The Gunslinger (Neutral Killing)

Suggest new roles or changes to current roles for the game here.

How do you like this roll?

I like it and would like to see it added into ToS
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It could use some work/fixing to it to make it more suitable for the game (Explain in comments)
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I'm not sure (Explain uncertainty)
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I don't think it fits ToS's game-play (Explain why not?)
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Total votes : 7

The Gunslinger (Neutral Killing)

Postby scarfves » Fri Mar 20, 2020 7:00 pm

The Gunslinger

Summary: Yer' a force to be reckoned with pardner, as you get more powerful the more you know your enemy.

Alignment: Neutral Killing

Stats:
Attack: Basic (Basic on Tier 0 & 1, Powerful on Tier 2, Unstoppable on Tier 3)
Defense: Basic (None on Tier 0, Basic on all other Tiers)
Priority: 5

Abilities: You may choose to attack a player each night, and select what their team, alignment, or role they are on a role-card selection chart.

Attributes:
- Depending on your selection, your powers grow on a tier scale. (Example: If you select Mafia for a person and they are a member of the mafia, you do a Tier 1 attack. If you select Mafia killing and they are on the mafia killing alignment, you do a Tier 2 attack. If you select Godfather and they're the Godfather, you do a Tier 3 attack. If you select Godfather but they are just a regular mafioso, you do a Tier 0 action. If you don't select anyone, you perform a Tier -1 action. You have to either be exact and be rewarded, or overshoot your guess and fail. If they are transported, the attack is now based off their role instead of the selected target, which can change the Tier of the action)
- Control Immune (Tier 2 & 3 only)
- Roleblock Immune (Tier 2 & 3 only)
- Detection Immune (Tier 2, 3, & -1 only)

Tiered Actions:
  • Tier 0 (Wrong anything): Mark a target. If you mark an already marked target, you will deal a Basic attack to them. If a Sheriff investigates you that night, they will know that you're a Gunslinger.
  • Tier 1 (Correct Team): You will deal a Basic attack to your target and gain a basic defense for the night. You will appear suspicious to a Sheriff.
  • Tier 2 (Correct Alignment): You will deal a Powerful attack to your target and gain a basic defense for the night. You won't appear suspicious to a Sheriff and you are Control & Roleblock Immune.
  • Tier 3 (Correct Role): You will deal a Unstoppable attack and gain a basic defense for the night, your attack will roleblock the victim aswell. You won't appear suspicious to a Sheriff and you are Control & Roleblock Immune.
  • Tier -1 (No selection nor attack): You will gain a basic defense for the night. You won't appear suspicious to a Sheriff.

Goal: Rid the town of the scum-sucking vermin, HEEHAW! (Kill everyone who would oppose you).

Win Conditions:
Wins with: Witch
Wins with: Survivor
Wins with: Guardian Angel
Wins with: Pirate
Wins with: Gunslinger
Must Kill: Town
Must Kill: Mafia
Must Kill: Serial Killer
Must Kill: Werewolf
Must Kill: Arsonist
Must Kill: Coven
Must Kill: Juggernaut
Must Kill: Vampire
Must Kill: Plaguebearer
Must Kill: Pestilence



Investigative Results:
Sheriff:
  • Tier 0 (Wrong Anything): Your target is a Gunslinger!
  • Tier 1 (Correct Team): Your target is suspicious.
  • Tier 2, 3, & -1 (Correct Alignment & above, or no selection): You cannot find evidence of wrongdoing. Your target seems innocent.
Investigator: Your target is waiting for the perfect moment to strike, Your target could be a Sheriff, Executioner, Werewolf, Poisoner, or Gunslinger.
Consigilere: Your target is always preparing to attack, they must be a Gunslinger.

The Gunslinger, if added, will present an interesting challenge to all other players in game, as revealing a role could mean certain death to an powerful astral attack, think twice before you call out "TP LO". The Gunslinger, while powerful if they can select the right roles, can easily be caught with their pants down if careless with their aim. The Gunslinger is a role with the intention to strike fear and uncertainty into all players and make them feel like they're up against a big scary monster of a person, like an actual NK should be, but also requires careful consideration just as much as the Gunslinger themselves. Sometimes claiming a role early for protection will earn you a grave in this one horse town.

Achievements:
  • Equilibrium: Win 1 game as a Gunslinger.
  • Gun Nut: Win 5 games as a Gunslinger.
  • One-Handed Talent: Win 10 games as a Gunslinger.
  • Desperado: Win 25 games as a Gunslinger.
  • Trigger Happy: Kill four players in a single game with Tier 3 attacks.
  • Wicked Wild: Kill a Town member that had a Town Protective protecting them and survive.
  • Rough Rider: Kill someone while someone attempted to Roleblock you and failed.
  • Six Gunnin: Kill someone that has a Unstoppable Attack with a Tier 3 Attack.
  • In distress: Win the game without missing a shot.
  • Where my hand at?: Kill a Sheriff with a Tier 3 Attack.
  • Remember the Chains: Kill a Town Killing and Town Protective back-to-back within 2 nights.
  • Reload: Get 25 Tier 3 kills (not in a single game).
  • Now you wanna talk: Kill someone that tried to attack you but was blocked by your basic defense.
  • Enemy at the parch: Get a Tier 3 kill at Night 1.
  • Break out ol' Betsy: Kill 10 killing roles with Tier 2 or above attacks (not in a single game).
  • When we rollin': Kill the Plaguebearer before they become Pestilence

CHANGELOG:
Changes to yer fellas suggestions. 2020-03-20
  • Attribute Change: Control Immune + Roleblock Immune Control Immune (Tier 2 & 3 only) + Roleblock Immune (Tier 2 & 3 only)
  • Tier 0 Stat Change: Your attack is a dead miss. If an Investigator or Sheriff investigate you that night, they will know that you're a Gunslinger You will deal a Basic attack to your target. If a Sheriff investigates you that night, they will know that you're a Gunslinger.
  • Tier 2 Stat Change: You will Rampage at a player's house with a Powerful attack. You gain a basic defense for the night. You will deal a Powerful attack to your target and gain a basic defense for the night. + You are Control & Roleblock Immune.
  • Tier 3 Stat Change: You will Rampage at a player's house with a Unstoppable Astral attack. You gain a basic defense for the night. You will deal a Powerful Astral attack and gain a basic defense for the night. + You are Control & Roleblock Immune.
  • Attribute Change: At the start of the game, all players will be alerted that a Gunslinger has entered the town No notification of the Gunslinger's arrival. We're stealthy in this pardner, YEEHAW!
Yeah the whole "Basic attack on tier 0" change was a flunk on my part, Gunslinger shouldn't get lucky shots all the time. 2020-03-20 (Second try)
  • Tier 0 Stat Change: You will deal a Basic attack to your target. Your attack is a dead miss.
  • New Achievements
New update to the Gunslinger. Possibly the last since post doesn't have much traction and TOS hasnt done anything with new roles in a while. 2020-04-07
  • Tier 0 Stat Change: Your attack is a dead miss. Mark a target. If you mark an already marked target, you will deal a Basic attack to them.
  • Tier 3 Stat Change: You will deal a Powerful Astral attack and gain a basic defense for the night. You will deal a Unstoppable attack and gain a basic defense for the night, your attack will roleblock the victim aswell.
Possibly last change to my best role idea: The Gunslinger. I want to edit this post for possibly the last time before I never can edit again and its going to be found years later and implemented I supposed. 2020-07-01
  • Tier 3 Stat Change: You will deal a Unstoppable attack and gain a basic defense for the night, your attack will roleblock the victim aswell. You will deal a Unstoppable Astral attack and gain a basic defense for the night, your attack will roleblock the victim aswell.

In the comments, thoughts?
Last edited by scarfves on Wed Jul 01, 2020 9:20 pm, edited 7 times in total.
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Re: The Gunslinger (Neutral Killing)

Postby Brilliand » Fri Mar 20, 2020 7:37 pm

Oh hey, sort of like my Assassin.

Some objections I have to this version:
  • The town really shouldn't get a D1 notification that a particular role exists. They can find out when it first kills, like every other NK.
  • Changing the Sheriff and Investigator results based on whether you guessed right... doesn't seem right to me.
  • The penalties for guessing wrong seems unnecessary to me. Missing a chance to kill is bad enough.
  • Rampage is generally a bad mechanic. I'm guessing this role's Rampage is meant to heavily punish D1 Jailor claims... but that's unnecessary; getting a free kill on the Jailor is enough, you don't need to turn him into a bomb too.
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Re: The Gunslinger (Neutral Killing)

Postby scarfves » Fri Mar 20, 2020 8:13 pm

Brilliand wrote:Oh hey, sort of like my Assassin.

bruh my original name for the gunslinger was originally going to be assassin then i started playing pvz2's wild west world and just grew to love cowboys. YEEERHHHAWWW!!!
Brilliand wrote:The town really shouldn't get a D1 notification that a particular role exists. They can find out when it first kills, like every other NK.

The idea for this is that without a proper confirmation of the NK, a jailor could blindly ask for a TP LO, then immediately get nae nae'd by our Gunslinger, plus a Gunslinger could hold off on shooting anyone until a major key role is revealed, then he could strike, catching everyone off by surprise. Its similar to how Pestilence is announced to arrived, putting the town into a new mindset of finding the Pestilence.
Brilliand wrote:Changing the Sheriff and Investigator results based on whether you guessed right... doesn't seem right to me.

Well the Gunslinger is always detection immune from the sheriff, but I thought there should be even more punishment to the Gunslinger if they either missed a shot, or went for a easy team guess
Brilliand wrote:The penalties for guessing wrong seems unnecessary to me. Missing a chance to kill is bad enough.

Perhaps. The original idea was that the target was marked on Tier 0, and if you mark an already marked target, you deal a basic attack to them, but I then had second thoughts about it since I wanted to mimic the feeling of a Gunslinger duel, and how the Gunslinger would miss a shot during the duel and run away
Brilliand wrote:Rampage is generally a bad mechanic. I'm guessing this role's Rampage is meant to heavily punish D1 Jailor claims... but that's unnecessary; getting a free kill on the Jailor is enough, you don't need to turn him into a bomb too.

I do agree now that rampage might not fit the character of the Gunslinger and overall Town of Salem's gameplay since it can gain too many kills at once. I had in mind that a Tier 2 attack should definitely kill someone, if not the target, meaning it could kill someone protecting them. One idea I currently have is to change Tier 2's attack from Rampaging Powerful to just Unstoppable, however that would mean that it would negate the Doctor/Potion Master, Bodyguard, Crusader, Jailor, Trapper, and Guardian Angel, which I believe should still save someone at Tier 2 and below, but perhaps not for Tier 3, however that depends how likely it is to correctly guess someone's team and alignment. For Tier 3, I was thinking instead of Rampaging Unstoppable Astral Attack, it would be a Unstoppable Astral Attack with a priority of 1, not exactly killing anyone who visits, but possibly negating their purpose in the first place.

I will change and edit the Gunslinger later to make it more balanced and suitable for town of salem, but I'm holding back on any changes so far to get more opinions/comments later about what exactly defines the Gunslinger and what are some agreed upon requests/patches.
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Re: The Gunslinger (Neutral Killing)

Postby DragonClaw66 » Sat Mar 21, 2020 11:22 am

I actually really like this role. Weak in the hands of a clueless player, strong in the hands of one who knows what they are doing. It's still a cool concept, but they are still some things you should probably change.

It has permanent roleblock and control immunity.

In my opinion, these powerful attributes should be something you should earn. They'd be good rewards for the players at higher tiers.

It can be killed with a basic attack (tier 0 is pretty bad in general).

Sure, the player actually has to incorrectly guess information about the target, but the lack of a kill is still a huge setback. Also remove the counterattack part and the ability for the Investigator to immediately find them at tier 0.

It alerts the Town of the presence of the role.

This is completely unnecessary. I get that you want this part so that the role cannot completely obliterate a single person when they reveal their role (particularly Jailor), but it doesn't seem like that big of a deal to me. Remove the notification... and maybe nerf its unstoppable attack at tier 3 to powerful? It ensures a strong attack, but this way Town Protective roles can still defend revealed players.

It can benefit off of doing nothing.

I don't like tier -1. Its benefits should be earned from guessing information correctly.

It can rampage.

I hate the rampage mechanic. I would try to avoid using this; replace it with something else (for example, take the roleblock and control immunity and make them tier effects).
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Re: The Gunslinger (Neutral Killing)

Postby Brilliand » Sat Mar 21, 2020 11:53 am

scarfves wrote:
Brilliand wrote:The town really shouldn't get a D1 notification that a particular role exists. They can find out when it first kills, like every other NK.

The idea for this is that without a proper confirmation of the NK, a jailor could blindly ask for a TP LO, then immediately get nae nae'd by our Gunslinger, plus a Gunslinger could hold off on shooting anyone until a major key role is revealed, then he could strike, catching everyone off by surprise. Its similar to how Pestilence is announced to arrived, putting the town into a new mindset of finding the Pestilence.


One of the great things about this role is that it makes early Jailor reveals a bad idea. If the Town is unsure at first whether there's a Gunslinger, then the Jailor is deterred from claiming early even in non-Gunslinger games - that's a good thing!

DragonClaw66 wrote:I actually really like this role. Weak in the hands of a clueless player, strong in the hands of one who knows what they are doing. It's still a cool concept, but they are still some things you should probably change.


I wonder what you think of my Assassin role? I don't think you ever commented on that.

DragonClaw66 wrote:It can benefit off of doing nothing.

I don't like tier -1. Its benefits should be earned from guessing information correctly.


I would think of tier -1 as its "default" stats; so rather than tier -1 getting benefits, tier 0 is getting penalties beyond merely "action fails".
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Re: The Gunslinger (Neutral Killing)

Postby DragonClaw66 » Sat Mar 21, 2020 3:27 pm

Brilliand wrote:
DragonClaw66 wrote:I actually really like this role. Weak in the hands of a clueless player, strong in the hands of one who knows what they are doing. It's still a cool concept, but they are still some things you should probably change.

I wonder what you think of my Assassin role? I don't think you ever commented on that.

Your role I like just as much, if not more than this one. Yours requires a lot more deduction on the player’s part and yields a very strong reward for guessing correctly (an unstoppable, astral attack), while scarfves’ lets the player be a little safer. I’d say combining both would create the perfect version (create weak rewards for correctly guessing things like faction and role type, but grant extreme power when the role is correctly guessed).
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Re: The Gunslinger (Neutral Killing)

Postby scarfves » Sun Mar 22, 2020 11:28 am

CHANGELOG:
Changes to yer fellas suggestions. 2020-03-20
  • Attribute Change: Control Immune + Roleblock Immune Control Immune (Tier 2 & 3 only) + Roleblock Immune (Tier 2 & 3 only)
  • Tier 0 Stat Change: Your attack is a dead miss. If an Investigator or Sheriff investigate you that night, they will know that you're a Gunslinger You will deal a Basic attack to your target. If a Sheriff investigates you that night, they will know that you're a Gunslinger.
  • Tier 2 Stat Change: You will Rampage at a player's house with a Powerful attack. You gain a basic defense for the night. You will deal a Powerful attack to your target and gain a basic defense for the night. + You are Control & Roleblock Immune.
  • Tier 3 Stat Change: You will Rampage at a player's house with a Unstoppable Astral attack. You gain a basic defense for the night. You will deal a Powerful Astral attack and gain a basic defense for the night. + You are Control & Roleblock Immune.
  • Attribute Change: At the start of the game, all players will be alerted that a Gunslinger has entered the town No notification of the Gunslinger's arrival. We're stealthy in this pardner, YEEHAW!

DragonClaw66 wrote:
Brilliand wrote:
DragonClaw66 wrote:I actually really like this role. Weak in the hands of a clueless player, strong in the hands of one who knows what they are doing. It's still a cool concept, but they are still some things you should probably change.

I wonder what you think of my Assassin role? I don't think you ever commented on that.

Your role I like just as much, if not more than this one. Yours requires a lot more deduction on the player’s part and yields a very strong reward for guessing correctly (an unstoppable, astral attack), while scarfves’ lets the player be a little safer. I’d say combining both would create the perfect version (create weak rewards for correctly guessing things like faction and role type, but grant extreme power when the role is correctly guessed).


In truth I hope Town of Salem will add some role that allows you to gain benefits based on guessing the correction faction/team/role, and possibly another role that allows for much more intelligent plays on the NK side, so I combined the two. I still think Tier -1 is ok since its meant to be a safe spot as if the Gunslinger doesn't want to make a wrong guess and risk their defense, and I gave Tier 0 a basic attack, but not their defense, to make them similar to a Mafioso and differentiate the two tiers. I was thinking that possibly the Gunslinger should attack role blockers on higher tiers, but then we'd run into another SK argument, so he's just RB and control immune on Tier 2 and 3 only, and technically Tier -1 since the Cowboy wasn't doing anything that night. Overall, I feel that the changes suggested work well with our Rootin Tootin Wild West Shootin Cowboy
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Re: The Gunslinger (Neutral Killing)

Postby Brilliand » Sun Mar 22, 2020 12:58 pm

I don't think it's a good idea to let the Gunslinger perform an attack at tier 0 (when he guesses wrong). If he's easily able to get an attack off every night in the base case where no one visits him and no one protects his target, then he plays petty much like a Serial Killer, just with some minor perks if he guesses someone's role.

By complaining that tier 0 penalizes the Gunslinger too much, I meant that every penalty except the missed attack should be removed. Make tier 0 turn out exactly the same as tier -1, imo (except that you can be seen visiting by a Lookout or Tracker).
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Re: The Gunslinger (Neutral Killing)

Postby DragonClaw66 » Sun Mar 22, 2020 5:30 pm

Brilliand wrote:I don't think it's a good idea to let the Gunslinger perform an attack at tier 0 (when he guesses wrong). If he's easily able to get an attack off every night in the base case where no one visits him and no one protects his target, then he plays petty much like a Serial Killer, just with some minor perks if he guesses someone's role.

By complaining that tier 0 penalizes the Gunslinger too much, I meant that every penalty except the missed attack should be removed. Make tier 0 turn out exactly the same as tier -1, imo (except that you can be seen visiting by a Lookout or Tracker).

I agree with this. Allowing the role to attack even when a guess is incorrect almost makes it a better Serial Killer (the only difference being that it doesn't have basic defense). I like all the other changes, though. Good job.
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Re: The Gunslinger (Neutral Killing)

Postby scarfves » Sun Mar 22, 2020 8:05 pm

Yeah the whole "Basic attack on tier 0" change was a flunk on my part, Gunslinger shouldn't get lucky shots all the time. 2020-03-20 (Second try)
  • Tier 0 Stat Change: You will deal a Basic attack to your target. Your attack is a dead miss.
  • New Achievements

But I was thinking, on a Tier 3 attack, should the Gunslinger have the capability to roleblock someone before shooting them? This would affect much more serious roles that wait before they pull off a major play, such as Jailor, Retributionist, or the Arsonist, or would roleblocking a target on a Tier 3 attack be too much?
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Re: The Gunslinger (Neutral Killing)

Postby CrimsonKatana » Sun Mar 22, 2020 8:23 pm

Idk sounds too much like a vigilante too me
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Re: The Gunslinger (Neutral Killing)

Postby Brilliand » Sun Mar 22, 2020 9:53 pm

scarfves wrote:But I was thinking, on a Tier 3 attack, should the Gunslinger have the capability to roleblock someone before shooting them? This would affect much more serious roles that wait before they pull off a major play, such as Jailor, Retributionist, or the Arsonist, or would roleblocking a target on a Tier 3 attack be too much?


Too much power? Definitely not. Roleblocking is well within the level of power that Tier 3 should have.

But my concern is... roleblocking someone isn't always a plus. If the Gunslinger is going for a Jailor or a Vigilante, it's more likely that he wants to not roleblock that person, because by doing so he might save someone else's life. The only role that the Gunslinger would definitely want to roleblock is the Retributionist.
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Re: The Gunslinger (Neutral Killing)

Postby scarfves » Mon Mar 23, 2020 2:16 pm

CrimsonKatana wrote:Idk sounds too much like a vigilante too me

Well the idea of the Vigilante and Gunslinger are similar, a ruthless sharpshooter who has to ensure that they have their right target in sights and have to be careful and aware of their surroundings before they go all trigger happy. Both of them use a similar amount of precaution and exercise before they can start hitting shots that matter. The NK alignment need a role that's more than just "haha click on target and kill bad men who have power" that isn't a slow and uneventful arsonist, and the only independent role that really follows a new tradition and strategy to their archetype is the plaguebearer but that isnt even a NK.
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Re: The Gunslinger (Neutral Killing)

Postby OreCreeper » Thu Apr 02, 2020 8:15 pm

Really, what's the difference between a powerful and basic attack? Well, for a powerful attack, you can kill the Godfather and Executioner/Witch (in Ranked). That doesn't really seem that useful, does it? There's really no reason why a Neutral Killing should be attacking NE, and although being able to kill GF is kind of useful, the main goal of NKs are to kill Town. Powerful attack is really not that rewarding in that respect. Every TP role provides Powerful defense, rendering a Powerful attack meaningless against confirmed roles. The Jailor meta is still going to happen, this is basically just a weaker SK.
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Re: The Gunslinger (Neutral Killing)

Postby scarfves » Thu Apr 02, 2020 9:09 pm

OreCreeper wrote:Really, what's the difference between a powerful and basic attack? Well, for a powerful attack, you can kill the Godfather and Executioner/Witch (in Ranked). That doesn't really seem that useful, does it? There's really no reason why a Neutral Killing should be attacking NE, and although being able to kill GF is kind of useful, the main goal of NKs are to kill Town. Powerful attack is really not that rewarding in that respect. Every TP role provides Powerful defense, rendering a Powerful attack meaningless against confirmed roles. The Jailor meta is still going to happen, this is basically just a weaker SK.


That is true, the only real target would be a Godfather or a vesting Bodyguard in a ranked game, but those plays can still matter. Comparing a SK to a Godfather: The Godfather has detection immunity, 3 mafia members protecting him, and not killing anyone who roleblocks him (which I consider to be a bad thing since it immediately makes you a prime suspect when you kill the role blocker), and most of the time, the Godfather makes it out alive faster than the SK due to these bonuses, making him more potent. Plus, if you aim for what you believe to be Mafioso and select Mafia Killing, you could potentially hit the godfather and bag him early. Otherwise, it makes more of a situational upside to get the right alignment, which only comes well into play in custom modes. I am thinking of making a change, one idea is to roleblock the target on a Tier 2 and Tier 3 attack as to stall the major role. What do you think?
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Re: The Gunslinger (Neutral Killing)

Postby scarfves » Tue Apr 07, 2020 12:49 pm

New update to the Gunslinger. Possibly the last since post doesn't have much traction and TOS hasnt done anything with new roles in a while. 2020-04-07
  • Tier 0 Stat Change: Your attack is a dead miss. Mark a target. If you mark an already marked target, you will deal a Basic attack to them.
  • Tier 3 Stat Change: You will deal a Powerful Astral attack and gain a basic defense for the night. You will deal a Unstoppable attack and gain a basic defense for the night, your attack will roleblock the victim aswell.
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Re: The Gunslinger (Neutral Killing)

Postby Brilliand » Tue Apr 07, 2020 1:06 pm

scarfves wrote:
  • Tier 3 Stat Change: You will deal a Powerful Astral attack and gain a basic defense for the night. You will deal a Unstoppable attack and gain a basic defense for the night, your attack will roleblock the victim aswell.


No longer astral? The Astral part seemed pretty important to me (to avoid the Lookout).
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Re: The Gunslinger (Neutral Killing)

Postby scarfves » Wed Jul 01, 2020 9:30 pm

Possibly last change to my best role idea: The Gunslinger. I want to edit this post for possibly the last time before I never can edit again and its going to be found years later and implemented I supposed. 2020-07-01
  • Tier 3 Stat Change: You will deal a Unstoppable attack and gain a basic defense for the night, your attack will roleblock the victim aswell. You will deal a Unstoppable Astral attack and gain a basic defense for the night, your attack will roleblock the victim aswell.
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