Jester Concept Idea

Suggest new roles or changes to current roles for the game here.

Re: Jester Concept Idea

Postby EgyptFalcon » Wed Dec 11, 2019 4:51 pm

NefariousDjinn wrote:
EgyptFalcon wrote:
Brilliand wrote:This is exactly like old Disguiser, in the relevant aspect: It's a mechanic that allows two players to swap names. I don't see any way around that fact.

Now, this role and the old Disguiser could both be OK, provided the trial system is upgraded to something that can cope with a name-swapping mechanic. However, that would require a rework of the in-game reporting mechanism, to allow players to indicate exactly what text they're reporting the player for; if that feature isn't added to the in-game reporting mechanism, then the trial system will be flooded with reports that are simply on the wrong person (and the trial system alone will have difficulty compensating for that).

Now, I actually think that letting people report a specific chat message instead of reporting a person by name is a great idea, but it's a tough sell because it's extra development work for the devs.


Do you report jesters for gamethrowing because they spread false info? No? So why would you report a jester for gamethrowing if someone else was doing the talking? Everyone knows when a jester dies and when someone could be reincarnated. Everyone knows who the real jester is (in case hate speech). There is no problem here.


The point is if the Jester reincarnates into a player and starts spamming or posting hateful messages then that player gets reported.. now say that the player gets lynched after the reports are filed to reveal that they were originally the jester... those reports against that player don't magically go away... Or for the case of multiple jesters there would be no in game way to determine which of the jesters possessed which player and posted those messages.

Essentially unless the role is made unique then this runs in to a lot of issues. The issues aren't insurmountable but they exist. To solve this issue you would need a constant ID log in game of each player name to the user login name throughout so that when a report is filed against an ingame name even if it is "Possessed" it would be correctly identified by the system to the User ID that was posting under the ingame name. You would need the ingame report system to automatically post these details to the review when a report is filed against an ingame name.

Add that to the fact that this change doesn't benefit the role of jester and actually makes the role more frustrating because even if you successfully get lynched you can still lose the game because town wins... and I think this disqualifies this for me. It's a bunch of additional work to implement for making a role more likely to lose.


Fair enough, I was only considering the case where there's only one jester. I totally agree that multiple jesters would cause a headache for the trial system.
Check out my best role ideas:
Doomsayer (TK)
Kleptomaniac (NE)
Riddler (MK)
User avatar
EgyptFalcon
Transporter
Transporter
 
Posts: 119
Joined: Fri Sep 14, 2018 8:00 pm

Re: Jester Concept Idea

Postby JacksonVirgo » Wed Dec 11, 2019 6:19 pm

NefariousDjinn wrote:
EgyptFalcon wrote:
Brilliand wrote:This is exactly like old Disguiser, in the relevant aspect: It's a mechanic that allows two players to swap names. I don't see any way around that fact.

Now, this role and the old Disguiser could both be OK, provided the trial system is upgraded to something that can cope with a name-swapping mechanic. However, that would require a rework of the in-game reporting mechanism, to allow players to indicate exactly what text they're reporting the player for; if that feature isn't added to the in-game reporting mechanism, then the trial system will be flooded with reports that are simply on the wrong person (and the trial system alone will have difficulty compensating for that).

Now, I actually think that letting people report a specific chat message instead of reporting a person by name is a great idea, but it's a tough sell because it's extra development work for the devs.


Do you report jesters for gamethrowing because they spread false info? No? So why would you report a jester for gamethrowing if someone else was doing the talking? Everyone knows when a jester dies and when someone could be reincarnated. Everyone knows who the real jester is (in case hate speech). There is no problem here.


The point is if the Jester reincarnates into a player and starts spamming or posting hateful messages then that player gets reported.. now say that the player gets lynched after the reports are filed to reveal that they were originally the jester... those reports against that player don't magically go away... Or for the case of multiple jesters there would be no in game way to determine which of the jesters possessed which player and posted those messages.

Essentially unless the role is made unique then this runs in to a lot of issues. The issues aren't insurmountable but they exist. To solve this issue you would need a constant ID log in game of each player name to the user login name throughout so that when a report is filed against an ingame name even if it is "Possessed" it would be correctly identified by the system to the User ID that was posting under the ingame name. You would need the ingame report system to automatically post these details to the review when a report is filed against an ingame name.

Add that to the fact that this change doesn't benefit the role of jester and actually makes the role more frustrating because even if you successfully get lynched you can still lose the game because town wins... and I think this disqualifies this for me. It's a bunch of additional work to implement for making a role more likely to lose.

Even if the trial system is changed, multiple Jester's would be insane to deal with as Town and thus I think it's safer just to make the role unique. Exectutioner would need a change too.

And the current Jester can side with Town, as a Neutral Evil and that's broken so I changed it to work around winning with any non-town

On-site Record: 5-0-3
Latest Town Game: 20C - Citizen - Win
Latest Scum Game: 19F - Consort - Loss
Last updated 23.02.20 AEST
User avatar
JacksonVirgo
Retributionist
Retributionist
 
Posts: 392
Joined: Mon Jul 13, 2015 12:00 am
Location: Australia (AEST)

Re: Jester Concept Idea

Postby Kirize12 » Wed Dec 11, 2019 11:27 pm

If that's your issue, why not just make Jester a Neutral Benign?
Factional balance - understanding that whisper games are bad because they cause Town to win a disproportionate amount

Strategical balance - understanding that whisper games are bad because there's no reason to use any other strategy

Structural balance - understanding that disabling the Mayor's whispers, despite it fixing whisper games, means that a player can't use a core mechanic of the game and is still bad

This matters - educate yourself.
User avatar
Kirize12
Sponsor
Sponsor
 
Posts: 8814
Joined: Sun Oct 19, 2014 11:50 am
Location: Tony Stark in Ranked

Re: Jester Concept Idea

Postby JacksonVirgo » Wed Dec 11, 2019 11:35 pm

Kirize12 wrote:If that's your issue, why not just make Jester a Neutral Benign?

Because if we move Executioner and Jester to NB, there's just witch in the NE slot. No thanks

On-site Record: 5-0-3
Latest Town Game: 20C - Citizen - Win
Latest Scum Game: 19F - Consort - Loss
Last updated 23.02.20 AEST
User avatar
JacksonVirgo
Retributionist
Retributionist
 
Posts: 392
Joined: Mon Jul 13, 2015 12:00 am
Location: Australia (AEST)

Re: Jester Concept Idea

Postby Royee » Wed Dec 11, 2019 11:38 pm

JacksonVirgo wrote:
Kirize12 wrote:If that's your issue, why not just make Jester a Neutral Benign?

Because if we move Executioner and Jester to NB, there's just witch in the NE slot. No thanks

Who said we need to move Exe to NB?
Exe is enough to be NE. Without it, Maf's winrate will drop.
User avatar
Royee
Spy
Spy
 
Posts: 127
Joined: Wed Sep 30, 2015 1:11 pm
Location: UTC +3

Re: Jester Concept Idea

Postby JacksonVirgo » Wed Dec 11, 2019 11:40 pm

Royee wrote:
JacksonVirgo wrote:
Kirize12 wrote:If that's your issue, why not just make Jester a Neutral Benign?

Because if we move Executioner and Jester to NB, there's just witch in the NE slot. No thanks

Who said we need to move Exe to NB?
Exe is enough to be NE. Without it, Maf's winrate will drop.

Except that Exectuioner can side with Town after they get their win, that isn't NE.

On-site Record: 5-0-3
Latest Town Game: 20C - Citizen - Win
Latest Scum Game: 19F - Consort - Loss
Last updated 23.02.20 AEST
User avatar
JacksonVirgo
Retributionist
Retributionist
 
Posts: 392
Joined: Mon Jul 13, 2015 12:00 am
Location: Australia (AEST)

Re: Jester Concept Idea

Postby Royee » Wed Dec 11, 2019 11:44 pm

JacksonVirgo wrote:
Royee wrote:
JacksonVirgo wrote:
Kirize12 wrote:If that's your issue, why not just make Jester a Neutral Benign?

Because if we move Executioner and Jester to NB, there's just witch in the NE slot. No thanks

Who said we need to move Exe to NB?
Exe is enough to be NE. Without it, Maf's winrate will drop.

Except that Exectuioner can side with Town after they get their win, that isn't NE.

That's maf's problem that they managed to lynch the exe's target early. You can say the same thing on NK that hates mafia.
Changing exe's win condition can solve this but it's rare to see that.
User avatar
Royee
Spy
Spy
 
Posts: 127
Joined: Wed Sep 30, 2015 1:11 pm
Location: UTC +3

Re: Jester Concept Idea

Postby JacksonVirgo » Wed Dec 11, 2019 11:48 pm

Royee wrote:
JacksonVirgo wrote:
Royee wrote:
JacksonVirgo wrote:
Kirize12 wrote:If that's your issue, why not just make Jester a Neutral Benign?

Because if we move Executioner and Jester to NB, there's just witch in the NE slot. No thanks

Who said we need to move Exe to NB?
Exe is enough to be NE. Without it, Maf's winrate will drop.

Except that Exectuioner can side with Town after they get their win, that isn't NE.

That's maf's problem that they managed to lynch the exe's target early. You can say the same thing on NK that hates mafia.
Changing exe's win condition can solve this but it's rare to see that.

NK is against mafia, not sure what you mean by that. If Executioner's win-con is changed, it's essentially a "survive to see town lose" role with no real abilities/goal since surviving to see town lose will have your Town target lynched or you're converted the Jester. It's not an NE role in essence. And no it isn't the mafia's problem considering the Town have majority early not mafia...

On-site Record: 5-0-3
Latest Town Game: 20C - Citizen - Win
Latest Scum Game: 19F - Consort - Loss
Last updated 23.02.20 AEST
User avatar
JacksonVirgo
Retributionist
Retributionist
 
Posts: 392
Joined: Mon Jul 13, 2015 12:00 am
Location: Australia (AEST)

Re: Jester Concept Idea

Postby Brilliand » Thu Dec 12, 2019 12:04 am

JacksonVirgo wrote:NK is against mafia, not sure what you mean by that. If Executioner's win-con is changed, it's essentially a "survive to see town lose" role with no real abilities/goal since surviving to see town lose will have your Town target lynched or you're converted the Jester. It's not an NE role in essence. And no it isn't the mafia's problem considering the Town have majority early not mafia...


By analogy to your Jester idea, the Exe could be converted to get anti-town powers from lynching his target, instead of winning by lynching his target.

For example: The Executioner has a guaranteed Town player selected as his "target". If that player is lynched, the Executioner gets to pick what role he shows up as (presumably he will usually pick a Mafia role). Whenever the Executioner's target dies, for any reason, the Executioner has another random townie selected as his target. The Executioner's goal is simply "live to see the town lose the game".
My best role ideas:
Conqueror
Apocalypse Survivor
Brilliand
Veteran
Veteran
 
Posts: 432
Joined: Sat Nov 29, 2014 8:34 pm

Re: Jester Concept Idea

Postby Royee » Thu Dec 12, 2019 12:43 am

JacksonVirgo wrote:
Royee wrote:
JacksonVirgo wrote:
Royee wrote:
JacksonVirgo wrote:
Kirize12 wrote:If that's your issue, why not just make Jester a Neutral Benign?

Because if we move Executioner and Jester to NB, there's just witch in the NE slot. No thanks

Who said we need to move Exe to NB?
Exe is enough to be NE. Without it, Maf's winrate will drop.

Except that Exectuioner can side with Town after they get their win, that isn't NE.

That's maf's problem that they managed to lynch the exe's target early. You can say the same thing on NK that hates mafia.
Changing exe's win condition can solve this but it's rare to see that.

NK is against mafia, not sure what you mean by that. If Executioner's win-con is changed, it's essentially a "survive to see town lose" role with no real abilities/goal since surviving to see town lose will have your Town target lynched or you're converted the Jester. It's not an NE role in essence. And no it isn't the mafia's problem considering the Town have majority early not mafia...

You forget here something.
A good mafia can control the votes. Exe is enough anti town role which messes with the votes and claims.
I was talking about nk who helps town.
User avatar
Royee
Spy
Spy
 
Posts: 127
Joined: Wed Sep 30, 2015 1:11 pm
Location: UTC +3

Re: Jester Concept Idea

Postby JacksonVirgo » Thu Dec 12, 2019 12:49 am

Brilliand wrote:
JacksonVirgo wrote:NK is against mafia, not sure what you mean by that. If Executioner's win-con is changed, it's essentially a "survive to see town lose" role with no real abilities/goal since surviving to see town lose will have your Town target lynched or you're converted the Jester. It's not an NE role in essence. And no it isn't the mafia's problem considering the Town have majority early not mafia...


By analogy to your Jester idea, the Exe could be converted to get anti-town powers from lynching his target, instead of winning by lynching his target.

For example: The Executioner has a guaranteed Town player selected as his "target". If that player is lynched, the Executioner gets to pick what role he shows up as (presumably he will usually pick a Mafia role). Whenever the Executioner's target dies, for any reason, the Executioner has another random townie selected as his target. The Executioner's goal is simply "live to see the town lose the game".

So you're thinking the Executioner can change what role their target will show as upon being lynched? That's actually a neat idea as long as you don't get another target after lynching them otherwise that'd be too screwy with Town I feel

Royee wrote:
JacksonVirgo wrote:
Royee wrote:
JacksonVirgo wrote:
Royee wrote:
JacksonVirgo wrote:
Kirize12 wrote:If that's your issue, why not just make Jester a Neutral Benign?

Because if we move Executioner and Jester to NB, there's just witch in the NE slot. No thanks

Who said we need to move Exe to NB?
Exe is enough to be NE. Without it, Maf's winrate will drop.

Except that Exectuioner can side with Town after they get their win, that isn't NE.

That's maf's problem that they managed to lynch the exe's target early. You can say the same thing on NK that hates mafia.
Changing exe's win condition can solve this but it's rare to see that.

NK is against mafia, not sure what you mean by that. If Executioner's win-con is changed, it's essentially a "survive to see town lose" role with no real abilities/goal since surviving to see town lose will have your Town target lynched or you're converted the Jester. It's not an NE role in essence. And no it isn't the mafia's problem considering the Town have majority early not mafia...

You forget here something.
A good mafia can control the votes. Exe is enough anti town role which messes with the votes and claims.
I was talking about nk who helps town.


Sure but they're still town-sided as hell, also NK helping town is literally stupid considering their win-con. If mafia help out the Executioner, they can completely backstab mafia, whereas with Witch they cannot do that if they want to win.

On-site Record: 5-0-3
Latest Town Game: 20C - Citizen - Win
Latest Scum Game: 19F - Consort - Loss
Last updated 23.02.20 AEST
User avatar
JacksonVirgo
Retributionist
Retributionist
 
Posts: 392
Joined: Mon Jul 13, 2015 12:00 am
Location: Australia (AEST)

Re: Jester Concept Idea

Postby Kirize12 » Thu Dec 12, 2019 6:44 pm

JacksonVirgo wrote:
Kirize12 wrote:If that's your issue, why not just make Jester a Neutral Benign?

Because if we move Executioner and Jester to NB, there's just witch in the NE slot. No thanks

Then we should just add more anti town evils.
Factional balance - understanding that whisper games are bad because they cause Town to win a disproportionate amount

Strategical balance - understanding that whisper games are bad because there's no reason to use any other strategy

Structural balance - understanding that disabling the Mayor's whispers, despite it fixing whisper games, means that a player can't use a core mechanic of the game and is still bad

This matters - educate yourself.
User avatar
Kirize12
Sponsor
Sponsor
 
Posts: 8814
Joined: Sun Oct 19, 2014 11:50 am
Location: Tony Stark in Ranked

Previous

Return to Role Ideas

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 4 guests