Investigator rework (shifting resultsets)

[Brilliand]

Instead of having a fixed grouping of roles for each Investigator resultset, generate a unique Investigator resultset for each player as follows:

• The first role in the resultset is always a Town role. For actual Town, this role is the player's actual role; for non-Town, this role is initially selected at random from all Town roles that exist in the game.
• The second role in the resultset is always a non-Town role. For non-Town, this role is the player's actual role; for Town, this role is initially selected at random from all non-Town roles that exist in the game (and remains unchanged from then on).
• Non-Town player have the option to change the first ("Town") role in their resultset at any time during the night. This option only appears if an Investigator or Consigliere actually exists in the game. (Or if an Investigator is possible in the rolelist, whether it rolled or not?)

Most Town players have no way to determine the second role in their resultset without the help of an Investigator.

• If an Investigator investigates a player, they see the two roles in that player's resultset, always in the order "Town, non-Town".
• If a Consigliere investigates a player, they see that player's true role, followed by the other role in their resultset (i.e. "They must be a <role>. They could also be mistaken for a <role>.")
• A Witch or Coven Leader who investigates a player sees only their true role

I'm looking to propose this as a better alternative to the Investigator rework recently proposed by Achilles, but I think there's room for the community to help fine-tune it first.

[cob709]

This seems like a good rework proposal! But there are a few issues with it.

Firstly, having the role results randomly generated is bad(RNG).
Secondly, the night GUI is going to be too bothersome to use. Investigator is simply one role, so the game shouldn't revolve around it.
Otherwise, everything seems good. I suggest changing some aspects of this idea to make it less focused on the investigator, additionally, perhaps the first role should be within the same sub-alignments(mafioso will roll TK, RM will roll TS, etc.)

Overall, it needs some tweaks. But this is a great start.
/neutral

[OreCreeper]

Or just not change Investigator, as it is currently the most balanced and skill-influenced TI role.

[Brilliand]

Firstly, having the role results randomly generated is bad(RNG).

Only in the same way the rolelist itself is RNG?

Secondly, the night GUI is going to be too bothersome to use. Investigator is simply one role, so the game shouldn't revolve around it.

Yes, that's a problem. I haven't come up with a better idea yet, though... if the "Town" results of non-Town roles are randomly generated without telling the player what it is, then the evils just get screwed (their claims will almost never match their invest results).

Do you have any ideas?

Otherwise, everything seems good. I suggest changing some aspects of this idea to make it less focused on the investigator, additionally, perhaps the first role should be within the same sub-alignments(mafioso will roll TK, RM will roll TS, etc.)

Can't use sub-alignments because not all of them are shared across factions. For example, "Protective" is only Town, "Deception" is only Mafia, and "Evil" is only Neutral and Coven.

Or just not change Investigator, as it is currently the most balanced and skill-influenced TI role.

See the linked dev discussion thread; Achilles already made the case for changing Investigator.

[cob709]

Can't use sub-alignments because not all of them are shared across factions. For example, "Protective" is only Town, "Deception" is only Mafia, and "Evil" is only in and Coven.

Town Investigative -> Mafia Deception
Town Protective -> Godfather & Coven Evil(w/necronomicon) & Neutral Chaos
Town Killing -> Mafia Killing & Coven Evil & Neutral Killing
Town Support -> Mafia Support, Neutral Evil

Mafia Deception -> Town Investigative
Mafia Killing -> Town Killing
Mafia Support -> Town Support
Godfather -> Town Killing & Town Protective

Neutral Killing -> Town Killing
Neutral Evil -> Town Support
Neutral Chaos -> Town Support & Town Protective

Coven Evil -> Town Killing
Coven Evil(w/necronomicon) -> Town Killing & Town Protective
-
Minor adjustments can be made as you see fit, but generally sub-alignment is better than completely random. Of course, there's a chance this might not even be used.

[Brilliand]

Minor adjustments can be made as you see fit, but generally sub-alignment is better than completely random. Of course, there's a chance this might not even be used.

Using sub-alignments removes the point of this idea. Sub-alignments are a version of the "fixed invest resultsets" idea, and as such subject to all the same problems Achilles has with the current Investigator.

If we're going to solve the problems Achilles has with the current Investigator, every Town/Evil combination needs to have a way to show up in the Investigator results.

[cob709]

Minor adjustments can be made as you see fit, but generally sub-alignment is better than completely random. Of course, there's a chance this might not even be used.

Using sub-alignments removes the point of this idea. Sub-alignments are a version of the "fixed invest resultsets" idea, and as such subject to all the same problems Achilles has with the current Investigator.

If we're going to solve the problems Achilles has with the current Investigator, every Town/Evil combination needs to have a way to show up in the Investigator results.

Fair enough. Alright I suppose that the RNG is necessary.
Though. for this idea to work we still need to think of a way to make it simpler to plan out claims against the Investigator.
Perhaps evil roles should be assigned a fake claim? Not the best solution, but it might work. Any other ideas?

[Brilliand]

Perhaps evil roles should be assigned a fake claim? Not the best solution, but it might work.

Seems to me that still makes the game revolve around the Investigator? I mean, if every single evil player has to get an announcement D1/N1 telling them what role an Investigator will see them as...

[JacksonVirgo]

Instead of having a fixed grouping of roles for each Investigator resultset, generate a unique Investigator resultset for each player as follows:

• The first role in the resultset is always a Town role. For actual Town, this role is the player's actual role; for non-Town, this role is initially selected at random from all Town roles that exist in the game.
• The second role in the resultset is always a non-Town role. For non-Town, this role is the player's actual role; for Town, this role is initially selected at random from all non-Town roles that exist in the game (and remains unchanged from then on).
• Non-Town player have the option to change the first ("Town") role in their resultset at any time during the night. This option only appears if an Investigator or Consigliere actually exists in the game. (Or if an Investigator is possible in the rolelist, whether it rolled or not?)

This is actually a pretty genius way to rework Invest imo, I think that using the role-list section, you can just click down the alignments and there should be a button to "Set Claim" under the role-card it shows. That way it's out of the way but still easily accessible and doesn't add another section to clutter the screen.

Although the only issue I would have is that near end-game, if a specific mafia/neutral slot has died it pretty much clears a player who shows that role as a non-town. And the option to change the claim would HAVE to be an option even without an Invest in the game.

Most Town players have no way to determine the second role in their resultset without the help of an Investigator.

• If an Investigator investigates a player, they see the two roles in that player's resultset, always in the order "Town, non-Town".
• If a Consigliere investigates a player, they see that player's true role, followed by the other role in their resultset (i.e. "They must be a <role>. They could also be mistaken for a <role>.")
• A Witch or Coven Leader who investigates a player sees only their true role

I'm looking to propose this as a better alternative to the Investigator rework recently proposed by Achilles, but I think there's room for the community to help fine-tune it first.

Weaking the Witch/CL results is good, the Consig extra result is cool and all but for the second bit do they get an evil players Town choice?

[JacksonVirgo]

Perhaps evil roles should be assigned a fake claim? Not the best solution, but it might work.

Seems to me that still makes the game revolve around the Investigator? I mean, if every single evil player has to get an announcement D1/N1 telling them what role an Investigator will see them as...

That would also just remove any flexibility the Mafia has

[Brilliand]

I think that using the role-list section, you can just click down the alignments and there should be a button to "Set Claim" under the role-card it shows. That way it's out of the way but still easily accessible and doesn't add another section to clutter the screen.

That might work. You haven't made it any less important, though, so it being out of the way could also be a problem?

I'm sure there's a happy medium somewhere in that area.

Although the only issue I would have is that near end-game, if a specific mafia/neutral slot has died it pretty much clears a player who shows that role as a non-town.

That happens for the current Invest too. The only way to avoid it would be for the Investigator to only see the possible Town role, not the possible evil role... which might be OK, but I'd be hesitant to propose that big of a nerf.

the Consig extra result is cool and all but for the second bit do they get an evil players Town choice?

Yes.

[JacksonVirgo]

Although the only issue I would have is that near end-game, if a specific mafia/neutral slot has died it pretty much clears a player who shows that role as a non-town.

That happens for the current Invest too. The only way to avoid it would be for the Investigator to only see the possible Town role, not the possible evil role... which I think would be too big of a nerf alongside the evils' ability to pick what they appear as.

Yeah that would completely destroy the role.

[JacksonVirgo]

What about a role where the invest chooses which 3 roles to check. Like check for Sheriff/Doctor or Godfather

It would show a positive result if that player is one of those roles and a negative if not. Mayor and Jailor shouldn’t be an option to check if that’s the case.

[JacksonVirgo]

What about a role where the invest chooses which 3 roles to check. Like check for Sheriff/Doctor or Godfather

It would show a positive result if that player is one of those roles and a negative if not. Mayor and Jailor shouldn’t be an option to check if that’s the case.

[Brilliand]

What about a role where the invest chooses which 3 roles to check. Like check for Sheriff/Doctor or Godfather

It would show a positive result if that player is one of those roles and a negative if not. Mayor and Jailor shouldn’t be an option to check if that’s the case.

So pretty much a buffed version of Kikigiri's idea?

I think mostly the Investigator will try to pick only Town roles, or only Evil roles. If you force him to pick both, he'll fill in the extra 'forced' slots with roles that he doesn't think exist in the current game (and you can't exclude all of those).

[JacksonVirgo]

What about a role where the invest chooses which 3 roles to check. Like check for Sheriff/Doctor or Godfather

It would show a positive result if that player is one of those roles and a negative if not. Mayor and Jailor shouldn’t be an option to check if that’s the case.

So pretty much a buffed version of Kikigiri's idea?

I think mostly the Investigator will try to pick only Town roles, or only Evil roles. If you force him to pick both, he'll fill in the extra 'forced' slots with roles that he doesn't think exist in the current game (and you can't exclude all of those).

Oh, could you link to that idea? I don't think I've seen their idea.

But yeah, I saw the same issue. The only way I could think is to make impossible roles uncheckable (like a GF when they're dead) and possibly can only check the same role twice?

[Brilliand]

Oh, could you link to that idea? I don't think I've seen their idea.

viewtopic.php?p=3500675#p3500675

But yeah, I saw the same issue. The only way I could think is to make impossible roles uncheckable (like a GF when they're dead) and possibly can only check the same role twice?

There will still be plenty of possible-but-confirmed-not-present roles to use.

[TheFluffyWaffleV2]

obviously the fix for this is there is a 16th player who is the Moderator who makes all of the invest role results

[JacksonVirgo]

Oh I see, alright.

You could do RNG each result with all possible roles which gets announced to the town SoD1 but that's a clunky way to do it and a game may swing in either sides favour depending on what results get chosen SoD1 which is bad.

I'm not sure how we could do this, but I definitely disagree with the devs suggestion.

[Brilliand]

You could do RNG each result with all possible roles which gets announced to the town SoD1 but that's a clunky way to do it and a game may swing in either sides favour depending on what results get chosen SoD1 which is bad.

In this thread we've already come up with a solution that would be pretty good if we're willing to devote everyone's attention D1 to something Investigator-specific.

The problem is we really shouldn't be forcing everyone to pay attention to the possibility of an Investigator unless an Investigator actually claims.

[JacksonVirgo]

You could do RNG each result with all possible roles which gets announced to the town SoD1 but that's a clunky way to do it and a game may swing in either sides favour depending on what results get chosen SoD1 which is bad.

In this thread we've already come up with a solution that would be pretty good if we're willing to devote everyone's attention D1 to something Investigator-specific.

The problem is we really shouldn't be forcing everyone to pay attention to the possibility of an Investigator unless an Investigator actually claims.

It could be randomised and shown to specific Investigators, although that would mean every invest would get different results and likely a double check would mean narrowing down that players exact role in most circumstances.

[Brilliand]

It could be randomised and shown to specific Investigators, although that would mean every invest would get different results and likely a double check would mean narrowing down that players exact role in most circumstances.

It would also mean that the sequence check-then-demand-role would leave an evil with no safe option (since they have no idea which Town role got matched with them).