Spy should be removed

[Mystoc]

the only thing spy had was to counter mafia visits roles that didn't kill and help confirm non mafia expect via transporter

if framer change goes through if he can visit teammates then spy is legit useless

spy lost seeing whisper then faction chat and now this and that was fair but dont take spies last use...
what does spy have left knowing if someone was immune to an attack from mafia's attack thats it

remove spy its bug feature is almost never useful your better off not using it so u dont die to vet or WW convince me otherwise

spy is even more boring then medium cause at least they have people to talk to at night

[OreCreeper]

the only thing spy had was to counter mafia visits roles that didn't kill and help confirm non mafia expect via transporter

if framer change goes through if he can visit teammates then spy is legit useless

spy lost seeing whisper then faction chat and now this and that was fair but dont taks spies last use...
what does spy have left knowing if someone was immune to an attack from mafia's attack thats it

remove spy its bug feature is almost never useful your better off not using it so u dont die to vet or WW convince me otherwise

spy is even more boring then medium cause at least they have people to talk to at night

well it's not "useless", theres still like a 70%+ chance that someone whos visited by maf is town, and there's still the bug ability.

[AlwaysAFK510]

I agree, but for different reasoning. Spy is too OP to me, at least in Ranked. Even with the new proposed Framer buff, Spies still have a chance of confirming many people as non mafia. Also, when Mafia hits immune, especially with a jani or forger, it instantly outs those roles too. I think Spy is too much, and should either be reworked completely or removed because of this.

[Mystoc]

well it's not "useless", theres still like a 70%+ chance that someone whos visited by maf is town, and there's still the bug ability.

you cant have info based on chance unless random mafia dies first you dont know now if your visits are true, that was spies whole thing have reliable info that was never wrong now thats gone (if someone was transported they would say)

I agree, but for different reasoning. Spy is too OP to me, at least in Ranked. Even with the new proposed Framer buff, Spies still have a chance of confirming many people as non mafia. Also, when Mafia hits immune, especially with a jani or forger, it instantly outs those roles too. I think Spy is too much, and should either be reworked completely or removed because of this.

the prob with spy is its just passive it does nothing the only thing it did have was strong yes but it was the only thing it did thats all, bug skill is beyond useless, the prob is the really spy countered only two roles consig and consort so, framers ability was to useless to use same with forger, janitor killed same target, and disguiser sorta is countered but not if he just visits the same target each night

the main prob the correct play sometimes is just dont visit people who didnt die then spy is just useless you cant force mafia to visit people who arent killed, and when you are useful you should be unfoolable since half the time mafia just wont visit on some roles so if its buff framer or nothing spy should just be removed it isnt fun to play

now framer is a powerhouse of a role its buff is going to be beyond strong frame someone forever is super strong, why shouldnt it have a counter, it being able to visit mafia basicly just invalidates the whole counter that spy had, like what are the other ways you know someone was framed before they died?

i would rather framer visiting teammates not show to spy but currently its a weak role so its w/e

im not saying nerf framer even though i think perma frames are stupid strong im saying at this point just remove spy

[Brilliand]

No removing roles outright.

Change Spy to this: Role-tracker

[Mystoc]

No removing roles outright.

Change Spy to this: Role-tracker

you say no removing roles but its been done in ranked and thats mainly to what i am refering too, NB and any slot which was vampires and also vampire hunter was removed from ranked, so roles arent deleted from the game but are removed from gamemodes, i dont care if spy stays its not a fun or useful ranked role if the framer changes goes through

the reworks its alright but too simple cause it just gives the rolelist each night based on the feedback they saw that night

also being able to select random town is just super OP, like if tp or tk dies and you have selected all of random town and know none of the random town is tp or TK which is the first 3 you should always pick, you auto know instantly that any person claiming tp or tk is isnta lying,

its a good rework the meta gaming around it just to obv, this would also let spy confrim themselves again since he can give exact results the TI role slot got day 2 if he selects TI the first night and whispers it to the jailor which the TI would whisper to jailor as well, or you could just do it for jailor and get his results of who he jailed n1

yes i know the jailor meta sucks and the main ideas of these forums are ways to stop it but thats what would happen even without jailor spy could confirm self day 2 but would have to out hes spy

its a very cool idea in theory and fits the lore of a spy but it doesnt work

[Brilliand]

No removing roles outright.

you say no removing roles but its been done in ranked and thats mainly to what i am refering too, NB and any slot which was vampires and also vampire hunter was removed from ranked, so roles arent deleted from the game but are removed from gamemodes, i dont care if spy stays its not a fun or useful ranked role if the framer changes goes through

Oh. Yes, that's OK. Removing a Town role from Ranked is still dubious because it requires moving that role out of its current sub-alignment into a new "Town Not Suitable for Ranked" alignment (or equivalent), and it's a little hard from here to imagine an alignment like that making sense, but it's better than an outright deletion.

[ABadWord]

A Town Neutral Chaos sound fun. Just have them be only in a category called New Town or something.
Now all we need is a weird enough role hmmmmmmmmmmmm.

[PatrykSzczescie]

the only thing spy had was to counter mafia visits roles that didn't kill and help confirm non mafia expect via transporter

Not the only things but these purposes are true.

if framer change goes through if he can visit teammates then spy is legit useless

Not completely useless. Ofc visited by mafia people won't be autocleared but once you find out Framer doesn't exist, you get back to clearing people. Also, Sheriff can check visited by Mafia people and if these are suspicious, those people are clearly framed. Then when you find non-sus results on these people and you're certain no one beside Framer could visit them, you find framed Mafia members.

spy lost seeing whisper then faction chat and now this and that was fair but dont take spies last use...
what does spy have left knowing if someone was immune to an attack from mafia's attack thats it

I'm proving there are more uses.

remove spy its bug feature is almost never useful your better off not using it so u dont die to vet or WW convince me otherwise

In low ELO games evils are afraid of taking risks and they just go with flow claiming roles matching to Invest results. And there I might agree Spy bugs don't have much use except for confirmation purposes. Evils can be easily beaten with common sense then. But once you reach high ELO, Spy bugs can be really useful in revealing fake transes, fake roleblocks, determining which Vig cc is fake by bugging one of them to see if it's an evil with high defense claiming Vig.

spy is even more boring then medium cause at least they have people to talk to at night

As explained, a clever play from Spy can really nail the game, therefore it can be a fun role to play as. But not in low ELO so first you need to go higher in rankings.