Buffing Neutral Killing | Discussion

[cob709]

Not a Role Idea, but more of a discussion to buff roles in the Neutral Killing alignment.

It's pretty commonly known that Neutral Killing roles are pretty weak because they're usually working against everyone, their only possible teammate would be Neutral Evil
There have been some ideas to buff Neutral Killing, like giving them more powerful abilities or a higher KPN. Although this will indeed buff them, it's not actually a good solution because it makes them a greater threat, putting more focus on lynching them which will in the end hurt them more.
Creating more NK roles won't solve the problem either, the problem lays in the existing roles and all the town roles that could counter them.

It's time to stop randomly creating roles, we need to fix the roles that already exist.
How would you define the problem with NKs? Is it the problem with the roles themselves, or is the problem with the entire alignment?
In what ways can we buff NKs without making them a straight target?
-:-
Suggested Buffs:

+Make NKs Roleblock Immune
+Make NKs Control Immune
+Lynch Resistance
+Give NKs more options to attack
+Give SK Astral Attacks
+Change Werewolf's rampage concept to attacking multiple people
+Individual Role Buffs
+NKs(specifically WW) should be immune to all counterattacks

[Brilliand]

Reworks to existing roles should be posted in the same way as new role ideas.

Some of the "new NK" role ideas are bad as written, but would be good as a rework to an existing NK. (Mostly the ones that are shot down as "this would be a stronger version of X existing NK role.)

[Mystoc]

easy starter buff for NK,

make all NK witch and roleblock immune

[cob709]

easy starter buff for NK,

make all NK witch and roleblock immune

This is a good start, giving NKs passive immunities will indeed be helpful.

Though, this won't be enough to completely fix NKs.

[ABadWord]

The primary issue with a NK is voting. They physically cannot gain voting majority in any meaningful way. The only way they could is from a Survivor, an Executioner that won, or a Witch siding with them for whatever reason (typically pity), or people throwing for the NK (which is against the rules).
The vote kills a NK against any faction, if a Mafia member is found they can be bailed out by there teammates and cause a voting stalemate (unless found early in which case they deserve it), if a NK is found, they die as they're to much a threat, unless they're a WW on a moonless night and there are more pressing evils that are known.
How to fix it? I have no clue. Maybe a day reveal style mechanic for SK where they can hide away during the day so they cant be voted up but now everyone knows they're SK? I dunno its a shoot in the dark.
Also I think the point of NK being made a big target being bad is missing that they already are a big target. They attack EVERY faction and can endure most attacks with their defense. There is no reason to not kill a NK if found unless its early and the Mafia/Coven needs to whittle the town away asap. But then they get hanged once they've outlived there use so its being delay killed. If anything NK should be a big scary force that can bring everyone to there knees if they aren't dealt with quickly, not a one man Godfather mimic. This game don't need no weak one man factions.
And if they become to scary in crowds them make em unique like Plaguebearer or Werewolf. Thats what the unique property is for.

[Brilliand]

I've suggested before that NKs should have a sort of "lynch resistance", where it takes more votes to guilty them on the stand than to guilty other roles. Say, a minimum of 3 more Guilty votes than Innocent votes in order to lynch an NK.

Walking off the stand when you were guiltied by a margin of 1 or 2 will out you, sure, but it's never worse than dying on the spot.

There are some obvious ways this idea could get worryingly close to being a problem, but I haven't been able to find a situation that firmly demonstrates that it would be a problem.

[TheFluffyWaffleV2]

I’ve actually played a bit with random abilities that could possibly buff NK. They are kind of, uh, stupid, but they are out there.

Serial Killer gets a new day ability called stalking. At the beginning of the night, the Serial Killer will receive the message: ”You are stalking (player name) tonight.”. The stalked target will receive the message “You feel as though someone is stalking you...”. If the stalked target preforms a visiting night ability, that does not target only themselves, they will be role blocked and dealt an Astral Basic attack from the Serial Killer. The Serial Killer is still able to choose someone to attack every night, and can kill 2 people if the stalked target is attacked. The Serial Killer will receive a message that their target was immune should they be immune, but it will not be different from the normal one. The stalk will fail if the target or Serial Killer is jailed, but only the Serial Killer will be notified of this. The target will not.

This is basically a role block that, if the target refuses to abide by, will kill them.


Give Werewolf a gun with 2 bullets that let’s them deal a basic attack to a target on odd nights.


Multiple ideas for Arso, so here are some.

- Arso gets Consigliere results while dousing targets.
- Arso douses 1 person who visits them at night.
- Arso douses anyone who role blocks them.
- Arso gets Lookout results while dousing targets.
- Arso knows who is doused, regardless of transporter or witch/CL. (does not apply to multiple arsos).
- Arso’s ignition is roleblock and control immune.
- Dousing the Jailor also douses the jailed target.

These are not 100% serious btw, just ideas I have fun making lel

[Mystoc]

I've suggested before that NKs should have a sort of "lynch resistance", where it takes more votes to guilty them on the stand than to guilty other roles. Say, a minimum of 3 more Guilty votes than Innocent votes in order to lynch an NK.

Walking off the stand when you were guiltied by a margin of 1 or 2 will out you, sure, but it's never worse than dying on the spot.

There are some obvious ways this idea could get worryingly close to being a problem, but I haven't been able to find a situation that firmly demonstrates that it would be a problem.

this just confirms they are evil and get townies who didnt vote before or Innoed to vote you this time. you can says it better then just dying but anyone with a brain would just vote you again right away

if NK gets Lynch resitance in some way it needs to be not obv maybe make some randoms switch their vote to inno so it looks like you werent found guilty sure sharp town can notice it and say hey i didnt vote that but its cant be confirmed and puts some of the guilt off you

this should also be a day ability so NK can choose when they want it so it cant be used to metagame and just see if the person is NK without the intention of hanging them

[TheFluffyWaffleV2]

I've suggested before that NKs should have a sort of "lynch resistance", where it takes more votes to guilty them on the stand than to guilty other roles. Say, a minimum of 3 more Guilty votes than Innocent votes in order to lynch an NK.

Walking off the stand when you were guiltied by a margin of 1 or 2 will out you, sure, but it's never worse than dying on the spot.

There are some obvious ways this idea could get worryingly close to being a problem, but I haven't been able to find a situation that firmly demonstrates that it would be a problem.

this just confirms they are evil and get townies who didnt vote before or Innoed to vote you this time. you can says it better then just dying but anyone with a brain would just vote you again right away

if NK gets Lynch resitance in some way it needs to be not obv maybe make some randoms switch their vote to inno so it looks like you werent found guilty sure sharp town can notice it and say hey i didnt vote that but its cant be confirmed and puts some of the guilt off you

this should also be a day ability so NK can choose when they want it so it cant be used to metagame and just see if the person is NK without the intention of hanging them

When NK gets lynched he kills everyone who voted guilty :D.
no need to thank me.

[Mystoc]

When NK gets lynched he kills everyone who voted guilty .
no need to thank me.

Their goal is to live so they still lose this is also just a WW jester and doesnt fix NK losing to much

im guessing your saying this as a joke though

[cob709]

I've suggested before that NKs should have a sort of "lynch resistance", where it takes more votes to guilty them on the stand than to guilty other roles. Say, a minimum of 3 more Guilty votes than Innocent votes in order to lynch an NK.

Walking off the stand when you were guiltied by a margin of 1 or 2 will out you, sure, but it's never worse than dying on the spot.

There are some obvious ways this idea could get worryingly close to being a problem, but I haven't been able to find a situation that firmly demonstrates that it would be a problem.

this just confirms they are evil and get townies who didnt vote before or Innoed to vote you this time. you can says it better then just dying but anyone with a brain would just vote you again right away

if NK gets Lynch resitance in some way it needs to be not obv maybe make some randoms switch their vote to inno so it looks like you werent found guilty sure sharp town can notice it and say hey i didnt vote that but its cant be confirmed and puts some of the guilt off you

this should also be a day ability so NK can choose when they want it so it cant be used to metagame and just see if the person is NK without the intention of hanging them

Perhaps a fair "lynch resistance" would change all ABSTAINS to INNOCENT.
This will make sure that town still has the chance to lynch evils without changing lynching mechanics/conditions for NKs.

Edit: Let's focus on changing the actual role.

[Mystoc]

Perhaps a fair "lynch resistance" would change all ABSTAINS to INNOCENT.
This will make sure that town still has the chance to lynch evils without changing lynching mechanics/conditions for NKs.

to obv though its needs to subtle if changes all abstain to ino multiple people will say i didnt vote that and just go vote them up again, it cant be all or nothing it needs to be 1-3 votes changed at most to even stand a chance of fooling town

[Brilliand]

this just confirms they are evil and get townies who didnt vote before or Innoed to vote you this time. you can says it better then just dying but anyone with a brain would just vote you again right away

Yes, it's exactly the same as just dying, in all cases except when there are only 2 other players left. [Or when it's the 3rd trial of the day, or when the Town actually doesn't want the NK dead, but those are edge cases.]

When there are only a total of 3 players left (sans Mayor), it is literally impossible to get the 3 guilties necessary to lynch the NK. This guarantees that the NK will win the 1v1v1 kingmaker scenarios, where currently they have to beg the kingmaker to let them win.

this should also be a day ability so NK can choose when they want it so it cant be used to metagame and just see if the person is NK without the intention of hanging them

With my proposal, the only way to test whether someone is NK is to guilty them on the stand and see if they die. Not a very useful test, unless you specifically want to hang a Maf while being careful not to hang the NK.

(It's very thematically appropriate to the Salem Witch Trials, though.)

[cob709]

Alright let's move on from the lynching resistance, let's find other potential ways to buff NKs.

The problem with NKs is that they're solo, and they're outed extremely easily during late game, can we find a solution for this?

[Mystoc]

Yes, it's exactly the same as just dying, in all cases except when there are only 2 other players left. [Or when it's the 3rd trial of the day, or when the Town actually doesn't want the NK dead, but those are edge cases.]

If there are only two players neither can vote each other up anyway 1 out 2 isnt a majority
NK gets hanged next day if they were the 3rd trial
if town is keeping NK alive they are doing to help them kill maf so NK lost

I would say its still the same as about dying but delayed a day at best maybe that will help NK win though

When there are only a total of 3 players left (sans Mayor), it is literally impossible to get the 3 guilties necessary to lynch the NK. This guarantees that the NK will win the 1v1v1 kingmaker scenarios, where currently they have to beg the kingmaker to let them win.

you said 3 more then usual which is 1 so wouldnt they need 4 guilties to hang them that seems like alot I would change it too 2 more guilties then usual so in the situation describe 3 would be needed like you said

you may as well just say NK wins if its the last 3 alive automatically if jailor is dead then its a good buff you have
but it doesn't really apply anywhere expect when NK is in final 3
other times at best it delays you dying a night because it outs you as NK

the day abiltity part was talking about my idea to change it but after rereading it I do like yours better but i feel it would only ever help in the final 3 based on my points above


EDIT: ok dropping lynch resist i said my peace though NK needs rb immunity and witch immunity maybe i can think of more

[Brilliand]

[b]you said 3 more then usual which is 1 so wouldnt they need 4 guilties to hang them that seems like alot I would change it too 2 more guilties then usual so in the situation describe 3 would be needed like you said

"A minimum of 3 more Guilty votes than Innocent votes"

which is 2 more than what is needed to lynch most other roles, so it seems we are in agreement.

[Mystoc]

[b]you said 3 more then usual which is 1 so wouldnt they need 4 guilties to hang them that seems like alot I would change it too 2 more guilties then usual so in the situation describe 3 would be needed like you said

"A minimum of 3 more Guilty votes than Innocent votes"

which is 2 more than what is needed to lynch most other roles, so it seems we are in agreement.

seems so I read it as need 3 guilty votes or 3 more guilty then innocent votes

OP is right though should move on from this point is derailing the thread next idea seems like good idea

[cob709]

Alright let's go back to solving the problem of NKs not being able to survive late game.
The optimal situation for NK is that Town and Mafia are having an extreme face off, while NE is helping NK.
Even in this scenario, the NK will still probably lose because mafia and town will greatly outnumber 1 NK + 1 NE.

How can we solve this problem? Perhaps evils should be given an incentive to side with NKs? Or give them a reliable way to not be exposed?

[ABadWord]

If we just make SK a sneaky atrial attacker it might make it TO hard to find him. But it would be a good and fun direction. A serial killer is a mastermind of deception, maybe a way to confuse other players could make finding SK harder. Maybe a way to direct suspicion to many people, or being able to mask your identity when you successfully kill.

Arsonist is also a sneaky attacker, relying on prediction. However its hard to predict who wont die by N7 on D1. If we gave him ways to prevent losing many nights of work from random killings of the 57 killing roles would help. Something like if someone kills someone the night they where doused or the night after, then they are doused. Or some sort of crowd dousing mechanic where you save up gas up to 3 cans, but then we'd be stepping on WW toes.

WW should be a menace. The main issue is if everyone stays home on full moons then its a SK that get a kill every other night. If they could instead of rampaging be able to go on a blood fueled killing spree of chaining kills from house to house then they would be a proper threat. But if they can attack multiple houses in a night they could become way to threataning to the point where when a WW kills every faction works together to kill it (and lord knows Pest has that problem enough aaaAAAAA).

NK is a very sad role, it cant vote up others, its got no friends, in a game about factions and voting up others. And if its made strong enough to counteract this then people would hate NK for stomping games unless you play VERY well against them (and this game has quite the casual scene so that would be a little bit terrible).

I've had the idea for a few months of a misfits faction where they would be in cahoots with one another, but a faction with ~3 kills a night is a bad idea. I don't think there would be an incentive for NE to side with them, unless you changed the wincon to Have Town and Maf lose, but then that's a weird NC role (that gives me an idea damnit. Dont steal that. It mine.) and less of a NE.

If there was clearer structure then "eh just kill everyone, like all of them, alone." Then we would have a direction to take them in, but right now they sit as Mafia/Coven kills that might backfire, and then they get killed by said Mafia/Coven. Really sad role, hope they can be fixed, but while I see the issues, I have little idea on where to start.

[Brilliand]

There are NK buffs planned for the next patch

IMO any proposals in this thread from here on out should be relative to the buffed versions that Achilles proposed (unless you want to argue that Achilles' buffs are poor choices).

[cob709]

There are NK buffs planned for the next patch

IMO any proposals in this thread from here on out should be relative to the buffed versions that Achilles proposed (unless you want to argue that Achilles' buffs are poor choices).

It seems like Achilles plans to increase NK's KPN, this will make them all more unique and different, but this might also cause problems for the NK.

Players are gonna realize that NKs are gonna be the greater threat, and then turn on them. They're gonna be outed one way or another, so they need to gain the favor of the NE, but if the NE dies then that's also gonna be problem.

I feel like NKs still won't be able to win alone.

[Mystoc]

Im fine with NK getting buffed but its important to remember if they win almost everyone else loses

they are just 1/15 people in a game, they cant be winning 50% of time so well buffs are good lets not go overboard
i feel like winrate of 15-30% is good but im not sure on a balanced number

there's a reason winning NK or NE feels special they are meant to be the underdog they are basically mafia's cushion / distraction

I do feel like you shouldnt lose elo playing NK or NE since they are such underdogs or make it based on kills gotten or days lived instead of did u win the game or not

[ABadWord]

I really like the buffs suggested, I really do.
If it pans out that they're balanced, then fine. But if they still have no chance against the vote.
Then I guess its back to le drawing board as the Redditors say.

[oddluck]

Give NK's a public reveal method like a Mayor, maybe some extra vote power after reveal like a Mayor, but unable to receive whispers after reveal like a Mayor.

[Mystoc]

Give NK's a public reveal method like a Mayor, maybe some extra vote power after reveal like a Mayor, but unable to receive whispers after reveal like a Mayor.

them receiving whisper doesn't matter since they have no team its a nice idea but the lore really wouldnt make sense maybe they scare others into listening to them more since they could be killed so they give their votes more weight idk