Fixing Disguiser

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Fixing Disguiser

Postby Boredfan1 » Mon Nov 25, 2019 8:15 pm

Fixing disguiser is actually really simple, let the disguiser see the damn role of the one they choose to disguise as at the end of the night they disguise. This allows them to actually properly pretend to be what they are not and throw off town. The downside of this is that it gives the mafia more information with another sort of consigliere however, this could be mitigated by not allowing them to say that they are X role to their chat.


Edit: So there's main ide replacing the initial one thus far: Give the disguiser two abilities, one that makes someone look like someone else when they visit and change someone's role (temporarily of course). I also like the idea of the disguiser being a benign visit not seen by the spy since they can claim town protector and can't be outed as maf too easily unless you suck.
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Re: Fixing Disguiser

Postby JacksonVirgo » Mon Nov 25, 2019 8:34 pm

No, it'd be a stronger Consigliere considering restricting night chat is also a no.
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Re: Fixing Disguiser

Postby Boredfan1 » Mon Nov 25, 2019 8:35 pm

JacksonVirgo wrote:No, it'd be a stronger Consigliere


Not really. Like I said, they can make it so you can't say what the role was in mafia chat and you have to keep disguising as someone to keep up the appearance so your pretty limited in the info you can gather with it anyways. Without this, the role is pretty impossible.
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Re: Fixing Disguiser

Postby JacksonVirgo » Mon Nov 25, 2019 8:50 pm

Boredfan1 wrote:
JacksonVirgo wrote:No, it'd be a stronger Consigliere


Not really. Like I said, they can make it so you can't say what the role was in mafia chat and you have to keep disguising as someone to keep up the appearance so your pretty limited in the info you can gather with it anyways. Without this, the role is pretty impossible.

No offense man, this stuff is hard to get down and I learned that the hard way but two roles shouldn't be similar to each other (at least not in the same alignment).

Also, restricting chat only would bring something like this on and would never work
Godfather: Hey disg, what alignment are ya?
Disguiser: TI
Godfather: 1, sheriff. 2, investigator. 3, ......
Disguiser: 1

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Re: Fixing Disguiser

Postby JacksonVirgo » Mon Nov 25, 2019 9:17 pm

Since Disguiser is my favorite role concept, I am willing to work on a bunch of rework/buff ideas with ya if you're up for that

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Re: Fixing Disguiser

Postby MysticMismagius » Mon Nov 25, 2019 9:37 pm

Or, just remove Disguiser's ability to visit entirely, and instead let them pick any role they want to disguise as.
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Re: Fixing Disguiser

Postby JacksonVirgo » Mon Nov 25, 2019 9:39 pm

MysticMismagius wrote:Or, just remove Disguiser's ability to visit entirely, and instead let them pick any role they want to disguise as.

Yeah but that doesn't make the role very 'fun' or deceptivey especially since it only really affects ONE of the twenty bajillion TI roles

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Re: Fixing Disguiser

Postby MysticMismagius » Mon Nov 25, 2019 10:00 pm

But being able to choose whatever role you disguise as allows you to use all aspects of your disguise more effectively. The fact that you flip as the role you disguised as (while problematic in that it encourages you to die) can be used to stir up chaos and cause multiple people to be mislynched in your wake, or to cause the neutering of the Jailor or Vigilante.
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Re: Fixing Disguiser

Postby JacksonVirgo » Mon Nov 25, 2019 10:10 pm

MysticMismagius wrote:But being able to choose whatever role you disguise as allows you to use all aspects of your disguise more effectively. The fact that you flip as the role you disguised as (while problematic in that it encourages you to die) can be used to stir up chaos and cause multiple people to be mislynched in your wake, or to cause the neutering of the Jailor or Vigilante.

Yeah but like there's a difference between having a role that can work/is balanced vs a role that is fun to play as. I'd rather the latter being a major deciding factor in a role

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Re: Fixing Disguiser

Postby Boredfan1 » Mon Nov 25, 2019 10:24 pm

I agree with Jackson here. An okay strat is to disguise and get yourself hung as a stupid townie to throw off town but it leaves the rest of the game as AFK simulator.

And ya, I'll work with you, Jackson.
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Re: Fixing Disguiser

Postby JacksonVirgo » Mon Nov 25, 2019 10:32 pm

Boredfan1 wrote:I agree with Jackson here. An okay strat is to disguise and get yourself hung as a stupid townie to throw off town but it leaves the rest of the game as AFK simulator.

And ya, I'll work with you, Jackson.

So, just like Consigliere/Janitor/Hypnotist any mafia role should ideally be able to act in a dynamic way to aid the entire mafia instead of just specific clutch moments like the current Disguiser/Forger/Framer does. The OP suggestion rips off the Consigliere too much but if the Consigliere wasn't in the game, it'd be a perfect suggestion, the other idea where you can select your specific role to show as is also good but it doesn't help you at all if you play well because you won't be killed/checked and thus your ability is practically wasted. The role should probably be more dynamic and effect more than just themselves if you know what I mean but also keep the essence of how the disguiser works currently

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Re: Fixing Disguiser

Postby Boredfan1 » Mon Nov 25, 2019 10:40 pm

Honestly, I can't think of anything right now. My only suggestion would be to disguise others but that's close to the framer ability so unless they are willing to just remove framer, which I doubt, then it doesn't work.
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Re: Fixing Disguiser

Postby JacksonVirgo » Mon Nov 25, 2019 10:55 pm

Boredfan1 wrote:Honestly, I can't think of anything right now. My only suggestion would be to disguise others but that's close to the framer ability so unless they are willing to just remove framer, which I doubt, then it doesn't work.


What if the Disguiser has two night abilities, only one of which can be used in one night. They can either disguise or manipulate (manipulate sounds wrong but yeah). If they disguise, they can choose a player to disguise and a player for that person to be disguised as, the person disguised will appear as the disguisee (the person they're disguised as) both in role and face. So that Lookouts see the disguised person visit as the disguisee and Trackers will see the disguised person visiting instead of the disguisee if they target them (x is disguised as y, y is being tracked but tracker sees x's visit instead). Sheriff/Investigator will see the disguisee's role if the disguised is checked and yeah. Manipulation could be just be swapping invest checks between two people. Select two people, any investigative ability that targets one will target the other.

I mean it's not the greatest and it needs work but it does make it more dynamic I feel.

Framer could be changed so that it stockpiles and are all permanent until someone is checked. So that N1 they frame x (not checked by invest/sheriff), N2 they frame y (neither checked), N3 they frame z but y is checked and shows as frame/vamp/jest but then all x, y, z aren't framed anymore. Not sure but that would make it different than Disguiser just disguising someone as a mafia member

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Re: Fixing Disguiser

Postby Boredfan1 » Mon Nov 25, 2019 11:15 pm

I like it but here's a tweak. There are two disguise abilities; Appearance & Role. The appearance disguise only causes the disguised to appear as someone else when visiting so if Giles Corey is the mafioso but he's disguised as Jailer (the always used name) then the lookout sees jailor but if the investigator checks Giles, he still comes up as Vig/Vet/Mafioso. This allows the mafia to frame someone as mafioso while protecting their own butts. Now, the role disguise ability ONLY changes the role results of the selected person. This means that someone promoted to mafioso from say consigliere can still use their will from before their promotion which is especially helpful if you manage to get yourself confirmed by lynching an NK or NE or in the case of coven mode, a coven member. This helps ensure the mafia stays strong as long as they don't slip up or the town becomes wise to their ruse due to their own intelligence or maybe the help of neutrals. Of course, the tracker part remains the same.

Honestly, I feel like if they implemented the above though, the framer would become useless since the disguiser would do it's job better, actually living up to that namesake. The only way I could see framer being kept is if they could change the mafia kill to the kill of say a neutral killing or a townie role like vet. The problem being though that these two roles would be similar.
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Re: Fixing Disguiser

Postby JacksonVirgo » Mon Nov 25, 2019 11:24 pm

Boredfan1 wrote:I like it but here's a tweak. There are two disguise abilities; Appearance & Role. The appearance disguise only causes the disguised to appear as someone else when visiting so if Giles Corey is the mafioso but he's disguised as Jailer (the always used name) then the lookout sees jailor but if the investigator checks Giles, he still comes up as Vig/Vet/Mafioso. This allows the mafia to frame someone as mafioso while protecting their own butts. Now, the role disguise ability ONLY changes the role results of the selected person. This means that someone promoted to mafioso from say consigliere can still use their will from before their promotion which is especially helpful if you manage to get yourself confirmed by lynching an NK or NE or in the case of coven mode, a coven member. This helps ensure the mafia stays strong as long as they don't slip up or the town becomes wise to their ruse due to their own intelligence or maybe the help of neutrals. Of course, the tracker part remains the same.

Honestly, I feel like if they implemented the above though, the framer would become useless since the disguiser would do it's job better, actually living up to that namesake. The only way I could see framer being kept is if they could change the mafia kill to the kill of say a neutral killing or a townie role like vet. The problem being though that these two roles would be similar.

So you're thinking that Disguiser should be able to choose between appearance (visiting as somebody's name/face) and role (appearing as somebody's role when investigated)? Because I actually like the idea, I suggested it in both of my older Mafia Rework threads.

Perhaps Framer could be like the Manipulation part of the previous post, switching the investigator checks of two players thus you can easily frame someone by swapping yourself with them (thus having the frame/vamp/jest as it always has) as well as having more control and you can save your mafia's ass. Would the new disguiser/framer roles here be too similar to each other after that?

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Re: Fixing Disguiser

Postby Boredfan1 » Tue Nov 26, 2019 12:54 am

Yes, that's correct. But for framer, if you could control what the results were, then framer would be a great role. I was thinking not to limit it to the actual results but not only would that make things too complicated on both the player and developer side but it would make the framer pretty overpowered since you could never trust investigators, making them a dead role. We really don't need dead roles so we should limit it to the actual results. This rework would make them slightly similar but not all that similar that it would be a problem in my opinion.
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Re: Fixing Disguiser

Postby Brilliand » Tue Nov 26, 2019 12:54 pm

Boredfan1 wrote:I agree with Jackson here. An okay strat is to disguise and get yourself hung as a stupid townie to throw off town but it leaves the rest of the game as AFK simulator.


Sort of like when you manage to use your ability as Bodyguard?
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Re: Fixing Disguiser

Postby JacksonVirgo » Tue Nov 26, 2019 9:30 pm

Brilliand wrote:
Boredfan1 wrote:I agree with Jackson here. An okay strat is to disguise and get yourself hung as a stupid townie to throw off town but it leaves the rest of the game as AFK simulator.


Sort of like when you manage to use your ability as Bodyguard?

I don't understand what you're meaning?

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Re: Fixing Disguiser

Postby Kirize12 » Wed Nov 27, 2019 1:00 am

MysticMismagius wrote:Or, just remove Disguiser's ability to visit entirely, and instead let them pick any role they want to disguise as.

I'd still allow it to benign visit, since it allows it to claim protective. Maybe with a two-shot beguiler?
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Re: Fixing Disguiser

Postby Kyosji » Wed Nov 27, 2019 6:50 am

JacksonVirgo wrote:
MysticMismagius wrote:Or, just remove Disguiser's ability to visit entirely, and instead let them pick any role they want to disguise as.

Yeah but that doesn't make the role very 'fun' or deceptivey especially since it only really affects ONE of the twenty bajillion TI roles



Role isn't fun now. Whenever I chose Disguiser, I don't click anything. There's really no point in it. You live longer not doing anything because you avoid vets and WW targets. Selecting a random role, you have no way to impersonate anything because you have NO idea what that role is. You chose the target your GF kills, you're that role for that day...then what? The entire premises of that role makes no sense, and honestly I don't understand why it's even in the game. It doesn't benefit anyone except sometimes throw off the count of mafia town sees, which is meaningless anyways since the mafia spawn count is random.
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Re: Fixing Disguiser

Postby JacksonVirgo » Wed Nov 27, 2019 6:58 am

Kyosji wrote:
JacksonVirgo wrote:
MysticMismagius wrote:Or, just remove Disguiser's ability to visit entirely, and instead let them pick any role they want to disguise as.

Yeah but that doesn't make the role very 'fun' or deceptivey especially since it only really affects ONE of the twenty bajillion TI roles



Role isn't fun now. Whenever I chose Disguiser, I don't click anything. There's really no point in it. You live longer not doing anything because you avoid vets and WW targets. Selecting a random role, you have no way to impersonate anything because you have NO idea what that role is. You chose the target your GF kills, you're that role for that day...then what? The entire premises of that role makes no sense, and honestly I don't understand why it's even in the game. It doesn't benefit anyone except sometimes throw off the count of mafia town sees, which is meaningless anyways since the mafia spawn count is random.

Yeah that's why I suggested what I did earlier in this thread

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Re: Fixing Disguiser

Postby Boredfan1 » Wed Nov 27, 2019 3:28 pm

Kirize12 wrote:
MysticMismagius wrote:Or, just remove Disguiser's ability to visit entirely, and instead let them pick any role they want to disguise as.

I'd still allow it to benign visit, since it allows it to claim protective. Maybe with a two-shot beguiler?


As a benign visit that cannot be seen by spy, it would probably be decent however, then it wouldn't be disguiser but something else so it would have to be renamed. That's not necessarily a bad thing though I'm not one to look to for naming.
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Re: Fixing Disguiser

Postby Boredfan1 » Wed Nov 27, 2019 3:31 pm

Kyosji wrote:
JacksonVirgo wrote:
MysticMismagius wrote:Or, just remove Disguiser's ability to visit entirely, and instead let them pick any role they want to disguise as.

Yeah but that doesn't make the role very 'fun' or deceptivey especially since it only really affects ONE of the twenty bajillion TI roles



Role isn't fun now. Whenever I chose Disguiser, I don't click anything. There's really no point in it. You live longer not doing anything because you avoid vets and WW targets. Selecting a random role, you have no way to impersonate anything because you have NO idea what that role is. You chose the target your GF kills, you're that role for that day...then what? The entire premises of that role makes no sense, and honestly I don't understand why it's even in the game. It doesn't benefit anyone except sometimes throw off the count of mafia town sees, which is meaningless anyways since the mafia spawn count is random.


That's why me and Jackson came up with the following:

JacksonVirgo wrote:
Boredfan1 wrote:Honestly, I can't think of anything right now. My only suggestion would be to disguise others but that's close to the framer ability so unless they are willing to just remove framer, which I doubt, then it doesn't work.


What if the Disguiser has two night abilities, only one of which can be used in one night. They can either disguise or manipulate (manipulate sounds wrong but yeah). If they disguise, they can choose a player to disguise and a player for that person to be disguised as, the person disguised will appear as the disguisee (the person they're disguised as) both in role and face. So that Lookouts see the disguised person visit as the disguisee and Trackers will see the disguised person visiting instead of the disguisee if they target them (x is disguised as y, y is being tracked but tracker sees x's visit instead). Sheriff/Investigator will see the disguisee's role if the disguised is checked and yeah. Manipulation could be just be swapping invest checks between two people. Select two people, any investigative ability that targets one will target the other.

I mean it's not the greatest and it needs work but it does make it more dynamic I feel.

Framer could be changed so that it stockpiles and are all permanent until someone is checked. So that N1 they frame x (not checked by invest/sheriff), N2 they frame y (neither checked), N3 they frame z but y is checked and shows as frame/vamp/jest but then all x, y, z aren't framed anymore. Not sure but that would make it different than Disguiser just disguising someone as a mafia member


Boredfan1 wrote:I like it but here's a tweak. There are two disguise abilities; Appearance & Role. The appearance disguise only causes the disguised to appear as someone else when visiting so if Giles Corey is the mafioso but he's disguised as Jailer (the always used name) then the lookout sees jailor but if the investigator checks Giles, he still comes up as Vig/Vet/Mafioso. This allows the mafia to frame someone as mafioso while protecting their own butts. Now, the role disguise ability ONLY changes the role results of the selected person. This means that someone promoted to mafioso from say consigliere can still use their will from before their promotion which is especially helpful if you manage to get yourself confirmed by lynching an NK or NE or in the case of coven mode, a coven member. This helps ensure the mafia stays strong as long as they don't slip up or the town becomes wise to their ruse due to their own intelligence or maybe the help of neutrals. Of course, the tracker part remains the same.

Honestly, I feel like if they implemented the above though, the framer would become useless since the disguiser would do it's job better, actually living up to that namesake. The only way I could see framer being kept is if they could change the mafia kill to the kill of say a neutral killing or a townie role like vet. The problem being though that these two roles would be similar.
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Re: Fixing Disguiser

Postby MysticMismagius » Wed Nov 27, 2019 3:55 pm

Boredfan1 wrote:
Kirize12 wrote:
MysticMismagius wrote:Or, just remove Disguiser's ability to visit entirely, and instead let them pick any role they want to disguise as.
I'd still allow it to benign visit, since it allows it to claim protective. Maybe with a two-shot beguiler?
As a benign visit that cannot be seen by spy, it would probably be decent however, then it wouldn't be disguiser but something else so it would have to be renamed. That's not necessarily a bad thing though I'm not one to look to for naming.
one could argue that it’s still disguising, just as a role instead of a person. It’s like how ancient ninjas disguised as peddlers or whatever job would fit for the mission: they didn’t have to be disguised as a particular person for it to be called a disguise.
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Re: Fixing Disguiser

Postby Boredfan1 » Wed Nov 27, 2019 4:34 pm

MysticMismagius wrote:
Boredfan1 wrote:
Kirize12 wrote:
MysticMismagius wrote:Or, just remove Disguiser's ability to visit entirely, and instead let them pick any role they want to disguise as.
I'd still allow it to benign visit, since it allows it to claim protective. Maybe with a two-shot beguiler?
As a benign visit that cannot be seen by spy, it would probably be decent however, then it wouldn't be disguiser but something else so it would have to be renamed. That's not necessarily a bad thing though I'm not one to look to for naming.
one could argue that it’s still disguising, just as a role instead of a person. It’s like how ancient ninjas disguised as peddlers or whatever job would fit for the mission: they didn’t have to be disguised as a particular person for it to be called a disguise.


True, very true.
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