Survivor

Suggest new roles or changes to current roles for the game here.

Survivor

Postby ABadWord » Sat Aug 29, 2020 1:52 am

This post is inspired by the suggested Refugee role a few weeks back.

I suggest Three changes to Survivor.

1: Remove 4 vests mechanic. He now has Basic defense until he sacrifices it. Once lost, it is never given back.

2: The Survivors ability is replaced with an ability to pack up, this will make him lose his defense, which includes on the night he packs up. After words he will have a cool down night as he prepares to leave town where he cannot do anything, then he will have his ability replaced by an option to leave town. This will cause his to just up and disappear from the game. He will leave a "Last Note" (a re-flavored last will) and during the death toll the next day he will not be present, the camera will zoom in on his spot where a small scrap of paper now lays. In the graveyard his cause of death is "Left". If he is attacked or interacted with in any way, the player that interacted with him will get the message "Your target is nowhere to be found". These abilitys cannot be interfeared with by a Roleblock or Transport, and can even be done in Jail allowing him to dodge a execution if it was prepared.

3: The Survivor only wins with Town, Executioners, Jesters, Pirates, and other Survivors. Reasoning being that these are semi-neutral/good roles. If an evil faction such as the Mafia wins and the Survivor has not left Town, he will lose. The Survivor will not be counted as a Town role and the Mafia can automatically win if only a Survivor is left alive, with the Survivor losing.

Reasoning for this suggestion:

The Survivor as it sits is one of the most controversial roles in the game as it's purpose has been boiled down into "Surv Claim D1". Yes, you can do other strategies, but just flat out claiming Surv is the most effective as it means killing roles will disregard you, as you probably will have defense, and TI will be suspicious of you, meaning you will be investigated, and found not suspicious, unless doused/hexed/or framed.
This effectiveness is seen in the Survs high win-rate, he kinda just watches.
This also means that many players (present company included full disclosure) find the role to be boring. As you have no proper ability other then getting basic defense as you go with the majority and try not to seem like an evil, a job that comes down more to luck in the Chaos modes where Survivor dwells. A common talking point is that playing Survivor is like being Dead N1, as you don't really have much impact.
What little impact you have is my next point.
The idea of a role that wins with everyone is cute, however it leads to arbitrary victories. Situations where two sides gave it their all, fought tooth and nail, and now its them at each others necks, with Tim the Surv that went afk N3 and just got back being the deciding factor.
In this situation, it is the worst role to play against, victory is quite literally decided by a anon on the internet like its a forum debate, and they can use whatever reasoning they want. I personally, have been in this position, and have snatched so many wins from people on the meek merit of "I like the other guy".

To attempt to remedy this, I recommend the suggested changes as they achieve two goals.

1: Making the role interesting, needing engagement and strategy to win.

2: Remove the negativity bias of having wins stolen from players because one Melvin sat around in a monkey suit and decided that RPS via text is the best idea under a time limit.

If the win condition of winning with everyone is to be used, it should be with a play style that's fun, not sitting there being a wannabe king-maker.


(Also I think the idea of having Survived is ludicrous, especially when he "Survives" with Horsemen of the Apocalypse and Tarnation Serial Killers or Arsonists, you're just gonna die in a day dude, you didn't live through Flummery. This is a more Survivor based Win-Con But that's just a nit-pick aaaaaaa)
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Re: Survivor

Postby Mystoc » Sat Aug 29, 2020 10:20 am

i disagree that survivors are mostly good

first NB is ment to be able to side with any side, this ignores that rule which is bad

Next the whole lore behind survivor is they will do anything to to keep living this include helping mafia kill by being a bystander and not getting in their way, the idea of survior its me or them i want to live, inversely survivor could be viewed as a person who stands up against the evils and helps town despite the threat of death hence they survived the threat or they survived by any means necessary

it works both ways

forcing survivor to pick a side doesnt work either since that just a worst anmesiac the whole idea behind survivor is they are the swing vote and you cant rely on them for anything cause they will do whatever in their best interests

theres a reason NB was removed from ranked survivor is a new player role its not ment to be hard to win its very easy its meant to teach the game to the person since they can watch without worrying about alot they just vest and live, can survivor be improved it sure can but removing it from being able to side with evils is a bad idea
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Re: Survivor

Postby ABadWord » Sun Aug 30, 2020 12:49 am

Mystoc wrote:i disagree that survivors are mostly good

first NB is ment to be able to side with any side, this ignores that rule which is bad

Amnesiac can only side with dead men and is vulnerable before he 'members. This can allow any side to attack and kill one to remove risk which is an interesting game situation. Survivor sits there while people squabble and gets hanged if they can't get a lead, how fun.
Mystoc wrote:Next the whole lore behind survivor is they will do anything to to keep living this include helping mafia kill by being a bystander and not getting in their way, the idea of survior its me or them i want to live, inversely survivor could be viewed as a person who stands up against the evils and helps town despite the threat of death hence they survived the threat or they survived by any means necessary

From a lore standpoint, no.
Lore don't mean much, and even if it did, then Survivor couldn't win with any Lunatic roles like Serial Killer or Pestilence. They would kill him for fun/pleasure like everyone else. Furthermore, any Survivor trying to win won't side with Town when evils gain majority, they wanna live, not get killed out of spite.
Mystoc wrote:it works both ways

Half my issue IS that it can work both ways. It makes it a non-role that no one touches because it wastes time.
Mystoc wrote:forcing survivor to pick a side doesnt work either since that just a worst anmesiac the whole idea behind survivor is they are the swing vote and you cant rely on them for anything cause they will do whatever in their best interests

Survivor already is a worst Amnesiac.
Them being a swing vote is bad for the game as they can flip flop arbitrarily adding a level of RNG essentially as they have no loyalty.
Mystoc wrote:theres a reason NB was removed from ranked survivor is a new player role its not ment to be hard to win its very easy its meant to teach the game to the person since they can watch without worrying about alot they just vest and live, can survivor be improved it sure can but removing it from being able to side with evils is a bad idea

Survivor was removed because it was a random swing vote and added chaos to the Competitive mode, not because it's a watered down tutorial. A Survivor was able to flip the game around like crazy and steal games from the Mafia or Town for no reason. They still do now, just in all any.
If there is a role to teach the game then that is useless. We can't pick our roles, a new player could play 100+ games and never get Survivor. If we wanted a tutorial, just make one, don't make a weak half measure.
Lastly, if there's a role that wins most of the time because they have such little impact until the final 10 seconds because they can do nothing but not die so they can not die again later, then that's a bad role. It needs a fix.
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Re: Survivor

Postby Mystoc » Sun Aug 30, 2020 2:40 pm

Amnesiac can only side with dead men and is vulnerable before he 'members. This can allow any side to attack and kill one to remove risk which is an interesting game situation. Survivor sits there while people squabble and gets hanged if they can't get a lead, how fun.


you didnt mention at all what i said about NB being able to side with all side
you just stated anmesiac is worse and not fun i agree u can die before u get a role to become and that isnt fun but and its harder to win but that doesnt justify changing survivor so it cant side with evils

you say claiming day 1 is best but when evils start doing it too then town hangs all surv claims, its not the best strat, even though its a bad idea town can claim surv to avoid being attacked as surv, it works for mayor for sure since he can reveal to get heat off his back if town wants to hang the surv claim and according to you evils never attack surv, that might change if confirmable roles start changing surv too. soo surv isnt a sure fire claim to do and be safe

your new idea that he can pack up and leave if town is losing doesnt fix the problem theres still no danger the evils dont care if you leave if you leave they dont need to waste a kill on you to win so they will just leave you for last, surv is even more boring now but cant side with evils he just waits to see if town loses with a perma basic def and if they do he leaves

also theres nothing stoping surv from siding with evils and voting against town and packing up and leaving right before the last town dies since he has two win cons its not gamethrowing

survivor is not serious role is really ment for all any and thats it, i agree its a boring role but removing options and just makings it goal leave town or defeat all evils is not much better
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