Large overhaul of lots of roles. [Evil role buffs]

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Large overhaul of lots of roles. [Evil role buffs]

Postby Astheral » Mon Dec 16, 2019 12:50 am

Hello everyone.
This is a long list of changes, as well as the reason that motivate them. If you are simply interested into the short, condensed version of my "ideal patch note" to balance out evil roles. Spoiler alert, it is in their favor. It is long, but keep in mind I am perfectly serious when proposing this.
Constructive criticism is appreciated.

Things to take into account when reading my dream patch note :
  • Made to balance "Ranked Practice" in normal mode as well as "Ranked" , as Coven is practically never played anymore (sadly) and All Any in chaos mode isn't meant to be balanced in the first place.
  • My fixes essentially "kills" Coven DLC roles. I'm aware of that. I don't think this is exceptionally fair to players who bought the DLC, however as a vast majority of players who did don't even get to enjoy it, I find in this a very practical, if imperfect solution.

Problems in town of Salem :
  • Some roles are practically "claimable" by evil roles because they are either ridiculously hard to prove unless you specifically contradict someone (which gives you away as soon as this person is lynched or killed), disprovable by the use of a daytime power. I'm thinking specifically of Transporter, Mayor and Jailor.
  • Coordination between town members is extremely easy if you are the Jailor. If you announce yourself on the first day as Jailor, you can hardly get punished for it, if at all.
  • NK and NE wins are negligible.
  • Mafia wins are very rare. So are mafia games where no mafia member disconnects. Read Framer and Forger in particular. This creates a vicious circle, as more and more people choose to "whoops" disconnect as they see they get assigned Godfather, Mafioso, Framer or Forger roles. Or mafia in general. But especially those 4. The more people disconnect, the more mafia loses, and the more mafia loses, the more people disconnect...
  • Framer and Forger are severely underpowered. Forger is outshined by lengths by the Janitor, and Framer's power is so rarely useful that it is negligible. Even worse, if you get investigated you come up as "Framer, Jester or Vampire", the Vigilante and Jailor are likely to target and execute you. Nobody wants a Jester running free.

My proposed way to fix it :
  • As I specifically target Jailors who reveal very fast and get away with it, Lookouts are planned to become weak with this presented patch note. As a preventive change, I propose thatLookout and Tracker roles be merged into one, giving the Lookout the ability to switch between Watching(see who visits target) and Tracking(see who the target visits) as a daytime ability.
  • Give Werewolf a Powerful defense. It is probably the NK with the most success, but not having to worry about BG and Vets mean you can get rid of those pesky jailors who immediately reveal to town their identity. AND don't risk dying when attacking. Tsk, tsk, tsk!
  • Give Serial Killer a daytime power "Distraction" that prevents other daytime powers from activating : Jailor's jailing, Medium's Seance and Mayor's reveal. An already revealed Mayor stays revealed and still has his vote count to three. Probably going to be used as a "get out of jail free" card.
  • Despite being already okay-ish, Arsonists often end up losing because their doused targets get revealed to town and executed, or otherwise die. A small buff would be necessary to counter that. I advise it to be a one-time only daytime power that douses any remaining player alive, but warns the town that this person is effectively doused. (At nightfall, broadcasts " PLAYER's house reek of gas... They are doused! ". Maybe this could also be usable on self, for bluff measures.
  • Either completely remove Framer and replace it by Hypnotist from the coven DLC that everybody bought and nobody plays, or remake Hypnotist and give its old powers to the Framer. It is still very fitting for a Framer to be able to falsly advertise transports, attack & heals, Witch control and such. It effecitvely makes mafia able to claim Transporter role, Doctor and Vigilante role, help out friendly NEs... as long as town is quite innatentive and doesn't seem to notice the Transporter always transes himself with someone else, or that the Doctor heal happened just as there seems to be one too many attack... (see what I did there?)
  • OR , Framer's new power could be, like the Lookout edit I mentioned earlier, that the Framer now has the daytime power to switch between Studying a target's movements (tracking, essentially) or Framing a target. As this is pretty close to IRL Framer motus operandi, I wouldn't think this is too much of a stretch.
  • Give the Forger the ability to interfere much more with wills - even when alive. If Forger can target living players to make them "lose" their will for a day and a night, it won't stand in the Janitor's shadow. Without being overpowered, it can certainly give another bluffing opportunity for Evil roles who get confronted easily. "Sorry, Dog got the homework and Forger ate my will!" My immediate instinct would be to put this on a 3 uses basis, however with the arrival of notes as an additional mechanic, it might be reasonable to give more than 3 uses. To be discussed.
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Re: Large overhaul of lots of roles. [Evil role buffs]

Postby Brilliand » Mon Dec 16, 2019 3:46 pm

I've gotten tired of hearing ideas with their reasons for existing as "Town is too confirmable", "Mafia needs a buff", "Ret is overpowered", "Spy is overpowered", etc. It's not that those aren't valid reasons (they are), but there have already been so many proposals to fix those things that I feel any new proposals also need to explain why they're better than the proposals that already exist. (But to some degree this is on the devs for not implementing any of the fixes yet.)

As for the specific proposals:
  • Merging Lookout with Tracker isn't a nerf, it's a buff. What?
  • Giving WW powerful defense sounds OK to me. It'd probably be good for the Werewolf to have the same effect on the Bodyguard as it has on the Doctor, although I don't think it would make the Werewolf not be underpowered. (BTW SK, not WW, is the NK with the most success - except in All Any, where Arsonist wins.)
  • I don't like the idea of buffing Serial KIller with the ability to effectively roleblock the Jailor once. It seems like the wrong kind of buff to give him.
  • Seems like this Arsonist buff effectively works out to "you can ignite on the same night you douse", which has been proposed before.
  • Nah, Hypnotist is its own thing. Give Framer a rework of its own, don't just use ti as a slot to copy a Coven role into.
  • You want to replace Framer with Osservatore? That's OK I guess, but Osservatore is a Support role while Framer is a Deception role. Doesn't quite fit.
  • Erasing the wills of still-living players is just interface screw. It would pressure players to store their wills outside of the game. Not good.
My best role ideas:
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Re: Large overhaul of lots of roles. [Evil role buffs]

Postby Seththeking » Wed Jan 01, 2020 1:44 am

Framed/Forger already covered.
Hypnotist doesn’t frame Sheriff so it’s not good.
Pro Mafia has a Role that does what Forger and Framer does but more.
All in 1 Role I believe.
I’d have to relook at it.
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Re: Large overhaul of lots of roles. [Evil role buffs]

Postby Seththeking » Wed Jan 01, 2020 1:45 am

Hypnotist is fine as a separate role and it’s better to Change Forger and Framer like I did.
Con Artist and another Role.
1’s a Buffed Framer - Con Artist
And the other has something with forging in it
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Re: Large overhaul of lots of roles. [Evil role buffs]

Postby Seththeking » Wed Jan 01, 2020 1:46 am

Pro Mafia as the most Balance setup of Town of Salem you’ll ever see.
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Re: Large overhaul of lots of roles. [Evil role buffs]

Postby Seththeking » Wed Jan 01, 2020 1:47 am

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Re: Large overhaul of lots of roles. [Evil role buffs]

Postby BasicFourLife » Wed Jan 01, 2020 2:09 am

Seth please stop that awful multi-posting.

Please ignore this man, he’s the embarrassment of Town of Salem and a joke at all forms of balancing, considering he’s been denied every single position he’s ever applied to. Go back to Burger King, Seth. It’s where you belong.
RNG is never good for any strategy based game. Please learn the definition of what that means, especially if you're one of the people constantly defending it.

FM / TG: 5 - 10 - 8
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Re: Large overhaul of lots of roles. [Evil role buffs]

Postby SparkingJay » Wed Jan 01, 2020 8:09 am

BasicFourLife wrote:Seth please stop that awful multi-posting.

Please ignore this man, he’s the embarrassment of Town of Salem and a joke at all forms of balancing, considering he’s been denied every single position he’s ever applied to. Go back to Burger King, Seth. It’s where you belong.

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Re: Large overhaul of lots of roles. [Evil role buffs]

Postby JacksonVirgo » Wed Jan 01, 2020 8:18 am

Seth is the embodiment of logic

On-site FM Record: 8-0-10
Spoiler: Latest Town Game: XX7 - Tracker/Detective/Sheriff/Lookout - Win
Latest Scum Game: 20H - Caporegime/Janitor - Loss
Latest Neutral Game: SFM72 - Failed Assassin - Win
Last updated 20.07.20 AEST


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Re: Large overhaul of lots of roles. [Evil role buffs]

Postby JacksonVirgo » Wed Jan 01, 2020 8:40 am

1. Merging Lookout and Tracker is a buff and would make it even harder for evils to fake-claim. There definitely should be a Lookout/Tracker combo role for Mafia that allows for destroying confirmability but that suggestion can be found here. This would counter the TP/LO meta by literally feeding Mafia who the TP are by doing so.

2. Werewolf with Powerful defense is fine but I would much rather them instead rampage at the Bodyguard's place instead. I feel that would be a much better way to make Doctor and BG different in this circumstance.

3 and 4. They don't really need it. SK is one of the more balanced NK roles anyway. The Arsonist is fine I guess but there are better reworks for it ngl.

5. Framer is good as long is starts effecting a lot more TI than it does now. Sheriff sus, custom invest result and probably make it so it can't roll when there are no sheriffs/investigators should work. No need to replace it with Hypno. (also the hypno heal is not there to fake a heal, it's to fake an attack in the case that the killer is jailed or the Escort is planning on role-blocking the only MK)

6. Forger UI should ideally have the option to open a fake will beside each players name and can add whatever results they have when they come up in the day-chat for easy forges later. But Forger's concept is butchered and I personally have no way to fix it.

On-site FM Record: 8-0-10
Spoiler: Latest Town Game: XX7 - Tracker/Detective/Sheriff/Lookout - Win
Latest Scum Game: 20H - Caporegime/Janitor - Loss
Latest Neutral Game: SFM72 - Failed Assassin - Win
Last updated 20.07.20 AEST


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Re: Large overhaul of lots of roles. [Evil role buffs]

Postby OreoNyan » Wed Jan 22, 2020 3:27 am

Apologies if this has been mentioned before, but I think forger would be much more useful if you could EDIT the previously saved will instead of having to write a totally new one. Of course, there would be no way for the forger to know what the person was planning to do the night they died... but say you’re killing someone N3, you’d be able to CHANGE their n1 and n2 results (I.e. replace the real BG’s name in a LO will with the GF, or just take out a town you want to frame), or add a fake n3 AFTER the existing n1 and n2. Especially for roles like spy and LO, it’s just not possible to fake a whole will, especially if the GF decides to go for someone other than the person who’s fake will you were writing during the day. The only real problem I can think of is that the forger could click forge and then cancel and see everyone’s wills... so it would probably have to be un-cancel-able? That screws over the forger if the GF changes his mind of course.... so the idea might need some work, but I think the idea of forger is good, there’s just not enough TIME to do anything with it most times.
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