Jester Concept Idea

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Jester Concept Idea

Postby JacksonVirgo » Fri Nov 29, 2019 10:20 pm

I've thought of a concept to rework Jester into but I am not quite sure if it's any good.

The Jester works the exact same as it does now but with one major change. Upon getting lynched, the Jester can kill a guiltier or abstainer an take over their body and they want to get lynched again using that body. The Jester can only get lynched twice like this, and once that is up they have to try and survive because if they die they will lose. The Jester upon taking over a body will learn their role and will and if they take over a Coven or Mafia member the member will be removed from the mafia chat and the will know who the Jester is.

When the jester gets lynched the first time, the body will show "Jester" but after taking over a body it shows the original role and will but it has the "Jester has been lynched" message.

The goal is the witch win-con.

Not expecting this to be accepted very well but it was just an idea that popped into my head

Thanks to EgyptFalcon for the formatted role-card.

Role Name:
Jester

Role Alignment:
Neutral (Evil)

Abilities:
- None

Attributes:
- If you are lynched during the day, you may choose that night to occupy the body of any player that guiltied or abstained on you
- The player you choose will be sent to the graveyard (and talk as you) and their/your role is converted to Jester

Notifications:
- Notification for lynching the jester removed
- You feel foolish for lynching the jester! You have become their puppet!

Goal:
Ensure town loses the game without dying at night.

Win Conditions:
Wins with Survivors
Wins with Mafia
Wins with Coven
Wins with Serial Killers
Wins with Arsonists
Wins with Werewolves
Wins with Vampires

Special Attributes:
None

Investigator Results:
Sheriff - Your target is not suspicious.
Investigator - Your target could be a Framer, Vampire, or Jester.
Consigliere - Your target wants to be lynched. They must be a Jester.

Additional Information:
If you ever die at night, you instantly lose. Thus choosing to occupy a new player is a risk/reward -- you could die at night in the new life, but you also might be able to wreak more havoc on town if you do.
Last edited by JacksonVirgo on Sat Dec 07, 2019 10:04 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Jester Concept Idea

Postby Boredfan1 » Fri Nov 29, 2019 11:53 pm

No, just no. That would take two people out of the game and can easily screw over the mafia or coven.
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Re: Jester Concept Idea

Postby EgyptFalcon » Sat Nov 30, 2019 2:37 pm

JacksonVirgo wrote:I've thought of a concept to rework Jester into but I am not quite sure if it's any good.

The Jester works the exact same as it does now but with one major change. Upon getting lynched, the Jester can kill a guiltier or abstainer an take over their body and they want to get lynched again using that body. The Jester can only get lynched twice like this, and once that is up they have to try and survive because if they die they will lose. The Jester upon taking over a body will learn their role and will and if they take over a Coven or Mafia member the member will be removed from the mafia chat and the will know who the Jester is.

When the jester gets lynched the first time, the body will show "Jester" but after taking over a body it shows the original role and will but it has the "Jester has been lynched" message.

The goal is the witch win-con.

Not expecting this to be accepted very well but it was just an idea that popped into my head



Hahahahaha I like this a lot because it makes Jester an ever looming threat. How about you remove the ability to kill over guilt and JUST take over someone else as jester?
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Re: Jester Concept Idea

Postby JacksonVirgo » Sat Nov 30, 2019 3:18 pm

EgyptFalcon wrote:Hahahahaha I like this a lot because it makes Jester an ever looming threat. How about you remove the ability to kill over guilt and JUST take over someone else as jester?


Glad you liked it :D
And I don't see the difference since it takes over anyway but not killing but taking over sounds simpler so yeah that works lol

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Re: Jester Concept Idea

Postby EgyptFalcon » Sat Nov 30, 2019 10:12 pm

Lmk if you like the changes:

Role Name:
Jester

Role Alignment:
Neutral (Evil)

Abilities:
- None

Attributes:
- If you are lynched during the day, you may choose that night to occupy the body of any player that guiltied or abstained on you
- The player you choose will be sent to the graveyard (and talk as you) and their/your role is converted to Jester

Notifications:
- Notification for lynching the jester removed
- You feel foolish for lynching the jester! You have become their puppet!

Goal:
Ensure town loses the game without dying at night.

Win Conditions:
Wins with Survivors
Wins with Mafia
Wins with Coven
Wins with Serial Killers
Wins with Arsonists
Wins with Werewolves
Wins with Vampires

Special Attributes:
None

Investigator Results:
Sheriff - Your target is not suspicious.
Investigator - Your target could be a Framer, Vampire, or Jester.
Consigliere - Your target wants to be lynched. They must be a Jester.

Additional Information:
If you ever die at night, you instantly lose. Thus choosing to occupy a new player is a risk/reward -- you could die at night in the new life, but you also might be able to wreak more havoc on town if you do.
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Re: Jester Concept Idea

Postby JacksonVirgo » Sun Dec 01, 2019 12:25 am

EgyptFalcon wrote: Spoiler: Lmk if you like the changes:

Role Name:
Jester

Role Alignment:
Neutral (Evil)

Abilities:
- None

Attributes:
- If you are lynched during the day, you may choose that night to occupy the body of any player that guiltied or abstained on you
- The player you choose will be sent to the graveyard (and talk as you) and their/your role is converted to Jester

Notifications:
- Notification for lynching the jester removed
- You feel foolish for lynching the jester! You have become their puppet!

Goal:
Ensure town loses the game without dying at night.

Win Conditions:
Wins with Survivors
Wins with Mafia
Wins with Coven
Wins with Serial Killers
Wins with Arsonists
Wins with Werewolves
Wins with Vampires

Special Attributes:
None

Investigator Results:
Sheriff - Your target is not suspicious.
Investigator - Your target could be a Framer, Vampire, or Jester.
Consigliere - Your target wants to be lynched. They must be a Jester.

Additional Information:
If you ever die at night, you instantly lose. Thus choosing to occupy a new player is a risk/reward -- you could die at night in the new life, but you also might be able to wreak more havoc on town if you do.

I do like the changes :D
Would it be okay to add this formatted version to the OP?

Also, if there's a medium the Jester is pretty much outted though. Hmmm

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Re: Jester Concept Idea

Postby EgyptFalcon » Sun Dec 01, 2019 2:38 pm

JacksonVirgo wrote:I do like the changes :D
Would it be okay to add this formatted version to the OP?

Also, if there's a medium the Jester is pretty much outted though. Hmmm


Yeah, be my guest.

Ohohoho but actually no! The jester *chooses* to reincarnate, but might not, and can tell the medium they did!
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Re: Jester Concept Idea

Postby JacksonVirgo » Sun Dec 01, 2019 2:55 pm

EgyptFalcon wrote:
JacksonVirgo wrote:I do like the changes :D
Would it be okay to add this formatted version to the OP?

Also, if there's a medium the Jester is pretty much outted though. Hmmm


Yeah, be my guest.

Ohohoho but actually no! The jester *chooses* to reincarnate, but might not, and can tell the medium they did!

Oh, that's true!

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Re: Jester Concept Idea

Postby Brilliand » Fri Dec 06, 2019 6:29 pm

This idea is very appealing, but it has the same problem as the old Disguiser, namely that after the name swap one player can say ban-worthy things using the other player's name. Has the trial system been improved to handle that situation?

That said, the nerfed version where the Jester kills a player and comes back under his own name is probably strong enough, since if he kills the last Town Killing the Town is up a creek without a paddle. (Even if they know exactly who the Jester is, without a Jailor or Vigilante they can't realistically eliminate him.)
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Re: Jester Concept Idea

Postby EgyptFalcon » Sat Dec 07, 2019 9:53 am

Brilliand wrote:This idea is very appealing, but it has the same problem as the old Disguiser, namely that after the name swap one player can say ban-worthy things using the other player's name. Has the trial system been improved to handle that situation?

That said, the nerfed version where the Jester kills a player and comes back under his own name is probably strong enough, since if he kills the last Town Killing the Town is up a creek without a paddle. (Even if they know exactly who the Jester is, without a Jailor or Vigilante they can't realistically eliminate him.)


Well if they get lynched and show up as jester it's pretty clear that it isn't the player talking. And you could just add a thing at the role list to say who got converted. Unlike disguiser, all town knows when there's a possibility that one of them has become someone else.

That being said, capping it at one or two reincarnations would be wise. I also think there should be more TK rolled in games and it's sad how 4TS games are like 10x more likely than 4TK games.
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Re: Jester Concept Idea

Postby JacksonVirgo » Sat Dec 07, 2019 10:15 am

EgyptFalcon wrote:
Brilliand wrote:This idea is very appealing, but it has the same problem as the old Disguiser, namely that after the name swap one player can say ban-worthy things using the other player's name. Has the trial system been improved to handle that situation?

That said, the nerfed version where the Jester kills a player and comes back under his own name is probably strong enough, since if he kills the last Town Killing the Town is up a creek without a paddle. (Even if they know exactly who the Jester is, without a Jailor or Vigilante they can't realistically eliminate him.)


Well if they get lynched and show up as jester it's pretty clear that it isn't the player talking. And you could just add a thing at the role list to say who got converted. Unlike disguiser, all town knows when there's a possibility that one of them has become someone else.

That being said, capping it at one or two reincarnations would be wise. I also think there should be more TK rolled in games and it's sad how 4TS games are like 10x more likely than 4TK games.


This is regarding both Brilliand's and your comments. The Trial System can be tweaked to show which names at which days are played by a specific player so that would fix that issue. I was thinking that Jester could do a body-swap as many times as they are lynched but without a Jailor/Vigilante there would be no way of getting rid of the NE role and thus it'd be too powerful so I put a limit on it to two swaps, that way it can be just as useful as Witch can be because it wants to attract the lynch away from the Mafia.

There should be more TK roles in game if there's a role change like this, but in a balanced way so it isn't completely overpowered. A new TK may be nice as well

Though I have a few issues with the role, like I feel if the final body-swap gets lynched. Just to balance the role out, if the Jester gets killed at night AFTER they get lynched at least once or they get lynched for the third time, they will stay dead but they still win as long as the Town loses.

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Re: Jester Concept Idea

Postby Brilliand » Sat Dec 07, 2019 2:01 pm

JacksonVirgo wrote:I was thinking that Jester could do a body-swap as many times as they are lynched but without a Jailor/Vigilante there would be no way of getting rid of the NE role and thus it'd be too powerful so I put a limit on it to two swaps, that way it can be just as useful as Witch can be because it wants to attract the lynch away from the Mafia.


Even with a limit of 2 swaps, a town with no TK has no beneficial way of getting rid of the Jester. Lynching him two more times would get rid of him, yes, but that costs two lynches and kills one townie in the process; it will never be beneficial to the town to do that. But that's OK, because the Town can win with the Jester alive.

JacksonVirgo wrote:Just to balance the role out, if the Jester gets killed at night AFTER they get lynched at least once or they get lynched for the third time, they will stay dead but they still win as long as the Town loses.


This makes sense to me. I would want the Jester to be able to win if he gets lynched and chooses not to return, but I wouldn't want the Jester to have an incentive to choose to stay dead just so he doesn't risk getting a personal loss due to being killed at night.
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Re: Jester Concept Idea

Postby JacksonVirgo » Sat Dec 07, 2019 2:43 pm

Brilliand wrote:
JacksonVirgo wrote:I was thinking that Jester could do a body-swap as many times as they are lynched but without a Jailor/Vigilante there would be no way of getting rid of the NE role and thus it'd be too powerful so I put a limit on it to two swaps, that way it can be just as useful as Witch can be because it wants to attract the lynch away from the Mafia.


Even with a limit of 2 swaps, a town with no TK has no beneficial way of getting rid of the Jester. Lynching him two more times would get rid of him, yes, but that costs two lynches and kills one townie in the process; it will never be beneficial to the town to do that. But that's OK, because the Town can win with the Jester alive.


Yeah, I thought that if the concept of Jester is known to town (after the first lynch) it would help town in a way that you can probably notice when someone is the new Jester and thus avoid lynching them over needing to kill them. You just need to watch out because mafia could gain majority with them faster.

Brilliand wrote:
JacksonVirgo wrote:Just to balance the role out, if the Jester gets killed at night AFTER they get lynched at least once or they get lynched for the third time, they will stay dead but they still win as long as the Town loses.


This makes sense to me. I would want the Jester to be able to win if he gets lynched and chooses not to return, but I wouldn't want the Jester to have an incentive to choose to stay dead just so he doesn't risk getting a personal loss due to being killed at night.


Do you think Jester should win if they aren't lynched but still live to see Town lose? In addition, do you think this role could be on par with Witch? Of course, it works differently but would one be more useful than the other in general?

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Re: Jester Concept Idea

Postby Brilliand » Sun Dec 08, 2019 4:46 am

JacksonVirgo wrote:Do you think Jester should win if they aren't lynched but still live to see Town lose?


I don't see why not. Sure, if the town loses because they didn't do enough lynching, let the Jester have his win.

JacksonVirgo wrote:In addition, do you think this role could be on par with Witch? Of course, it works differently but would one be more useful than the other in general?


I'd say yes. They're useful in completely different situations, but they each have fairly common situation where they shine.
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Re: Jester Concept Idea

Postby Kirize12 » Mon Dec 09, 2019 12:38 am

This actually was the Disguiser at a certain point and it was reworked, let's not bring it back.
Factional balance - understanding that whisper games are bad because they cause Town to win a disproportionate amount

Strategical balance - understanding that whisper games are bad because there's no reason to use any other strategy

Structural balance - understanding that disabling the Mayor's whispers, despite it fixing whisper games, means that a player can't use a core mechanic of the game and is still bad

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Re: Jester Concept Idea

Postby JacksonVirgo » Mon Dec 09, 2019 2:46 am

Kirize12 wrote:This actually was the Disguiser at a certain point and it was reworked, let's not bring it back.

Since I wasn't an active player back when the old Disguiser was a thing, mind letting me know what's wrong with this role in specific?

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Re: Jester Concept Idea

Postby NefariousDjinn » Mon Dec 09, 2019 12:43 pm

JacksonVirgo wrote:
Kirize12 wrote:This actually was the Disguiser at a certain point and it was reworked, let's not bring it back.


The original disguiser allowed the disguiser to switch their in game name with that of another player when they died. Many players used this to post offensive material under the disguised name. That was one problem

The other was that it was really easy to confirm a disguised player because it wouldn't erase the will so the will it posted under the old name would often have the player name in it so...

But its the first part that was the real problem that most people recognized as being pretty awful since there was no way for a report against a disguised player to be linked back to the original disguiser until the end game lobby.
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Re: Jester Concept Idea

Postby JacksonVirgo » Mon Dec 09, 2019 1:36 pm

NefariousDjinn wrote:
JacksonVirgo wrote:
Kirize12 wrote:This actually was the Disguiser at a certain point and it was reworked, let's not bring it back.


The original disguiser allowed the disguiser to switch their in game name with that of another player when they died. Many players used this to post offensive material under the disguised name. That was one problem

The other was that it was really easy to confirm a disguised player because it wouldn't erase the will so the will it posted under the old name would often have the player name in it so...

But its the first part that was the real problem that most people recognized as being pretty awful since there was no way for a report against a disguised player to be linked back to the original disguiser until the end game lobby.


1. The trial system can be tweaked in a way so that you report whatever player is doing the offensive materials, even if it's the Jester now, and the trial system will see which user is controlling that name at the point of the offense and then judge accordingly. Of course the trial system will need to be changed, but that wouldn't be too much of a problem.

2. This is how the Jester conversion works because it wouldn't have the same issue I don't think.
D1 -> John Proctor rolls Jester
D2 -> John Proctor gets lynched, showing their role and will to Town.
N3 -> Converts into Deodat Lawson.
D5 -> Deodat Lawson gets lynched, showing their role and will to Town. (Jester, and the Jester's will. Might post the OG players role + will as well, not sure.)
N5 -> Converts into Cotton Mather.

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Re: Jester Concept Idea

Postby EgyptFalcon » Mon Dec 09, 2019 4:40 pm

NefariousDjinn wrote:
JacksonVirgo wrote:
Kirize12 wrote:This actually was the Disguiser at a certain point and it was reworked, let's not bring it back.


The original disguiser allowed the disguiser to switch their in game name with that of another player when they died. Many players used this to post offensive material under the disguised name. That was one problem

The other was that it was really easy to confirm a disguised player because it wouldn't erase the will so the will it posted under the old name would often have the player name in it so...

But its the first part that was the real problem that most people recognized as being pretty awful since there was no way for a report against a disguised player to be linked back to the original disguiser until the end game lobby.


With careful implementation this is not like old disguiser and should be just fine.
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Re: Jester Concept Idea

Postby Kirize12 » Mon Dec 09, 2019 10:19 pm

EgyptFalcon wrote:
NefariousDjinn wrote:
JacksonVirgo wrote:
Kirize12 wrote:This actually was the Disguiser at a certain point and it was reworked, let's not bring it back.


The original disguiser allowed the disguiser to switch their in game name with that of another player when they died. Many players used this to post offensive material under the disguised name. That was one problem

The other was that it was really easy to confirm a disguised player because it wouldn't erase the will so the will it posted under the old name would often have the player name in it so...

But its the first part that was the real problem that most people recognized as being pretty awful since there was no way for a report against a disguised player to be linked back to the original disguiser until the end game lobby.


With careful implementation this is not like old disguiser and should be just fine.

that's not how this works
Factional balance - understanding that whisper games are bad because they cause Town to win a disproportionate amount

Strategical balance - understanding that whisper games are bad because there's no reason to use any other strategy

Structural balance - understanding that disabling the Mayor's whispers, despite it fixing whisper games, means that a player can't use a core mechanic of the game and is still bad

This matters - educate yourself.
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Re: Jester Concept Idea

Postby EgyptFalcon » Tue Dec 10, 2019 1:38 am

Kirize12 wrote:
EgyptFalcon wrote:
NefariousDjinn wrote:
JacksonVirgo wrote:
Kirize12 wrote:This actually was the Disguiser at a certain point and it was reworked, let's not bring it back.


The original disguiser allowed the disguiser to switch their in game name with that of another player when they died. Many players used this to post offensive material under the disguised name. That was one problem

The other was that it was really easy to confirm a disguised player because it wouldn't erase the will so the will it posted under the old name would often have the player name in it so...

But its the first part that was the real problem that most people recognized as being pretty awful since there was no way for a report against a disguised player to be linked back to the original disguiser until the end game lobby.


With careful implementation this is not like old disguiser and should be just fine.

that's not how this works


no it is
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Re: Jester Concept Idea

Postby JacksonVirgo » Tue Dec 10, 2019 1:59 am

Kirize12 wrote:
EgyptFalcon wrote:With careful implementation this is not like old disguiser and should be just fine.

that's not how this works

Mind explaining why? Because I disagree with you

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Re: Jester Concept Idea

Postby Brilliand » Tue Dec 10, 2019 2:24 am

This is exactly like old Disguiser, in the relevant aspect: It's a mechanic that allows two players to swap names. I don't see any way around that fact.

Now, this role and the old Disguiser could both be OK, provided the trial system is upgraded to something that can cope with a name-swapping mechanic. However, that would require a rework of the in-game reporting mechanism, to allow players to indicate exactly what text they're reporting the player for; if that feature isn't added to the in-game reporting mechanism, then the trial system will be flooded with reports that are simply on the wrong person (and the trial system alone will have difficulty compensating for that).

Now, I actually think that letting people report a specific chat message instead of reporting a person by name is a great idea, but it's a tough sell because it's extra development work for the devs.
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Re: Jester Concept Idea

Postby EgyptFalcon » Wed Dec 11, 2019 1:51 am

Brilliand wrote:This is exactly like old Disguiser, in the relevant aspect: It's a mechanic that allows two players to swap names. I don't see any way around that fact.

Now, this role and the old Disguiser could both be OK, provided the trial system is upgraded to something that can cope with a name-swapping mechanic. However, that would require a rework of the in-game reporting mechanism, to allow players to indicate exactly what text they're reporting the player for; if that feature isn't added to the in-game reporting mechanism, then the trial system will be flooded with reports that are simply on the wrong person (and the trial system alone will have difficulty compensating for that).

Now, I actually think that letting people report a specific chat message instead of reporting a person by name is a great idea, but it's a tough sell because it's extra development work for the devs.


Do you report jesters for gamethrowing because they spread false info? No? So why would you report a jester for gamethrowing if someone else was doing the talking? Everyone knows when a jester dies and when someone could be reincarnated. Everyone knows who the real jester is (in case hate speech). There is no problem here.
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Re: Jester Concept Idea

Postby NefariousDjinn » Wed Dec 11, 2019 9:04 am

EgyptFalcon wrote:
Brilliand wrote:This is exactly like old Disguiser, in the relevant aspect: It's a mechanic that allows two players to swap names. I don't see any way around that fact.

Now, this role and the old Disguiser could both be OK, provided the trial system is upgraded to something that can cope with a name-swapping mechanic. However, that would require a rework of the in-game reporting mechanism, to allow players to indicate exactly what text they're reporting the player for; if that feature isn't added to the in-game reporting mechanism, then the trial system will be flooded with reports that are simply on the wrong person (and the trial system alone will have difficulty compensating for that).

Now, I actually think that letting people report a specific chat message instead of reporting a person by name is a great idea, but it's a tough sell because it's extra development work for the devs.


Do you report jesters for gamethrowing because they spread false info? No? So why would you report a jester for gamethrowing if someone else was doing the talking? Everyone knows when a jester dies and when someone could be reincarnated. Everyone knows who the real jester is (in case hate speech). There is no problem here.


The point is if the Jester reincarnates into a player and starts spamming or posting hateful messages then that player gets reported.. now say that the player gets lynched after the reports are filed to reveal that they were originally the jester... those reports against that player don't magically go away... Or for the case of multiple jesters there would be no in game way to determine which of the jesters possessed which player and posted those messages.

Essentially unless the role is made unique then this runs in to a lot of issues. The issues aren't insurmountable but they exist. To solve this issue you would need a constant ID log in game of each player name to the user login name throughout so that when a report is filed against an ingame name even if it is "Possessed" it would be correctly identified by the system to the User ID that was posting under the ingame name. You would need the ingame report system to automatically post these details to the review when a report is filed against an ingame name.

Add that to the fact that this change doesn't benefit the role of jester and actually makes the role more frustrating because even if you successfully get lynched you can still lose the game because town wins... and I think this disqualifies this for me. It's a bunch of additional work to implement for making a role more likely to lose.
NefariousDjinn
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