Godfather/Mafioso change. [Mafia]

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Godfather/Mafioso change. [Mafia]

Postby ACourtesan » Tue Mar 17, 2020 6:58 pm

Role Name: Godfather.


Role Alignment: Mafia Killing.

Abilities: Same as before with a minor change.
The Godfather can now designate any Random Mafia member as the Mafioso.

Attributes: Same as before.


Notifications: Same as before.
Night time notification for the player selected to be Mafioso.


Goal: Kill anyone that will not submit to the Mafia.


Win Conditions: Same as before.


Special Attributes:
If there is a Mafioso, he will attack the target instead of you.
You will appear to be a Town member to the Sheriff.
You can talk with the other Mafia at night.


Investigator Results:
Sheriff - Same as before.
Investigator - Same as before.
Consigliere - Same as before.

Achievements: Same as before.
No Underboss - Never bestow the Mafia title.
Sonny Corleone - Always bestow the Mafioso title to one person.


Additional Information:
Mafia now has Mafioso as an honorary title. Ranked Playlist changes to Godfather and 3 RMs.
The Godfather can bestow this title onto any Mafia member at any time.
When he does, the other player becomes a Mafioso and assumes the role and responsibility of a Mafioso until the very next night.
If a member dies as the Mafioso, the title reverts back to the Godfather.
If the Godfather dies, the player designated as Mafioso becomes the permanent, new Godfather.
If no player has been designated as Mafioso, one will be randomly selected to become the new Godfather.


Lore: Same as before.
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Re: Godfather/Mafioso change. [Mafia]

Postby Brilliand » Tue Mar 17, 2020 7:25 pm

This is a decent idea, but Tactical Mafia Kills is better.
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Re: Godfather/Mafioso change. [Mafia]

Postby ACourtesan » Wed Mar 18, 2020 8:14 pm

Brilliand wrote:This is a decent idea, but Tactical Mafia Kills is better.


Disagreed. The reason I don't care for that change is the potential ability for any Mafia member to throw under that circumstance.
My change limits it to one person and removes a redundant role. TMK also, apparently, requires the removal of Ambusher (Not ideal).
This change is about giving Mafia a minor buff through greater flexibility and also destroying the ability for Town to force a draw.
It's just a neater solution that requires very minor reworking overall.
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Re: Godfather/Mafioso change. [Mafia]

Postby Brilliand » Wed Mar 18, 2020 11:48 pm

ACourtesan wrote:The reason I don't care for that change is the potential ability for any Mafia member to throw under that circumstance.


Who cares? If a mafia member wants to throw, they can do that by outing the entire Mafia in daytime chat. Nothing stops them from doing that but the report function.
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Re: Godfather/Mafioso change. [Mafia]

Postby ACourtesan » Thu Mar 19, 2020 11:01 pm

Brilliand wrote:
ACourtesan wrote:The reason I don't care for that change is the potential ability for any Mafia member to throw under that circumstance.


Who cares? If a mafia member wants to throw, they can do that by outing the entire Mafia in daytime chat. Nothing stops them from doing that but the report function.


Yeah but that's reportable and results in a ban.
Being the first one to click a target to kill every night? Less so.
Even voting a target would be preferable to TMK's option of someone choosing to be the Mafioso every night.
Back to square one of someone making dumb choices.
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Re: Godfather/Mafioso change. [Mafia]

Postby Brilliand » Fri Mar 20, 2020 12:30 am

So you're not talking about throwing, you're talking about players being dumb.

With your system, a dumb Godfather can throw every other member of the Mafia to the Veteran, and there's nothing the other Mafia members can do about it.

With Tactical Mafia Kills, the player who controls the kill also suffers the consequences if it goes wrong. If the dumb player picks the Veteran to attack, it's the dumb player who dies. On top of that, the other players have a chance every night to snatch control of the Mafia kill away from him, if he's repeatedly attacking the Jailor with a Doctor alive or something.

It seems to me that Tactical Mafia Kills does a better job of compensating for dumb players.
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Re: Godfather/Mafioso change. [Mafia]

Postby ACourtesan » Fri Mar 20, 2020 10:52 pm

Brilliand wrote:So you're not talking about throwing, you're talking about players being dumb.

With your system, a dumb Godfather can throw every other member of the Mafia to the Veteran, and there's nothing the other Mafia members can do about it.

With Tactical Mafia Kills, the player who controls the kill also suffers the consequences if it goes wrong. If the dumb player picks the Veteran to attack, it's the dumb player who dies. On top of that, the other players have a chance every night to snatch control of the Mafia kill away from him, if he's repeatedly attacking the Jailor with a Doctor alive or something.

It seems to me that Tactical Mafia Kills does a better job of compensating for dumb players.


This change isn't to compensate for dumb players or even address the issue of throwing.
This change is to remove a redundant role, open up another RM slot, providing Mafia with more mechanical flexibility and end the issue of forced draws.
A Godfather can already throw Mafioso to the Veteran and quit out, leaving you to 2 man the Town and NK.

I'm merely critiquing TMK because it allows every role to potentially throw, make dumb choices and makes the Godfather himself redundant.
The potential for abuse is higher under TMK than this system. You have to get the Godfather role to abuse the kill mechanic here whereas any Mafia role
can abuse the kill mechanic under your's. They just have to be faster than the others. Even voting for a target would be preferable to TMK.

I don't know how you think TMK does a better job compensating for dumb players when it increases the likelihood said dumb player gets a role (any Mafia 4/15 vs GF, 1/15) that can lock Mafia out of killing important targets.
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Re: Godfather/Mafioso change. [Mafia]

Postby Brilliand » Fri Mar 20, 2020 11:55 pm

ACourtesan wrote:I don't know how you think TMK does a better job compensating for dumb players when it increases the likelihood said dumb player gets a role (any Mafia 4/15 vs GF, 1/15) that can lock Mafia out of killing important targets.


The difference is that in TMK, said dumb player can't lock the mafia out of killing important targets. They can cause a race at the start of nighttime, in which they have a 1 in 4 chance each night of locking the Mafia out of killing important targets for that night. That's less damaging.

...and if the dumb player walks into the Veteran or Bodyguard, they stop hindering the Mafia. That's a perk of TMK too.
Last edited by Brilliand on Sat Mar 21, 2020 11:55 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Godfather/Mafioso change. [Mafia]

Postby Royee » Sat Mar 21, 2020 10:30 am

***Everyone*** has the ability to either throw or play foolish enough to lose the game, and in fact if you click on the Forum Mafia category(or go to any FM) and go reading some games you will notice that most of the players are playing dumb(bad example but whatever). TMK always does a better job than any other killing methods.
Assuming x will play like y or x will do y is not how to make changes or new roles.
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Re: Godfather/Mafioso change. [Mafia]

Postby ACourtesan » Sat Mar 21, 2020 9:59 pm

Brilliand wrote:
ACourtesan wrote:I don't know how you think TMK does a better job compensating for dumb players when it increases the likelihood said dumb player gets a role (any Mafia 4/15 vs GF, 1/15) that can lock Mafia out of killing important targets.


The difference is that in TMK, said dumb player can't lock the mafia out of killing important targets. They can cause a race at the start of nighttime, in which they have a 1 in 4 chance each night of locking the Mafia out of killing important targets for that night. That's less damaging.

...and if the dumb player walks into the Veteran or Bodyguard, they stop hindering the Mafia. That's a perk of TMK too.


Sure he can. I'll be the dumb player. I can set up an auto clicker that will click faster than you can.
All I have to do is find the Exe/Arso/WW/SK, whatever.
Good luck clicking faster than my automated system that locks in the target with defense.
Like I said, even voting would be preferable to any Mafia member being able to do this.
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Re: Godfather/Mafioso change. [Mafia]

Postby ACourtesan » Sat Mar 21, 2020 10:07 pm

Royee wrote:***Everyone*** has the ability to either throw or play foolish enough to lose the game, and in fact if you click on the Forum Mafia category(or go to any FM) and go reading some games you will notice that most of the players are playing dumb(bad example but whatever). TMK always does a better job than any other killing methods.
Assuming x will play like y or x will do y is not how to make changes or new roles.


Yes, everyone has the ability to throw in certain ways.
I just don't agree that opening up the killing mechanic to all Mafia members is the smarter way to handle it.
TMK requires the removal of Ambusher and makes Godfather mostly redundant.
We don't need to make another Mafia role redundant nor remove one of the better Mafia roles.
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Re: Godfather/Mafioso change. [Mafia]

Postby DragonClaw66 » Sat Mar 21, 2020 11:06 pm

ACourtesan wrote:TMK requires the removal of Ambusher and makes Godfather mostly redundant.
We don't need to make another Mafia role redundant nor remove one of the better Mafia roles.

With TMK, the Godfather is buffed, not left redundant. It receives a list of all night actions directed toward members of the Mafia while also retaining its natural basic defense. Also, why would the Ambusher need to be removed with the addition of TMK? It seems compatible.
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Re: Godfather/Mafioso change. [Mafia]

Postby Brilliand » Sun Mar 22, 2020 1:28 am

ACourtesan wrote:Sure he can. I'll be the dumb player. I can set up an auto clicker that will click faster than you can.
All I have to do is find the Exe/Arso/WW/SK, whatever.
Good luck clicking faster than my automated system that locks in the target with defense.
Like I said, even voting would be preferable to any Mafia member being able to do this.


You're not positing a "dumb player" at this point. You're positing a genius out to throw while pretending to be dumb.

I think you're being ridiculous.
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Re: Godfather/Mafioso change. [Mafia]

Postby ACourtesan » Sun Mar 22, 2020 9:00 am

DragonClaw66 wrote:
ACourtesan wrote:TMK requires the removal of Ambusher and makes Godfather mostly redundant.
We don't need to make another Mafia role redundant nor remove one of the better Mafia roles.

With TMK, the Godfather is buffed, not left redundant. It receives a list of all night actions directed toward members of the Mafia while also retaining its natural basic defense. Also, why would the Ambusher need to be removed with the addition of TMK? It seems compatible.


That doesn't exactly help after the fact unless you're whispering Mafia members to let them know.
Which is problematic unless you're reworking the whisper system?
Nor do I see anywhere where it's mentioned in the thread.

"Ambusher is unfortunately reworked or replaced, as mafia tactical can only function well if one person kills per night."
"Debating this, leaning no: A Godfather has the last word on who carries out the kill and on whom."
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Re: Godfather/Mafioso change. [Mafia]

Postby ACourtesan » Sun Mar 22, 2020 9:25 am

Brilliand wrote:
ACourtesan wrote:Sure he can. I'll be the dumb player. I can set up an auto clicker that will click faster than you can.
All I have to do is find the Exe/Arso/WW/SK, whatever.
Good luck clicking faster than my automated system that locks in the target with defense.
Like I said, even voting would be preferable to any Mafia member being able to do this.


You're not positing a "dumb player" at this point. You're positing a genius out to throw while pretending to be dumb.

I think you're being ridiculous.


lolwut? It doesn't take a genius to set up an auto clicker, my kids could do it.
[I recommend GS Autoclicker if you're in the market].

Throwing is synonymous with dumb, in my estimation, as stated above.
You could be the smartest guy in the world and you're still dumb if you decide to throw.
It does nothing but ruin the game for people trying to enjoy themselves.
All throwers are malicious. But they can do it one of two ways; Quietly or out loud.
Now we have to parse if this person was doing so out of maliciousness or they're just "dumb".

But again, I was merely stating why I disagree that TMK is superior and why I dislike it compared to this one.
It's an opinion. And my opinion isn't going to change because, no matter how you slice it, what I said remains true.
TMK opens up the kill mechanic to throwing abuse to four people instead of one. You can't fix that.
It's an inherent property to the change. And as it stands right now, only one person can abuse the kill mechanic to throw.
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Re: Godfather/Mafioso change. [Mafia]

Postby Royee » Sun Mar 22, 2020 12:20 pm

Its more of a **fact** when it comes to TMK.
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Re: Godfather/Mafioso change. [Mafia]

Postby ACourtesan » Sun Mar 22, 2020 1:26 pm

Royee wrote:Its more of a **fact** when it comes to TMK.


What is? That it's superior?
We can agree to disagree.
Game's been out for 6ish years.
The idea posted for 4.
Could've been changed to that at any point.
They still utilize 1 person control of the killing mechanic.
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Re: Godfather/Mafioso change. [Mafia]

Postby Royee » Sun Mar 22, 2020 2:39 pm

ACourtesan wrote:
Royee wrote:Its more of a **fact** when it comes to TMK.


What is? That it's superior?
We can agree to disagree.
Game's been out for 6ish years.
The idea posted for 4.
Could've been changed to that at any point.
They still utilize 1 person control of the killing mechanic.

There are plenty of ways to design it so there will be less "gamethrowing" involved. Whenever I play mafia I usually tell my teammates what to do and most of the times and even every time they listen to me. If someone wants to throw they will leave the game at the start of it.
ToS has been out for how long satan knows. On the other side FM and if you **insist** mafia turbo games have been a thing more time by far than ToS.
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Re: Godfather/Mafioso change. [Mafia]

Postby Brilliand » Sun Mar 22, 2020 3:57 pm

ACourtesan wrote:lolwut? It doesn't take a genius to set up an auto clicker, my kids could do it.


It isn't just that. You're positing someone who does everything just right to throw effectively. Dumb players don't do that: they only manage to find the NK in a small percentage of games, they only run their autoclicker in a small percentage of games, they only survive long enough to be a problem in a certain percentage of games...

It would take a genius to throw reliably, with so many different ways for the stupidity to fail to matter.

In my opinion, the autoclicker isn't a meaningful factor in whether a dumb player gets to pick the kill: smart players are just as capable of running an autoclicker as dumb players. The only factor that strikes me as meaningfully different between TMK and a Godfather-controls-everything system is:
  • In TMK, the player who chooses the kill is also the one who dies to Bodyguard/Veteran/Lookout
  • In Godfather-controls-everything, the Godfather both chooses the kill and chooses who dies to Bodyguard/Veteran/Lookout
In other words, in TMK, players are responsible for their own choices, and stupid players die early.

ACourtesan wrote:It's an opinion. And my opinion isn't going to change because, no matter how you slice it, what I said remains true.


Whether throwing is worth balancing around is a matter of opinion. Whether TMK increases or reduces throwing is a matter of mathematical analysis that can be solved objectively.

The "1/15" vs. "4/15" factor that you're so focused on is easily canceled out by the fact that under TMK, there is still only one person (1 of those 4 people, or "1/15") controlling the killing each night. Assuming that that one person will always be the worst member of the mafia is just dumb.
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Re: Godfather/Mafioso change. [Mafia]

Postby Royee » Sun Mar 22, 2020 5:05 pm

Isn't there a spam detector or something like that
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Re: Godfather/Mafioso change. [Mafia]

Postby Brilliand » Sun Mar 22, 2020 10:02 pm

Royee wrote:Isn't there a spam detector or something like that


There is something like that, that might inconvenience people using an autoclicker, but it isn't really meant as a security measure against gamethrowing, so I don't want to rely on it.
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