Dictator (Neutral Evil)

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Dictator (Neutral Evil)

Postby SomeCatchyName9 » Mon Aug 03, 2020 10:09 am

I have posted some ideas here in the past and this is a reworked (and hopefully more balanced) version of the Wannabe, an idea I posted in 2016.

Role:
Dictator

Alignment:
Neutral Evil

Role Card:
Summary:
A powerful tyrant waiting for the perfect moment to take over.
Abilities:
Mark a player for their body to mysteriously disappear when they die.
Attributes:
When a marked player dies in any way, their body will not be found, preventing the town from seeing their role and Last Will.
You will know the roles and see the wills of marked players when they die.
Marked players will remain marked for the rest of the game, even if you continue to mark other players or die.
When you die, your body will also mysteriously disappear and the town will not see your role and Last Will.
If you survive to the end of the game and win, all other factions will lose. [1]
Goal:
Survive to see the Town lose the game.

Win Conditions:
You must kill the Town.
You win with Witches.
You win with Survivors.
You win with Dictators.
You may spare anyone else.

Mafia, Coven, all Neutral Killing roles, Pestilence and Vampires will get an additional win condition:

You must kill Dictators.

Special Attributes:
Attack:
None
Defence:
None (Basic until first attack, like the Witch) [2]

Investigative Results: [3]
Sheriff: You cannot find evidence of wrongdoing. Your target seems innocent.
Investigator: Your target could be a Framer, Vampire, Jester, Hex Master or Dictator
Consigliere: Your target is plotting to take over the town. They must be a Dictator.

Notifications:
You have (instead) chosen to mark <player name>. - When targeting a player at night
We could not determine their role. - When a marked player or Dictator dies
<player name> (Unknown) - When a marked player or Dictator is shown in the graveyard
You secretly know <player name>'s role was <role>. - When a marked player dies
You secretly know their last will. - When a marked player dies
A Dictator has taken over the town! - When the game ends with a Dictator win

Additional Information:
  • The Dictator's primary goal is to see the Town lose the game, like the Witch. However, if this happens and the game ends in an evil win (Mafia, Coven, Vampire, Pestilence or any Neutral Killing), those evils will lose and only the Dictator will win.
  • In other words, if the Dictator survives to the end of the game and all of the Town is dead, all other players will lose unless they are a won Neutral Benign or Neutral Evil role (or a won Pirate).
  • This means all evil roles need to watch out for the possibility of a Dictator in the game, and they need to kill the Dictator before killing their final opposition.
  • Marked players will disappear no matter how they die, including being lynched.
  • If a player dies the night they are marked, their body will not disappear. [4]

Strategy:
  • The Dictator needs to help the evils in misleading the Town by using their ability to open up claim space for themselves and other evils. They should try to mark players who are likely to die, to make full use of their ability.
  • While doing this, the Dictator not only needs to trick the Town into believing them, but also needs to trick evils into thinking they are Town and the Dictator is either dead or another player.
  • Once evils have the majority vote, evils should generally keep the most confirmed Town role alive until they are the final opposition, because they can be fairly sure that if they aren't the Dictator, the Dictator must already be dead.
  • Therefore, the Dictator needs to make it seem like they are the most confirmed Town role alive, by using the wills of dead marked players to make a convincing Town claim.
  • An alternative strategy is to not mark anyone at all (so evils do not know there is a Dictator) and claim to be a different Neutral Evil when evils have majority, so that they assume you are on their side and spare you.

More detailed strategy
As the Dictator:
  • There are two main strategies. You can either make as many bodies disappear as possible to create confusion and give yourself and other evils more claim space, or mark no one so that the existence of the Dictator isn't even known to the evils.
  • If you're trying to mark as effectively as possible, you need to see what players are most likely to die to create as much confusion as possible. Not only do you need to harm the Town, but you also need to make the evils think that one of the disappeared players was the Dictator all along and that you aren't a threat.
  • If the existence of a Dictator is known due to players having disappeared, you need to be a more convincing Town member than the actual Town, because evils will keep confirmed Town players alive until they are sure the Dictator has been killed.
  • You can try to look confirmed by using the wills of dead players that you marked and possibly assuming their identities.
  • Another strategy is to not mark any players at all and pretend to be another Neutral Evil role in the endgame. The easiest strategy is claiming to be a won Executioner siding with evils, as they would appreciate the extra vote and may ignore you. However, some evils may be wary of an Executioner claim exactly for this reason (as it would become a common Dictator claim).
  • You can also claim to be a Jester and beg for a win, making sure you are annoying enough that the evils don't want to give you the free win and will not lynch you.
  • It is possible to claim to be a Witch, but if no players have ever claimed to have been witched, it will be difficult to convince evils that you are one.

Against the Dictator:
  • As Town, even though the Dictator isn't a direct threat, you should still push or even lynch possible Dictators. They cause a lot of confusion and give evils a lot more claim space, much like a Janitor.
  • As an evil, if the existence of a Dictator is known, towards the end of the game you need to make sure you kill them before ending the game. Usually you can do this by keeping a confirmed Town player alive until the end (but beware of skilled Dictators who may trick you into thinking they are confirmed).
  • Even if no dead players have disappeared, don't assume there is no Dictator in the game. They may not be marking players, or they might have even just gotten unlucky and marked players that are all still alive.

Additional strategy for All Any:
  • Most of the above strategy still applies.
  • Survivor is another easy Dictator claim, but it will attract suspicion from almost all other players.
  • Hiding the existence of a Dictator by not marking anyone is not as important in All Any, as you can still claim to be a different Neutral Evil even if players know there is a Dictator in the game.
Questions:
  1. Should Neutral Killing roles win with the Dictator? (i.e. only the Mafia and Coven will lose if a Dictator wins)
  2. Should the Dictator have permanent Basic defence?
  3. Should marked players get the Dictator's Investigator and Consigliere results?
  4. Should players disappear if they die the night they are marked?
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Re: Dictator (Neutral Evil)

Postby Mystoc » Mon Aug 03, 2020 2:47 pm

to strong its a perma janitor it doesnt need to mark same night someone dies so basically there will be no rolelist at all in graveyard which is towns most powerful tool process of elimination at least 2/3 thirds of roles that die will just not showing anything on avg

yes if its goal is see town die it can win with any non town role. the game just ends if town dies its not about sparing others

no it shouldn't full invest or sherrif thats too strong

the prob is this role is brainless you can just select a diff person each night and do super good without much thought since it isnt an attack BG wont trigger and players dont know they are marked

===========================================================================================================


make it reveal all roles / wills in graveyard if it dies so town guns to kill you if you clean to many of them

make it have to guess the alignment of a player correctly so marking them works (so it isnt a brainless one click role)

or make the mark disapear after x amount of nights so it isnt perma (maybe 3 nights)

make it so it cant be appear if theres a janitor in the game or coven mode (in ranked at least)

lastly the lore makes no sense at all, rename it to mortician or something that has to with caring for the dead bodies
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Re: Dictator (Neutral Evil)

Postby TheFluffyWaffleV2 » Mon Aug 03, 2020 4:55 pm

Personally, I don't like it. The way this role helps the Mafia/Coven/NK is bizarre, and really doesn't help them that much. However, the idea of them winning if they are left alive when the Town dies out is interesting. This would make the evils have to find them and kill them before wiping out the Town. I can see how it is similar to the Wannabe.

However, this role is still all over the place. It needs to settle down somewhere. Maybe rethink an ability for it? Also, I don't believe this should be NE. NE's are meant to hurt the Town. It hurts the Town, sure, but it literally ends the game if the Town dies. This is drastically more dangerous to the Mafia/Coven/Neutrals than the Town. I would probably re-align this to be a NC.


Overall, make it make more sense.
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Re: Dictator (Neutral Evil)

Postby SomeCatchyName9 » Mon Aug 03, 2020 5:10 pm

Mystoc wrote:to strong its a perma janitor it doesnt need to mark same night someone dies so basically there will be no rolelist at all in graveyard which is towns most powerful tool process of elimination at least 2/3 thirds of roles that die will just not showing anything on avg

I don't think that many roles will be cleaned. If we say the average game lasts about 6-7 days, that means only 6-7 players will be marked in the whole game. On top of this, it's unlikely that all 6 players will die. I'd say maybe 3-4 players will be marked and killed which is only slightly stronger than a Janitor. That's a fair tradeoff for being a solo rope rather than having a faction like the Janitor.
Mystoc wrote:yes if its goal is see town die it can win with any non town role. the game just ends if town dies its not about sparing others

Sorry I didn't completely understand this, but no the game will not end when town dies because evils need to have a chance to kill the Dictator before the end of the game. Evils must kill the Dictator to win. The dictator does not "win with" the Mafia etc because they won't win if the Dictator wins, but the Dictator doesn't have to kill them in order to win. It just needs to kill the Town and then survive to the end without being killed by evils.
Mystoc wrote:no it shouldn't full invest or sherrif thats too strong

Fair enough
Mystoc wrote:the prob is this role is brainless you can just select a diff person each night and do super good without much thought since it isnt an attack BG wont trigger and players dont know they are marked

Idk, I think there's a lot more skill involved (which I've explained in the Strategy section, please read it). There's the usual issue of having to trick the town just like any evil. But on top of this, the Dictator needs to trick evils into thinking that they are Town otherwise they will be killed. Like a Neural Killing, the Dictator needs to be killed by almost every player which means they need to work pretty hard to get the win. They need to be a more convincing town member than the town itself, to prevent evils from killing them.
Mystoc wrote:make it reveal all roles / wills in graveyard if it dies so town guns to kill you if you clean to many of them

Sorry, this would completely break the role. There must be no indication that the Dictator has died because evils should never know for sure whether the Dictator is still alive. Otherwise, if they know that a Dictator is definitely alive they can just stall the game until they kill them this is also why the Dictator also disappears on death, so their death is never confirmed.
Mystoc wrote:make it have to guess the alignment of a player correctly so marking them works (so it isnt a brainless one click role)

or make the mark disapear after x amount of nights so it isnt perma (maybe 3 nights)

Again, I don't think the role is brainless and I don't think the marking needs a nerd as it's hard enough to mark 3-4 players.
Mystoc wrote:make it so it cant be appear if theres a janitor in the game or coven mode (in ranked at least)

I see what you mean but I'm not sure such a specific role interaction will be added.
Mystoc wrote:lastly the lore makes no sense at all, rename it to mortician or something that has to with caring for the dead bodies

Yeah tbh I also thought it was a bit weird. I couldn't think of anything else that explains why the role makes everyone lose when they win.

Thanks for the feedback! :)
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Re: Dictator (Neutral Evil)

Postby Mystoc » Mon Aug 03, 2020 5:15 pm

Evils must kill the Dictator to win


this cant be NE then change it to NC

NE is ment to be an optional ally of all evils no NE should force other evils to kill them, that takes the option away
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Re: Dictator (Neutral Evil)

Postby SomeCatchyName9 » Mon Aug 03, 2020 5:22 pm

TheFluffyWaffleV2 wrote:Personally, I don't like it. The way this role helps the Mafia/Coven/NK is bizarre, and really doesn't help them that much. However, the idea of them winning if they are left alive when the Town dies out is interesting. This would make the evils have to find them and kill them before wiping out the Town. I can see how it is similar to the Wannabe.

However, this role is still all over the place. It needs to settle down somewhere. Maybe rethink an ability for it? Also, I don't believe this should be NE. NE's are meant to hurt the Town. It hurts the Town, sure, but it literally ends the game if the Town dies. This is drastically more dangerous to the Mafia/Coven/Neutrals than the Town. I would probably re-align this to be a NC.


Overall, make it make more sense.


Firstly, the game will not end if the town dies. Sorry if that was unclear - the win condition of the Dictator is the same as the Witch, it needs to stay alive until the end of the game. The only difference is that other evils will lose if the Dictator is alive at the end of the game, not just when the Town dies (of course, a lot of the time that happens at the same time).

I guess this role is more dangerous to mafia etc than the town, and it could be an NC. I just made it an NE because the win condition was the same as the Witch so I figured it fit as an NE.

I do still think this hurts town and helps mafia/coven/nk. The confusion caused by cleaning multiple players will help evils to claim. It definitely hurts town and helps mafia etc more than some other NE roles like the Executioner.

The reason I picked this ability is that I needed a way for the Mafia to never know for sure if the Dictator is dead or alive. If they know that one of the remaining players is a Dictator for sure, you can see how it could be a lot harder for a Dictator to win. With this cleaning ability, Dictators can make it seem like the Dictator is actually already dead so that evils don't lynch them.

Thanks for the feedback :D
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Re: Dictator (Neutral Evil)

Postby SomeCatchyName9 » Mon Aug 03, 2020 5:28 pm

Mystoc wrote:
Evils must kill the Dictator to win


this cant be NE then change it to NC

NE is ment to be an optional ally of all evils no NE should force other evils to kill them, that takes the option away

The reason I didn't make this NC is that it isn't a faction of its own. It is still an ally of evils because its goal is to kill the Town, just like the Witch. It does give evils an additional target to have to kill before winning, but it's also a valuable ally that cannot suddenly support the town like the jester and exe can. The cleaning ability is also very useful to evils imo and I hope this balances the fact that evils have to kill it before winning.

You do have a point though, and I wouldn't mind changing this to NC if enough people agree.
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Re: Dictator (Neutral Evil)

Postby Mystoc » Mon Aug 03, 2020 5:50 pm

SomeCatchyName9 wrote:
Mystoc wrote:
Evils must kill the Dictator to win


this cant be NE then change it to NC

NE is ment to be an optional ally of all evils no NE should force other evils to kill them, that takes the option away

The reason I didn't make this NC is that it isn't a faction of its own. It is still an ally of evils because its goal is to kill the Town, just like the Witch. It does give evils an additional target to have to kill before winning, but it's also a valuable ally that cannot suddenly support the town like the jester and exe can. The cleaning ability is also very useful to evils imo and I hope this balances the fact that evils have to kill it before winning.

You do have a point though, and I wouldn't mind changing this to NC if enough people agree.


its not an ally of evils if you it winning makes other evils lose, it helps evils but its goal doesnt match what it does thats why its a prob, why have an ability that helps evils if and an win con that makes them lose, its like coven keep their pet NK while coven leader controls them each night, they would just be using you to win then killing you

even if we ignore the logic of it it cant be NE thats not what NE does Jester and EXE interaction with voting so they can side with no one but the difference is that their own ability doesn't hurt other evils,

just their inclination to convince others to let them win social aspects of the game cant be compared to win cons and abilities
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Re: Dictator (Neutral Evil)

Postby cob709 » Mon Aug 03, 2020 6:19 pm

Wow! This is a very well-thought out role. I love the formatting, coloring, time, and effort you put into this! I hope I can provide a meaningful review.

To summarize this role, it's a permanent Janitor on Neutral team.
Its standard ability is basically a Janitor that is permanent, similar to the Hex Master being a permanent framer. I really like this idea because it indirectly buffs medium and nerfs redistribution and necromancer.
The thing is that the role is incredibly powerful, it might need a few nerfs. Perhaps they should only be cleaned if they are lynched(day time janitor) or killed at night,
but not both.
SomeCatchyName9 wrote:Questions:
  1. Should Neutral Killing roles win with the Dictator? (i.e. only the Mafia and Coven will lose if a Dictator wins)
  2. Should the Dictator have permanent Basic defence?
  3. Should marked players get the Dictator's Investigator and Consigliere results?
  4. Should players disappear if they die the night they are marked?

1. Since the Dictator is Neutral Evil, it should win with everyone except town. I think Mafia and Coven should win with Dictator.
2. No, the Dictator plays an active role during the night, so I don't believe that they should get to be protected at night. It would be too powerful.
3. No, this would become a powerful framer(like hex master)
4. Yes, it should function similar to a janitor.

Overall, it needs some tweaks and nerds, but I like it.
/support
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Re: Dictator (Neutral Evil)

Postby Mystoc » Mon Aug 03, 2020 7:15 pm

i like only if lynched

idea still dislike its NE and makes evils lose though
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Re: Dictator (Neutral Evil)

Postby SomeCatchyName9 » Tue Aug 04, 2020 3:35 am

Mystoc wrote:its not an ally of evils if you it winning makes other evils lose, it helps evils but its goal doesnt match what it does thats why its a prob, why have an ability that helps evils if and an win con that makes them lose, its like coven keep their pet NK while coven leader controls them each night, they would just be using you to win then killing you

even if we ignore the logic of it it cant be NE thats not what NE does Jester and EXE interaction with voting so they can side with no one but the difference is that their own ability doesn't hurt other evils,

just their inclination to convince others to let them win social aspects of the game cant be compared to win cons and abilities


The main unique part of this role is that it needs to help a faction that wants to kill it. So it has to help evils but not get found out by the evils. The evils need to do their own scum reading to find the Dictator, just like how Town needs to find the Mafia etc. I think this interaction between the dictator and evils is really cool and is the reason I made the role.

I do get what you're saying about it not being NE though. Would it make sense if it was NC?
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Re: Dictator (Neutral Evil)

Postby SomeCatchyName9 » Tue Aug 04, 2020 3:45 am

cob709 wrote:Wow! This is a very well-thought out role. I love the formatting, coloring, time, and effort you put into this! I hope I can provide a meaningful review.

To summarize this role, it's a permanent Janitor on Neutral team.
Its standard ability is basically a Janitor that is permanent, similar to the Hex Master being a permanent framer. I really like this idea because it indirectly buffs medium and nerfs redistribution and necromancer.
The thing is that the role is incredibly powerful, it might need a few nerfs. Perhaps they should only be cleaned if they are lynched(day time janitor) or killed at night,
but not both.
SomeCatchyName9 wrote:Questions:
  1. Should Neutral Killing roles win with the Dictator? (i.e. only the Mafia and Coven will lose if a Dictator wins)
  2. Should the Dictator have permanent Basic defence?
  3. Should marked players get the Dictator's Investigator and Consigliere results?
  4. Should players disappear if they die the night they are marked?

1. Since the Dictator is Neutral Evil, it should win with everyone except town. I think Mafia and Coven should win with Dictator.
2. No, the Dictator plays an active role during the night, so I don't believe that they should get to be protected at night. It would be too powerful.
3. No, this would become a powerful framer(like hex master)
4. Yes, it should function similar to a janitor.

Overall, it needs some tweaks and nerds, but I like it.
/support


Your summary is exactly right. The nerf you suggested makes a lot of sense - I think I might change it to only clean if the player dies at night. The lore of someone being lynched and cleaned also doesn't really make much sense so this could be a good change.

Thanks for answering the questions :) I agree with everything you said, except the first answer - the main reason I made this role is that I liked the idea of having a role than needs to help a faction that wants to kill it. The dictator has to help the evils, but if it is too obvious that they are hurting the town, they will be killed. Just like how Town needs to find the evils, the evils need to do their own analysis and find the Dictator, which I think is quite interesting. I don't think I'll make the Mafia and Coven win with the Dictator for that reason.

Do you think this role works as a NE if evils lose when it wins? Or should it be NC?

Thanks for the support! :D
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Re: Dictator (Neutral Evil)

Postby ABadWord » Wed Aug 05, 2020 7:26 pm

If this role keeps the "ONLY I WIN!" effect, then its a NC. A NE needs to help kill town, not just mess everything up. Although a NC that just tricks all evils and takes over at the end sounds like lingerieiles of fun. Maybe a evil mayor where if he reveals as soon as all town are dead then the games just over.

However if this just wanted town to lose then a perma jantior would work fine. Call him a cleaner and keep the marking system as is. If its to strong then the marks can fade after a few days of living, or you can only have so many marked.
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Re: Dictator (Neutral Evil)

Postby SomeCatchyName9 » Sun Aug 23, 2020 5:39 pm

ABadWord wrote:If this role keeps the "ONLY I WIN!" effect, then its a NC. A NE needs to help kill town, not just mess everything up. Although a NC that just tricks all evils and takes over at the end sounds like lingerieiles of fun. Maybe a evil mayor where if he reveals as soon as all town are dead then the games just over.

However if this just wanted town to lose then a perma jantior would work fine. Call him a cleaner and keep the marking system as is. If its to strong then the marks can fade after a few days of living, or you can only have so many marked.

Sorry for the long delay in replying.

I suppose you are right about it being Neutral Chaos, and that can easily be changed.

Yeah maybe the marks should fade after a few days, but this kind of detailed balancing really isn't up to me as I've never seen it in game so obviously I wouldn't know how strong the role would be.

I just wanted the main concept of the role to be someone that wants evils to win, while the evils want to kill it. And the marking system was needed so that evils can never be sure whether the Dictator has died or not.

Thanks for the feedback :D
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Re: Dictator (Neutral Evil)

Postby SomeCatchyName9 » Thu Aug 27, 2020 2:12 am

Mystoc wrote:i like only if lynched

idea still dislike its NE and makes evils lose though

Oops didn't see this post earlier.

Sorry I don't actually know what you mean by the first sentence.

It's kind of frustrating that you're ignoring everything I'm saying and just focusing on whether it's Neutral Evil or Chaos, because honestly it doesn't matter. I couldn't care less what alignment this role is because that's not what this forum is about. The important thing is the main concept of the role, which I feel like you aren't understanding :(

It is an evil role which helps evils kill the Town.

Just like how Town needs to scumread to find the evils, the evils need to scumread to find the Dictator.

If the evils don't find the Dictator before the end of the game, the Dictator wins instead of whoever was about to win.

The marking ability is important because the players can never be sure whether the Dictator is dead, otherwise evils would easily know whether they have found the Dictator.
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