Disguiser Re-Work

Suggest new roles or changes to current roles for the game here.

Re: Disguiser Re-Work

Postby NefariousDjinn » Mon Dec 16, 2019 10:30 pm

Boredfan1 wrote:1: I don't have a problem taking criticism, I have a problem with people who CLEARLY don't even understand the thing they are giving criticism of giving criticism and targeting things that aren't even true or a problem. I keep addressing EVERY point made but you don't seem to get why you are wrong. EVERYTHING you guys criticize is a misconception of the role.

1. Every response you've made to criticism has come with an immediate attack on the critic and a defense of "You're just not getting it" followed by repeating the exact same point they already criticized as if repetition changes the critique into something invalid.

2: MOST if not all roles can only fail with external interference or failing to do one's role for whatever other reason like lag or forgot. This is a HORRIBLE argument.

2, No other role that I can think of in the entire game requires the act of performing their ability as their win condition. So this is not a horrible argument but a perfectly valid one.

3: This role has absolutely NO defense, that means the vigilante, mafia, serial killer, werewolf, coven and pirate can kill it. Not to mention the damn arsonist or pestilence.

3. This doesn't mean anything? It's not a rebuttal to any point I made.

4: This role requires you to survive to use your ability THREE times and with escort, consort, jailor and avoiding getting hung, that isn't a simple task. And the mechanics are pretty damn similar, the only difference is there is no RNG bullshit that prevents you from completing your night activity.

4. I have it on good authority that at least 10 players in any game are successfully able to use their ability for three nights in a row. So that sounds like a remarkably simple task. And no, the mechanic is not remotely similar considering the entirety of the pirate role is that RNG bullshit. This is closer to a witch but a witch who only has to control three people in a game to win...

5: The disguiser is broken how it is NOW, this is a COMPLETELY DIFFERENT disguiser MADE to be neutral! You are talking about the disguiser we have now! THAT one is not fit for the game regardless of it's alignment, THIS role WORKS for neutral and you have yet to give any good arguments to say otherwise.

5. Agreed the current disguiser is broken. This disguiser is a bad substitute for the role that you claim fits with being neutral. As I said. Whether a role works as a neutral or not is dependent on opinion. I think this role doesn't have a purpose, it's abilities don't really function outside of serving a faction, and it is completely useless as a lone independent agent because it can't even effectively use its abilities outside of being part of a faction. It has all the problems of the original witch role.. no way to determine allies or foes, no way of knowing who its framing whether they are town or evils, and no effective way of managing what fake information it is feeding town.

6: The whole idea of being a dark reflection of a town role doesn't work with the disguiser because it has NO town counterpart, unlike EVERY OTHER mafia role. It's just lumped in there with doctor and disguiser when it is so different from either of those. And the role as it is now doesn't even hide the identity of a fellow mafia, it's all about itself which is another reason why it doesn't work as part of the mafia theme.

6. My statement was that this Disguiser, works as a member of the mafia as the wording in your original rebuttal implied that you made this version neutral because you didn't think it fit in with the mafia concept. If that wasn't your implication then the point is moot.

7: The role exists to cause chaos, to make it so town can't just get an easy win all the time! It throws town into dissarray by disrupting their investigative results. I have said this multiple times now, how the hell do you not understand that after looking at it?!

7. That is a meaningless statement. "It exists to cause chaos" to what ends? To what benefit? For the goal of what? Just to do it. Maybe the evils get lucky and the disguiser inadvertently helps them. Maybe not. But it doesn't really matter end of the day.

8: Yes, I said that it can't win with town, I got so caught up in arguing everything I forgot that detail.

8. A concession of a point. Progress has been made.

9: Read above and my previous post because no way is it as simple as it just needs to survive three nights.

9. It really is that simple. Let's break this down in a simple formula. This role has a 1/15 chance of being jailed, RBed, Killed, or otherwise hindered at night. With a decreasing return on subsequent nights and roughly the same odds of being hung on any of the subsequent days. Over all when broken down by variables this means that this role has a 1 in 5 chance of failing to be able to accomplish the simple task of using its abilities for three nights. That's a 4 in 5 chance of victory every time you get the role. That's a roughly almost guaranteed 70-85% win rate for the role. And that's without factoring in probabilities of being healed, transported, or protected. It's not an automatic win.. but its definitely the next best thing.

10: The fact that it has to fight to get the three disguises is IS controlling it's own fate and having to try to win. There is no ifs or buts about this, it is simple a fact. And no, having a strong claim space to get your win is the very DEFINITION of controlling your own destiny. Mafia in mafia mode usually don't becaue there's no claim space.

10. It really doesn't have to fight to get those three disguises. And whether it successfully is able to disguise and survive for the necessary nights is entirely dependent on luck. That is the opposite of controlling its fate. It can't prevent itself from being targeted. All it can do is use it's ability. There's no strategy to it. There's no skill. There's nothing. And whether this role has a strong claim space or not is dependent on factors outside of itself. It can't really contribute to its win or loss. It's either able to do the ability or its prevented from doing the ability by the ability of another player. There is no control in that.

11: It's not what you said is superficial, it's that you aren't properly reading the damn role and comprehending what the hell it's about! It's a pretty god damn simple role to understand. THAT'S why I said you have a superficial understanding of the role. And NO, it is NOT the same as the mechanic for the survivor role, that is a LOT different considering it has to vest to survive and CAN vest. How can you even comment on a thread without understanding something so damn basic?!

11. I can't tell if you're being deliberately obtuse or simply lack reading comprehension. You wanted to add a mechanic to the survivor of gathering supplies. A mechanic that contributed nothing to the game but had to arbitrarily accomplished to earn a victory. That mechanism of "Use this ability x amount of times" is the same as the mechanic in this role. It is a bad mechanic. At least this ability actually has an effect on the game when you use it... but the mechanic itself is bad. It will always be bad. There has never been and probably never will be a role where "Use your ability x times and win" will be a good and efficient mechanic of playing the role. I do not understand why you seem so married to it.

12: It is already viable!!!! If the target needs to be killed at night or hung, then it's viability goes down the drain because that's extremely hard to predict! Not to mention it beats the exact purpose of this role! And would require you to ally with someone to win when you have no idea who is what most of the time and you can die easily at night. If the target is jailed however, I do agree they shouldn't count.

12. Yet another reason this role doesn't function effectively as a neutral... though not "another" as this is just you agreeing to the point that I made previously before I actually made it. So thank you for your premature agreement. And I agree. Making it so that the disguised target had to die to count would be a bad mechanic.. but at least it would make the role have an independent goal that it would have to actually work to accomplish and thus create some functionality to the role to make it playable. I do concede that if that mechanic was added, I'd still reject the role for those very reasons.

13: Making it so the town has to lose wouldn't work because it already hardly works for the witch. It is on it's own, it can get killed and then it just loses, like witch does and witch loses A LOT.

That is not a valid argument for why it wouldn't work. That's just an objection to making the role challenging to play. But yes, it would still be a bad role even if these changes were implemented.. but at least then it would fit within the neutral spectrum because it would have an independent objective that didn't align to any particular faction.

14: I am arguing EVERY god damn point WITH ACTUAL counter arguments! How about you actually TRY to think about it for more than a second than using a superificial look at what I am saying!

Do I need to quote you everytime your counter argument was literally "No it isn't!" with no real meat or substance. Because I can. And more importantly I will.

This role is clearly designed with the idea of deception in mind and it would work best aligned to an evil faction where it can use its abilities to disguise the roles of its fellow faction members to not only hinder the likelihood of their discovery but also interfere with towns ability to trust their TI results.

It doesn't have an Independent Objective that it actually has to accomplish that would or should prevent it from being aligned to a faction so there's no reason for it to be neutral.
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