Fixing Disguiser

Suggest new roles or changes to current roles for the game here.

Re: Fixing Disguiser

Postby NefariousDjinn » Sun Dec 08, 2019 4:30 pm

I think you guys are actually overthinking this a great deal as this would force a lot of reworking of the coding and still makes the role dependent on TIs to be effective in its usage. However, I would like to offer an input and see what you think on the matter. I've made the suggestion before but it is a simple tweak in the disguisers function that works within the current framework of the Disguiser's ability but slightly expands it so it is more effective and doesn't rely on TIs to function.

Three points:

Point 1- Disguiser visits should be detection immune for this tweak as it is necessary for the role to function accordingly

Point 2- Disguiser should function more directly like a transporter. Which is to say that it's ability should be "Select one Mafia Member to disguise as a member of the Town" Disguised players will appear to investigators as the role of the other player. If a disguised player is killed their role will appear as the other player.

Example: You have chosen Giles Corey to disguise.... You have chosen to disguise your target as Samuel Sewall

Giles Corey is your Godfather and Samuel Sewall is a medium.
Samuel Sewall was mauled by a Werewolf
Samuel Sewall's role was Godfather.

In this method you can actively deceive town about how many mafia are still in the game and what mafia roles are in play. I'd suggest making it fully function like a fake trans in swapping roles (Not targeting) and have it able to disguise any two players but I fear that might be a bit too much though I could see fun like disguising one town member with a known vet then killing them so the vet "dies" thus getting town to hang the real vet when they claim.

Point 3 -This role increases the efficiency of the other Mafia Deceptive roles. It can work with a Consig to learn vital roles to disguise the other mafia under. It can be used in concert with a framer to make a particular target look doubly suspicious. It can work with hypnotist to fake and confirm a non-existent transporter

Example: Hypnotist "Transports" one player. Disguiser disguises the target the mafia is killing as themselves or mafioso. Hypnotist appears as transporter because mafia killed mafia and is thus confirmed by town.

I think this works well and is only a minor alteration to what the disguiser currently does.
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Re: Fixing Disguiser

Postby JacksonVirgo » Sun Dec 08, 2019 5:33 pm

NefariousDjinn wrote:I think you guys are actually overthinking this a great deal as this would force a lot of reworking of the coding and still makes the role dependent on TIs to be effective in its usage. However, I would like to offer an input and see what you think on the matter. I've made the suggestion before but it is a simple tweak in the disguisers function that works within the current framework of the Disguiser's ability but slightly expands it so it is more effective and doesn't rely on TIs to function.

Three points:

Point 1- Disguiser visits should be detection immune for this tweak as it is necessary for the role to function accordingly

Point 2- Disguiser should function more directly like a transporter. Which is to say that it's ability should be "Select one Mafia Member to disguise as a member of the Town" Disguised players will appear to investigators as the role of the other player. If a disguised player is killed their role will appear as the other player.

Example: You have chosen Giles Corey to disguise.... You have chosen to disguise your target as Samuel Sewall

Giles Corey is your Godfather and Samuel Sewall is a medium.
Samuel Sewall was mauled by a Werewolf
Samuel Sewall's role was Godfather.

In this method you can actively deceive town about how many mafia are still in the game and what mafia roles are in play. I'd suggest making it fully function like a fake trans in swapping roles (Not targeting) and have it able to disguise any two players but I fear that might be a bit too much though I could see fun like disguising one town member with a known vet then killing them so the vet "dies" thus getting town to hang the real vet when they claim.

Point 3 -This role increases the efficiency of the other Mafia Deceptive roles. It can work with a Consig to learn vital roles to disguise the other mafia under. It can be used in concert with a framer to make a particular target look doubly suspicious. It can work with hypnotist to fake and confirm a non-existent transporter

Example: Hypnotist "Transports" one player. Disguiser disguises the target the mafia is killing as themselves or mafioso. Hypnotist appears as transporter because mafia killed mafia and is thus confirmed by town.

I think this works well and is only a minor alteration to what the disguiser currently does.


Point 1 - No mafia member except Godfather will ever be allowed to have detection immunity or it's unbalanced.
Point 2 - No, has the same problem as the old disguiser and is too poweful as well as it only still affects one of many Town Investigative roles when alive
Point 3 - What?


Also so what if it needs a whole shit tonne of new code, it's way better than the current role and other reworks and it's much more dynamic, affecting all TI roles instead of one when alive. Any Mafia role that wants to die to use their ability is stupid, and changing the appeared role of dead players outside of the Disguiser themselves is unbalanced as heck

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Re: Fixing Disguiser

Postby Boredfan1 » Sun Dec 08, 2019 7:46 pm

1-Regardless of the change, this needs to be.

2-The problem with this is it because super dependent on having a consigliere and selecting confirmed town members. Without a consigliere, this honestly is useless in coven mode due to crusader and all around useless because out of all any, the town can immediately pick up that the person was disguised provided that the town isn't dumb and enough of the role list has been revealed.

3-It would take some reworking of the code, ya but it wouldn't be a massive undetaking and it would make the role not a dead one.
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Re: Fixing Disguiser

Postby NefariousDjinn » Mon Dec 09, 2019 12:37 pm

JacksonVirgo wrote:
NefariousDjinn wrote:I think you guys are actually overthinking this a great deal as this would force a lot of reworking of the coding and still makes the role dependent on TIs to be effective in its usage. However, I would like to offer an input and see what you think on the matter. I've made the suggestion before but it is a simple tweak in the disguisers function that works within the current framework of the Disguiser's ability but slightly expands it so it is more effective and doesn't rely on TIs to function.

Three points:

Point 1- Disguiser visits should be detection immune for this tweak as it is necessary for the role to function accordingly

Point 2- Disguiser should function more directly like a transporter. Which is to say that it's ability should be "Select one Mafia Member to disguise as a member of the Town" Disguised players will appear to investigators as the role of the other player. If a disguised player is killed their role will appear as the other player.

Example: You have chosen Giles Corey to disguise.... You have chosen to disguise your target as Samuel Sewall

Giles Corey is your Godfather and Samuel Sewall is a medium.
Samuel Sewall was mauled by a Werewolf
Samuel Sewall's role was Godfather.

In this method you can actively deceive town about how many mafia are still in the game and what mafia roles are in play. I'd suggest making it fully function like a fake trans in swapping roles (Not targeting) and have it able to disguise any two players but I fear that might be a bit too much though I could see fun like disguising one town member with a known vet then killing them so the vet "dies" thus getting town to hang the real vet when they claim.

Point 3 -This role increases the efficiency of the other Mafia Deceptive roles. It can work with a Consig to learn vital roles to disguise the other mafia under. It can be used in concert with a framer to make a particular target look doubly suspicious. It can work with hypnotist to fake and confirm a non-existent transporter

Example: Hypnotist "Transports" one player. Disguiser disguises the target the mafia is killing as themselves or mafioso. Hypnotist appears as transporter because mafia killed mafia and is thus confirmed by town.

I think this works well and is only a minor alteration to what the disguiser currently does.


Point 1 - No mafia member except Godfather will ever be allowed to have detection immunity or it's unbalanced.
Point 2 - No, has the same problem as the old disguiser and is too poweful as well as it only still affects one of many Town Investigative roles when alive
Point 3 - What?


Also so what if it needs a whole shit tonne of new code, it's way better than the current role and other reworks and it's much more dynamic, affecting all TI roles instead of one when alive. Any Mafia role that wants to die to use their ability is stupid, and changing the appeared role of dead players outside of the Disguiser themselves is unbalanced as heck


Point 1- By detection immunity I mean their visits wouldn't be seen rather then immune to sheriff because yes that would be impractical. No mafia currently has invisible visits so this would be a unique faucet of the role. Perhaps "Invisible visits" would've been a better terminology.

Point 2 - This doesn't require the mafia to die to be effective. It utilizes the deception in two directions. It fools the TI role but its primary function is to disguise two players as each other both when they are investigated and when they have died. This allows you to kill town and falsify them as mafia, though doing so would alert people to a possible disguiser unless a transporter is in game. Of course you might also be able to predict who an SK is and who they might target. I wouldn't argue that this is too powerful as it is literally the same function of the current disguiser just being expanded that it doesn't only work on oneself thus no longer forcing you to sacrifice a member of the mafia to be effective.

Point 3 - This is pretty easy to understand. Using this in concert with the other mafia roles increases their ability to effectively control town information. I've given examples

And I am curious is here your argument as to how it is unbalanced. I don't personally agree but I will accept a valid argument to the counterpoint if I find it to be valid. The role that's currently pitched is essentially premised to be an overly complicated and less effective form of the framer as it can only fool some roles some nights maybe if its fortunate enough for that particular role to A.) be in the game. B.) select the right target and C.) Select that target on the correct night that you choose the ability that effectively fools that particular TI.


The changes that I've suggested are simple, easy to implement, and effective regardless of what TI are in the game.

1. Give the disguiser astral visits so they aren't seen by LO/Spy/Tracker and aren't killed by crusaders or vets. Since they aren't an attacking role this isn't Overpowered and is a feature that no other mafia has that I know of.

2. Allow their disguise to be used on any member of the mafia rather then just themselves and rather make it effective in reverse so that it doesn't just hide mafia but also possibly incriminates town when they claim outside of investigation results. -This is one of the two abilities you already pitched It's the second night ability.


The disguisers role is meant to effect the role list reliability by cross confirming through the graveyard. That is its current function. The suggestions I've made have been purely expanding that function to the point that it actually serves to purpose. Your rework doesn't serve the disguiser's current purpose and overly complicates the role to the point that it becomes even less effective then it currently is.

The three primary flaws with the disguiser as it stands are:

1. It requires the sacrifice of one mafia member to function.
2. It is only effective against one Ti and is only effective for one member of the mafia meaning that it is virtually useless
3. It is too easy to die while visiting and cross confirm town by dying as a non-visiting role.
4. As a result of point 3 it is easy for town to cross confirm town roles by confirming a vet, or non-visiting role protected by BG or Crusader.

The changes suggested would fix all four of these issues.

Boredfan1 wrote:1-Regardless of the change, this needs to be.

2-The problem with this is it because super dependent on having a consigliere and selecting confirmed town members. Without a consigliere, this honestly is useless in coven mode due to crusader and all around useless because out of all any, the town can immediately pick up that the person was disguised provided that the town isn't dumb and enough of the role list has been revealed.

3-It would take some reworking of the code, ya but it wouldn't be a massive undetaking and it would make the role not a dead one.


I will only address point 2 here as I don't necessarily disagree with the other two points

To point 2 - I would argue that this isn't necessarily true. While a smart town might be able to discern who is disguised if all of the town roles are confirmed or if a role is disguised as a confirmable role such as a Ret, Jailor, Vet, or Mayor there are tons of ways to exploit this to open claim space fore your mafia. For instance, you can claim theres a disguiser is in the game when you are being role called to claim a unique role is disguised even when it is not.

This would buy you a single night sure to confirm youself if you claim something like Jailor or Ret or Vet perhaps.. not mayor obviously as you'd be demanded to reveal. But that night could be the difference between having majority or not.

You can also incriminate town to give your mafia claim space. Making it appear as if a member of mafia died And since you'd be the only faction to know that the dead person isn't mafia you could reliably figure out a role that hasn't been confirmed yet because they are dead and use that as your claim.

This role is basically useless in All Any beyond disguising invest results and incriminating claims of unique roles, but it is most effective in games with role lists because it allows you to control the perception of what roles are still in play in game and that, to me, is the reason the disguiser was created to begin with. Specifically to open claim space by effecting the reliance on the role list. It never fulfilled that function.. but that is the function it seems to have been created to serve. Since the role list is basically the strangle hold around mafia/covens neck.
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