Disguiser Re-Work

[Boredfan1]

Name: Disguiser
Alignment: Neutral Chaos
Ability:
Choose a target to disguise.

Attributes
-Choose two players, one to be disguised and one to be disguised as.
-The one being disguised as will have their name replaced with the name of the one disguised as.
-The role of the disguised will appear as the role of the disguised as to investigator and sheriff.
-When killed, by hanging or at night, they will appear as the role they were disguised as.
-Has no attack.
-Has no defense.
-This role is unique.

Goal: Disguise three players.

Wins With:
Town
Survivor
Mafia
Serial Killer
Werewolf
Arsonist
Witch
Jester
Executioner
Vampires
Coven
Pirate
Plaguebearer/Pestilience
Juggernaut
Guardian Angel

Investigative Results
Sheriff: Your target is innocent.
Investigator: Doctor/Disguiser/Serial Killer
Consigliere: Your target likes to pull pranks! They are a disguiser!
Witch: Your target likes to pull pranks! They are a disguiser!


I am somewhat concerned it may be OP but it can at least die fairly easily. Thoughts?

[Superalex11]

Unless I'm missing something, doesn't this just come down to surviving 3 nights (maybe 4 due to disruptions)?

[Boredfan1]

Unless I'm missing something, doesn't this just come down to surviving 3 nights (maybe 4 due to disruptions)?

That's a gross simplification. It's not much different than the pirate, just it doesn't kill, only disrupts the town's ability to collect info and people for a reason I will never understand love being the pirate. You also have to be careful since no one will likely want you around so it does take strategy, not just surviving three or four nights.

[JacksonVirgo]

This can essentially claim D1 and claim what they're doing and win by N3 without being killed

[Boredfan1]

This can essentially claim D1 and claim what they're doing and win by N3 without being killed

No. Why would anyone want to keep it around? It hurts everyone. Town would also lynch it just because it's not town and they can't use it against the mafia or vamps or coven. They'd be shot by vig or exed by the jailor for the same reasons. Mafia can't really use it either, nor coven or vamps so they'd kill it.

[JacksonVirgo]

This can essentially claim D1 and claim what they're doing and win by N3 without being killed

No. Why would anyone want to keep it around? It hurts everyone. Town would also lynch it just because it's not town and they can't use it against the mafia or vamps or coven. They'd be shot by vig or exed by the jailor for the same reasons. Mafia can't really use it either, nor coven or vamps so they'd kill it.

Why does majority of Towns let Pirate live when they can kill town then?

[Boredfan1]

This can essentially claim D1 and claim what they're doing and win by N3 without being killed

No. Why would anyone want to keep it around? It hurts everyone. Town would also lynch it just because it's not town and they can't use it against the mafia or vamps or coven. They'd be shot by vig or exed by the jailor for the same reasons. Mafia can't really use it either, nor coven or vamps so they'd kill it.

Why does majority of Towns let Pirate live when they can kill town then?

Because they are retarded.

[Superalex11]

Why would anyone want to keep it around?

Arguably, it would benefit evils just by its chaotic nature - i.e., evils want chaos to confuse townies and relieve suspicion, and this role can provide that.

On the other point, if one were to claim D1 and their moves, they're basically useless as far as any other role is concerned (assuming everyone is keeping up with chat), so nobody would really care about it. You might argue that town would want it gone for the same reason they'd want a known jester/exe gone, but more often than not everyone just ignores them.

[Boredfan1]

Dude, it's not a role that can work with town so it wouldn't be able to get off scott free just for claiming and giving it's will unless the town is absolutely retarded.

[JacksonVirgo]

The role just doesn't work as a Neutral, sorry to say.

[NefariousDjinn]

Unless I'm missing something, doesn't this just come down to surviving 3 nights (maybe 4 due to disruptions)?

The role just doesn't work as a Neutral, sorry to say.

Both of these are valid points. On principal I don't have much issue with the concept, it's nearly identical to my suggestion for fixing the disguiser after all but that role is dependent on being attached to a faction. It doesn't work as a neutral unaligned role like this.

And this is another role that would just function by pushing two buttons x times to win. Which is a bad mechanic for game play. It makes the role unengaging as you're not really doing anything beyond being a mechanism to notch a counter towards victory.

This role is a complete non-starter as it is currently designed. It doesn't control its own fate and just notches it way to victory by completing an arbitrary task each night with no engagement from town or any other role.

/no support.

[Boredfan1]

Unless I'm missing something, doesn't this just come down to surviving 3 nights (maybe 4 due to disruptions)?

The role just doesn't work as a Neutral, sorry to say.

Both of these are valid points.

Except they don't have any weight behind them. To address the first one again, it's a lot like pirate's mechanic yet no is complaining about it or saying "it's just surviving" so it makes no sense to even address it. To address the second "point" it doesn't actually work all that well as mafia, it currently literally does NOTHING for the mafia nor does it fit in with the theme of mafia which is why I said it should be neutral.

On principal I don't have much issue with the concept, it's nearly identical to my suggestion for fixing the disguiser after all but that role is dependent on being attached to a faction. It doesn't work as a neutral unaligned role like this.

And this is another role that would just function by pushing two buttons x times to win. Which is a bad mechanic for game play. It makes the role unengaging as you're not really doing anything beyond being a mechanism to notch a counter towards victory.

This role is a complete non-starter as it is currently designed. It doesn't control its own fate and just notches it way to victory by completing an arbitrary task each night with no engagement from town or any other role.

/no support.

It DOES work as neutral, just read the god damn thing and actually think about it! Disguiser is perfect for causing chaos because it messes with investigative results such as investigator, sheriff and lookout, it wins with everyone but town so neutrals and maf don't really have a reason to lynch it and if they get the help of the disguiser, it acts as a buff for them. And no, it's not a bad mechanic, it does take a bit of thought because the town will be the majority and they have to be careful not to get themselves lynched or killed at night. Not to mention if it decides to side with one faction such as mafia or serial killer then other evil factions WILL want to get it lynched. That makes it a somewhat difficult role but it interacts with all roles and can benefit everyone but town. That's highly engaging. Not to mention no one complains about the pirate which is also a count towards victory. Not to mention it the fact that in my survivor rework people said games can end in four days which this wouldn't usually allow but in those cases, three would give the possibility of this role winning. So ya, it DOES control it's own fate. Please actually stop and think about how this role would work and play instead of looking at it so superficially.

[Brilliand]

it's a lot like pirate's mechanic yet no is complaining about it or saying "it's just surviving" so it makes no sense to even address it.

Frankly, Pirate sucks. But even the Pirate has to survive (on average) 6 nights, not just the 3 that this role needs; and even the Pirate at least causes some deaths, while this role is free to be completely harmless.

[NefariousDjinn]

Unless I'm missing something, doesn't this just come down to surviving 3 nights (maybe 4 due to disruptions)?

The role just doesn't work as a Neutral, sorry to say.

Both of these are valid points.

Except they don't have any weight behind them. To address the first one again, it's a lot like pirate's mechanic yet no is complaining about it or saying "it's just surviving" so it makes no sense to even address it. To address the second "point" it doesn't actually work all that well as mafia, it currently literally does NOTHING for the mafia nor does it fit in with the theme of mafia which is why I said it should be neutral.

You have difficulty taking criticism. But that won't stop me from giving it.

I shall address this in points so you can clearly understand.

1. This is not like the pirate's mechanic because there is no way, beyond external interference that you can fail to complete the assigned task. Which is to say, as long as you survive three nights in the game and you aren't prevented by Jailor or Escort/Consort or Witch then you cannot lose. The pirate has to complete two tasks. Select a target, successfully defeat that target in a rock paper scissors game. If the pirate simply had to select a person to pirate for three nights.. then yes it would be the same mechanic. The pirate doesn't just have to survive for two nights to win. It has to successfully beat two players in a mini-game. This does not. This merely has to not be stopped from completing its ability for x-days to win. Those are fundamentally different mechanics. If you cannot see the clear difference then I don't know how to help you from the off.

2. The fundamental broken nature of the disguiser role doesn't make it better as a neutral role. If it is not fit to the purpose it is intended then simply changing its alignment does not fix it.

3. That entirely depends on what you claim the theme of the mafia is. The role that you describe serves as a dark reflection of a town role (See Consort, Consig, etc.) and serves to mislead and misdirect TI and the Town more directly. (See Mafia Deception) so yes. It clearly fits in thematically. If you're arguing about Mythos. Then yes a disguiser, someone who hides the identity of his fellow mafia and incriminates town in the process is definitely in line with the Mafia thematic.

On principal I don't have much issue with the concept, it's nearly identical to my suggestion for fixing the disguiser after all but that role is dependent on being attached to a faction. It doesn't work as a neutral unaligned role like this.

And this is another role that would just function by pushing two buttons x times to win. Which is a bad mechanic for game play. It makes the role unengaging as you're not really doing anything beyond being a mechanism to notch a counter towards victory.

This role is a complete non-starter as it is currently designed. It doesn't control its own fate and just notches it way to victory by completing an arbitrary task each night with no engagement from town or any other role.

/no support.

It DOES work as neutral, just read the god damn thing and actually think about it! Disguiser is perfect for causing chaos because it messes with investigative results such as investigator, sheriff and lookout, it wins with everyone but town so neutrals and maf don't really have a reason to lynch it and if they get the help of the disguiser, it acts as a buff for them. And no, it's not a bad mechanic, it does take a bit of thought because the town will be the majority and they have to be careful not to get themselves lynched or killed at night. Not to mention if it decides to side with one faction such as mafia or serial killer then other evil factions WILL want to get it lynched. That makes it a somewhat difficult role but it interacts with all roles and can benefit everyone but town. That's highly engaging. Not to mention no one complains about the pirate which is also a count towards victory. Not to mention it the fact that in my survivor rework people said games can end in four days which this wouldn't usually allow but in those cases, three would give the possibility of this role winning. So ya, it DOES control it's own fate. Please actually stop and think about how this role would work and play instead of looking at it so superficially.

4. Whether it works as a neutral role or not is a matter of opinion and there's no point to arguing it. I say it does not, you say it does. But there's really no right answer and thus this argument can not be resolved. I will however say that as it exists, the role lacks a purpose. Sure it can cause "chaos" but to what ends. To what purpose? For what reason? Also you keep saying it can't win with town... but it clearly states in the OP that it can. So might want to fix that.

5. Regardless of what faction it sides with or whether it has to side with a faction at all is irrelevant as all the role has to do is make it past 3 nights to win. Which means the role just exists really as a way to knock up some easy wins. This is what I mean when I say it's a Notch Towards Victory role. It means the role is practically impossible to lose as. NTV roles are inherently boring roles to mean because they aren't dynamic or engaging to play as. You can literally win without any real effort because all you have to do is tick a box towards an even bigger box that says "Win". Now I'm sure plenty of people want an easy nothing role that basically gives them a free win.. but I ain't one of 'em chief.

6. No. This role doesn't control its own fate. It doesn't have to try and win and the only things that can make it lose are things external it to itself that it has no control of. If it's lucky, no one will target it for the first three nights and its an auto win. If it gets targeted by a killing role at night before then that's an auto loss. The best it can do is prevent itself from being hung by having a strong claim space. That is the very definition of lacking control of its own fate.

7. Nothing I have said is superficial and I have already considered what the role would be like playing as. I literally pitched the idea myself as a rework of the current disguiser. More then that, this is exactly the same mechanic you pitched for the survivor rework and it was a bad idea then and its still a bad idea now. But at least in this role it actually has a function beyond just being a pointless task to complete each night... a small improvement.

8. If you wanted to make this role a viable concept as a neutral you would need to..

Make the win condition dependent on Successful Disguising: Meaning that the target you disguised would need to be killed at night or hung the next morning.-

This would move the role from being just a NTV role to an actual role with an objective that would require some work on the players role to either push the targets they disguised or figure out who the killing roles are likely to target at night to win.

OR

Make the win condition that town has to lose for the DIsguiser to win in the same way that the witch currently designed

Either of these changes would make the role viable as a neutral role because it would give it an independent goal to work towards achieving rather then just an arbitrary task that it has to notch up.

I recognize you won't take any of this criticism as valid because of our previous debates.. but if you wish to debate. then argue the points and make an actual cogent counter argument. Simply saying "No that isn't true" is not a valid form of counterpoint.

[NefariousDjinn]

it's a lot like pirate's mechanic yet no is complaining about it or saying "it's just surviving" so it makes no sense to even address it.

Frankly, Pirate sucks. But even the Pirate has to survive (on average) 6 nights, not just the 3 that this role needs; and even the Pirate at least causes some deaths, while this role is free to be completely harmless.

It's not even that the role can win in 3 nights. It's that the role essentially can't lose if it makes it to 3 nights.

The fact that the role also doesn't have to accomplish anything in those 3 night cycles is a secondary but also very valid point.

[Boredfan1]

it's a lot like pirate's mechanic yet no is complaining about it or saying "it's just surviving" so it makes no sense to even address it.

Frankly, Pirate sucks. But even the Pirate has to survive (on average) 6 nights, not just the 3 that this role needs; and even the Pirate at least causes some deaths, while this role is free to be completely harmless.

It is NOT completely harmless. Reread the god damn opening post! It messes with results which WILL cause townies to get shot by vig, executed by jailor or hung by the town! That's nowhere near harmless!!!!! And you can't just disguise for three nights in a row every single game and win, that isn't even REMOTELY possible, there will be times when that is true HOWEVER, many times people die night one or two or three. If you die night three and use your last needed disguise, then you wouldn't win.

[Boredfan1]

it's a lot like pirate's mechanic yet no is complaining about it or saying "it's just surviving" so it makes no sense to even address it.

Frankly, Pirate sucks. But even the Pirate has to survive (on average) 6 nights, not just the 3 that this role needs; and even the Pirate at least causes some deaths, while this role is free to be completely harmless.

It's not even that the role can win in 3 nights. It's that the role essentially can't lose if it makes it to 3 nights.

The fact that the role also doesn't have to accomplish anything in those 3 night cycles is a secondary but also very valid point.

No. Let me spell out a real possibility for you.

N1: Jailed, no mafia deaths.
D2: Called out but no one was roleblocked and no one was healed,the town hangs you.

OR

N1: Jailed
N2: Roleblocked, no maf deaths
N3: Roleblocked, no maf deaths
D4: Hung

And what the hell are you talking about not having to accomplish anything? They need to disguise someone! It's not like they do nothing at night for three nights and automatically win! LEARN TO READ!!!!

[JacksonVirgo]

it's a lot like pirate's mechanic yet no is complaining about it or saying "it's just surviving" so it makes no sense to even address it.

Frankly, Pirate sucks. But even the Pirate has to survive (on average) 6 nights, not just the 3 that this role needs; and even the Pirate at least causes some deaths, while this role is free to be completely harmless.

It's not even that the role can win in 3 nights. It's that the role essentially can't lose if it makes it to 3 nights.

The fact that the role also doesn't have to accomplish anything in those 3 night cycles is a secondary but also very valid point.

No. Let me spell out a real possibility for you.

N1: Jailed, no mafia deaths.
D2: Called out but no one was roleblocked and no one was healed,the town hangs you.

OR

N1: Jailed
N2: Roleblocked, no maf deaths
N3: Roleblocked, no maf deaths
D4: Hung

And what the hell are you talking about not having to accomplish anything? They need to disguise someone! It's not like they do nothing at night for three nights and automatically win! LEARN TO READ!!!!

Yeah because that happens every single game.

[jiar37]

While this role is not completely harmless, it is basically as harmless as a transporter is.

As Jackson said just before me, the dying n1-3 three part is true for every single other role in the game, which means this role has nothing special stopping it from winning. Both of the "real possibilities" could happen to almost any role.

And like so many others have said,
This role DOES NOT ACTUALLY NEED TO ACCOMPLISH ANYTHING.

It has the sole purpose of disguising others, and does not have to do any specific task except visiting them for 3 days. It doesn't need to live after it completes 3 disguises, doesn't need to hang anyone to win, and doesn't really need to provide any input except clicking it's role options at night and not getting hung. Staying alive for 3 nights in most games is really easy, as most of the time there has only been 3-4 deaths when n3 hits (maf hitting once a day / ww killing n2).


Also, I just wanted to point out that this role is very similar to a neutral version of the transporter, which is town and helps town more than hinders.


;P

[Boredfan1]

1: I don't have a problem taking criticism, I have a problem with people who CLEARLY don't even understand the thing they are giving criticism of giving criticism and targeting things that aren't even true or a problem. I keep addressing EVERY point made but you don't seem to get why you are wrong. EVERYTHING you guys criticize is a misconception of the role.

2: MOST if not all roles can only fail with external interference or failing to do one's role for whatever other reason like lag or forgot. This is a HORRIBLE argument.

3: This role has absolutely NO defense, that means the vigilante, mafia, serial killer, werewolf, coven and pirate can kill it. Not to mention the damn arsonist or pestilence.

4: This role requires you to survive to use your ability THREE times and with escort, consort, jailor and avoiding getting hung, that isn't a simple task. And the mechanics are pretty damn similar, the only difference is there is no RNG bullshit that prevents you from completing your night activity.

5: The disguiser is broken how it is NOW, this is a COMPLETELY DIFFERENT disguiser MADE to be neutral! You are talking about the disguiser we have now! THAT one is not fit for the game regardless of it's alignment, THIS role WORKS for neutral and you have yet to give any good arguments to say otherwise.

6: The whole idea of being a dark reflection of a town role doesn't work with the disguiser because it has NO town counterpart, unlike EVERY OTHER mafia role. It's just lumped in there with doctor and disguiser when it is so different from either of those. And the role as it is now doesn't even hide the identity of a fellow mafia, it's all about itself which is another reason why it doesn't work as part of the mafia theme.

7: The role exists to cause chaos, to make it so town can't just get an easy win all the time! It throws town into dissarray by disrupting their investigative results. I have said this multiple times now, how the hell do you not understand that after looking at it?!

8: Yes, I said that it can't win with town, I got so caught up in arguing everything I forgot that detail.

9: Read above and my previous post because no way is it as simple as it just needs to survive three nights.

10: The fact that it has to fight to get the three disguises is IS controlling it's own fate and having to try to win. There is no ifs or buts about this, it is simple a fact. And no, having a strong claim space to get your win is the very DEFINITION of controlling your own destiny. Mafia in mafia mode usually don't becaue there's no claim space.

11: It's not what you said is superficial, it's that you aren't properly reading the damn role and comprehending what the hell it's about! It's a pretty god damn simple role to understand. THAT'S why I said you have a superficial understanding of the role. And NO, it is NOT the same as the mechanic for the survivor role, that is a LOT different considering it has to vest to survive and CAN vest. How can you even comment on a thread without understanding something so damn basic?!

12: It is already viable!!!! If the target needs to be killed at night or hung, then it's viability goes down the drain because that's extremely hard to predict! Not to mention it beats the exact purpose of this role! And would require you to ally with someone to win when you have no idea who is what most of the time and you can die easily at night. If the target is jailed however, I do agree they shouldn't count.

13: Making it so the town has to lose wouldn't work because it already hardly works for the witch. It is on it's own, it can get killed and then it just loses, like witch does and witch loses A LOT.

14: I am arguing EVERY god damn point WITH ACTUAL counter arguments! How about you actually TRY to think about it for more than a second than using a superificial look at what I am saying!

[Boredfan1]

it's a lot like pirate's mechanic yet no is complaining about it or saying "it's just surviving" so it makes no sense to even address it.

Frankly, Pirate sucks. But even the Pirate has to survive (on average) 6 nights, not just the 3 that this role needs; and even the Pirate at least causes some deaths, while this role is free to be completely harmless.

It's not even that the role can win in 3 nights. It's that the role essentially can't lose if it makes it to 3 nights.

The fact that the role also doesn't have to accomplish anything in those 3 night cycles is a secondary but also very valid point.

No. Let me spell out a real possibility for you.

N1: Jailed, no mafia deaths.
D2: Called out but no one was roleblocked and no one was healed,the town hangs you.

OR

N1: Jailed
N2: Roleblocked, no maf deaths
N3: Roleblocked, no maf deaths
D4: Hung

And what the hell are you talking about not having to accomplish anything? They need to disguise someone! It's not like they do nothing at night for three nights and automatically win! LEARN TO READ!!!!

Yeah because that happens every single game.

Stuff like that is very common.........

While this role is not completely harmless, it is basically as harmless as a transporter is.

As Jackson said just before me, the dying n1-3 three part is true for every single other role in the game, which means this role has nothing special stopping it from winning. Both of the "real possibilities" could happen to almost any role.

And like so many others have said,
This role DOES NOT ACTUALLY NEED TO ACCOMPLISH ANYTHING.

It has the sole purpose of disguising others, and does not have to do any specific task except visiting them for 3 days. It doesn't need to live after it completes 3 disguises, doesn't need to hang anyone to win, and doesn't really need to provide any input except clicking it's role options at night and not getting hung. Staying alive for 3 nights in most games is really easy, as most of the time there has only been 3-4 deaths when n3 hits (maf hitting once a day / ww killing n2).


Also, I just wanted to point out that this role is very similar to a neutral version of the transporter, which is town and helps town more than hinders.


;P

The transporter is a pretty powerful role, one capable of killing friends and foes alike, that's not close to harmless. And also, it has no defense, no inherit friends to protect it and town will want it dead. And how does it not need to accomplish anything when it has a fucking goal?! Live ONE night is not needing to accomplish anything, having no ability or attributes and just winning with your faction or whoever is not needing to accomplish anything. If it needed to live after the three days, it would almost never win, just like witch.

And ya, it is like a neutral transporter, that's not really a bad thing in my opinion.

[JacksonVirgo]

The chances of this specific role being jailed N1 is 1/14.
The chance that you're jailed and roleblocked when the mafia doesn't kill is even lower, by a massive margin.

Not exactly sure what point you're trying to make there.

[Brilliand]

1: I don't have a problem taking criticism, I have a problem with people who CLEARLY don't even understand the thing they are giving criticism of giving criticism and targeting things that aren't even true or a problem. I keep addressing EVERY point made but you don't seem to get why you are wrong. EVERYTHING you guys criticize is a misconception of the role.

This is bizarre. You persistently claim that everyone else is misunderstanding what you wrote, but I can see for myself that they are definitely not misunderstanding (to any significant degree).

It may be that you are writing poorly, but if so, you need to fix that on your end.

7: The role exists to cause chaos, to make it so town can't just get an easy win all the time! It throws town into dissarray by disrupting their investigative results. I have said this multiple times now, how the hell do you not understand that after looking at it?!

It doesn't have to throw Town into disarray. It can announce each morning exactly what it did the previous night, clearing up any confusion; or only disguise people the Town has no interest in checking, such as the Jailor. There is nothing in its goal or abilities that says it isn't allowed to be harmless.

[Boredfan1]

Then you can't read, Brilland. Everything everyone has said is based on misconceptions. You yourself clearly don't actually understand this role idea any better than anyone else besides me or you'd not get everything about it wrong. Also, there is no reason for it to work with town, it doesn't have to. So your idea of them clearing up confusion would be done by idiots. And anyone who'd believe such claims are idiots. I'm done with all of you, you aren't even trying, you are just wasting my time.

[JacksonVirgo]

Then you can't read, Brilland. Everything everyone has said is based on misconceptions. You yourself clearly don't actually understand this role idea any better than anyone else besides me or you'd not get everything about it wrong. Also, there is no reason for it to work with town, it doesn't have to. So your idea of them clearing up confusion would be done by idiots. And anyone who'd believe such claims are idiots. I'm done with all of you, you aren't even trying, you are just wasting my time.

Pirate has no reason to work with town, but does
Jester has no reason to work with anybody, but does

What's your point?