about this change) Medium becomes "unique" role. I don't see a point in having more than 1 Medium in games, they get the exact same information and the only thing it allows for is confirming each other, but serves no other purpose. On one hand it's going to be harder to get confirmed the normal way, on the other hand you can hard CC the other Medium claims making it a bit risky to claim Medium as evil, while rewarding that risk with easy role to fake claim.

Jailor - Vig guilt is too extreme and basically is a auto loss for town in a lot of scenarios
Spy - meh this roles concept sucks I've seen better remakes tho
Investigator - This ruins the entire point of the role? At least calling out certain fake claims anyway
Mayor - ehh kinda don't hate this too much mayor is a randomly spawning power role while this is more leveld I'd feel like mayors would just rev d1 tho
Trans - Self transporting should be removed agreed.
Retri - not being unique would cause retri to fight over corpses a lot

[Paradox12]

Blah blah blah

Jailor:
- After executing a Town member, dies of guilt like Vigilante would.
- Has limited number of 3 jails after executing a Town member, punishing bad execution by putting Jailor's roleblocking ability on a clock, denying permanent roleblock on GF/Mafioso.
- Jailor can't jail same player twice in a row, denying permanent roleblock on GF/Mafioso.

Spy:
- Replace the ability to see Mafia visits with additional bugs. Seeing Mafia visits makes majority of RM unplayable as long as a Spy exists and posts results daily, confirming anyone you visit as non-mafia is just not worth the effect your Mafia role has, except for Ambusher/Janitor/Disguiser. Instead replace that annoying ability with additional bugs on players during night - 2 or 3 bugs each night. 3 seems more balanced, but could be a bit difficult in programming or generally in the theme of ToS, as no role in the game can target more than 2 players during the Night. Only 2 bugs/night seems too little and too weak compared to Lookout or Investigator in terms of powerlevel, so this change could use a little more work. Either way seeing the Mafia visits ability should be nerfed/removed in my opinion.

Investigator:
- After you investigate a evil player, that evil player will be notified at the end of a night, informing him he has been investigated.

Mayor:
- Revealing ability is postponed until the next day. For example - Day 2 you press reveal button, nothing happens, at the start of Day 3 you automatically reveal as Mayor, your ability after revealing stays the same. If you get roleblocked, you do not reveal and have to try again. Also you cannot reveal Day 1.

Transporter:
- Transported targets do not get informed they have been transported. This would make it much harder to confirm as Transporter, easier to fake claim, but still remain strong and extremely impactful in hands of good player.
- You lose the ability to transport yourself, making you vulnerable to attacks after being found.
- Move Transporter from Town Support into Neutral Evil with same win-condition as Witch. Change rolelist of Ranked as follows: Witch -> Witch/Transporter; Executioner -> Executioner/Jester

Retributionist:
- Removed from "unique" roles, allowing multiple town members to become Retributionist in the same game. Unique Retributionist made sense while it had it's old ability, but now after the rework I can't see a good reason for it.

Medium:
- Add 2nd seance
- (unsure about this change) Medium becomes "unique" role. I don't see a point in having more than 1 Medium in games, they get the exact same information and the only thing it allows for is confirming each other, but serves no other purpose. On one hand it's going to be harder to get confirmed the normal way, on the other hand you can hard CC the other Medium claims making it a bit risky to claim Medium as evil, while rewarding that risk with easy role to fake claim.

Jailor: No, this just makes jailor more swingy since it can either execute 3 evils or cause 2 townies to die. This means that games are even more revolved around how competent the jailor is than games are now. Also, what's the point of having 3 jails if the jailor is just gonna commit suicide the next night anyway?

Spy: I don't think we should completely get rid of MV. I think spy should be able to see MV on the people they bug.

Investigator: I don't think this would be necessary since invests usually post everyday anyway so this change would do jack shit.

Mayor: Ideas that delay confirmation are borderline useless since in the end the mayor will still be able to confirm themselves.

Retributionist: Do you have any idea how OP it is to have 2 rets and 3 vigis or 3 BGs? Ret should be allowed to use more roles, making it unique just makes the role broken without fixing any of its problems.

Medium: Second seance does nothing except allow for achievement metagaming. I would support making medium unique. It's not really a valid argument that it would make it harder for evils to fake claim, since now all mediums are confirmed on d3 anyway, and all this change does is speed up the confirmation process but it would also prevent cross-confirmation so I think that this would make the role better. And like I said earlier it doesn't really matter if confirmation happens a day earlier or a day later since in the end it still ends up happening.

[cob709]

jailor, mayor, and medium should all just be removed

Dude stop, very few people wants this, devs obviusly wont remove roles and specially these ones, at this point it looks like you are the type of people that suicide D1 when they get jailor

That's rude.
u dont gotta be like that

jailor, mayor, and medium should all just be removed

Interesting. Why Medium? Jailor/Mayor are pretty iconic so nerf would serve them better in my opinion. Besides, what would replace them in investigative results if they got entirely removed? Entire Investigative results would require overhaul, which I'm not totally against, but also I think the Classic needs MORE roles rather than less.

Dead interactions aren't very well skill based, which is generally what each role should aim to achieve. Mediums are fed information by dead players, but they do not get to make any choices at all. Their play style is very linear and feeds information from the dead to the living.

Jailor is too powerful. It is a combination a vigilante, escort, and doctor. Perhaps a "Jailkeeper" concept would make this slightly more balanced.

Mayor is a confirmed town player, which is powerful enough. But they also have three votes, which delays Evil roles from getting majority. Changing it to Innocent Child(same as mayor, but without 3 votes) would probably be fine.

[LairesTheUnscaled]

Dead interactions aren't very well skill based, which is generally what each role should aim to achieve. Mediums are fed information by dead players, but they do not get to make any choices at all. Their play style is very linear and feeds information from the dead to the living.

Mayor is a confirmed town player, which is powerful enough. But they also have three votes, which delays Evil roles from getting majority. Changing it to Innocent Child(same as mayor, but without 3 votes) would probably be fine.

Well, I really like Medium specifically because I don't have anything designated to do. I can practice scumreading - reading votes, checking who is quiet, who claimed and who didn't. As most other town roles I just don't keep track of this all, because I have to also think about who to check, write a will, whisper results and post them, push people to claim etc. I just enjoy the gameplay of not having to do any of that. Also as a bonus nobody ever harasses me over my gameplay, unlike when I play Jailor/Mayor/Vigi. I hate getting Jailor because everyone has expectation I will carry and that's just not the case. Even when I do quite well and we just get unlucky I get flamed, because I didn't execute first TK claim in jail N2 etc. Other times I get flamed for being too trigger happy and I execute sus townie early on... it's just too stressful for me.
Talking about roles not being very skill based, I don't get your suggestion on making Mayor reveal as confirmed townie and do nothing else, removing the only part that makes it skill based role...

[LairesTheUnscaled]

Blah blah blah

Jailor:
- After executing a Town member, dies of guilt like Vigilante would.
- Has limited number of 3 jails after executing a Town member, punishing bad execution by putting Jailor's roleblocking ability on a clock, denying permanent roleblock on GF/Mafioso.
- Jailor can't jail same player twice in a row, denying permanent roleblock on GF/Mafioso.

Also, what's the point of having 3 jails if the jailor is just gonna commit suicide the next night anyway?

If you cann't be bothered reading the intro, don't ask stupid questions. You are saving your time to waste my time by making me explain what I already wrote there. These are all options. Finding the combination that makes it the best is not my call to make, so no point in narrowing it down since there is multiple ways it can be done, some roles could be nerfed more, some less. In the end it's not going to be my call so why not throw in everything I could think of. Maybe some of them will be to the liking of devs and implement them.