Werewolf (Neutral Killing)

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Werewolf (Neutral Killing)

Postby orangeandblack5 » Sun Nov 10, 2019 7:37 am

Werewolf

Alignment: Neutral Killing

Abilities: Build up primal energy from the full moon, then transform into a monster to kill one or several people at night.

Attributes:
-Basic Defense
-Gain two kill charges every full moon (Note: full moons now occur every three nights, so N1, N4, N7, N10, etc.)
-You may have a maximum of three kill charges at any time. Any extras you would gain are lost.
-If you choose to attack one player, you will maul them and clean them. You will be informed the sub alignment of your cleaned targets, but will not be given their exact role or will.
-If you choose to attack more than one player, you will rampage and be immune to roleblocking, controlling, and transportation for the night.
-You cannot kill the night following a successful maul.
-You may not rampage night one.
-You are detection immune if you are incapable of killing.

Goal: Kill everyone who would oppose you.

Win Conditions:
Wins with Werewolves
Wins with Witches
Wins with Survivors
Must kill Town
Must kill Mafia
Must kill Serial Killers
Must kill Arsonists
Must kill Vampires

Investigative Results:
Sheriff:
  • If you have kill charges: Your target is suspicious!
  • If you are out of kill charges: You cannot find evidence of wrongdoing. Your target seems innocent.
Investigator: Your target could be a Sheriff, Executioner, Werewolf, or Poisoner.
Consigliere: Your target howls at the moon. They must be a Werewolf.

F.A.Q.

Why does Werewolf need a rework?
Werewolf is by far the worst Neutral Killing role, being much more heavily dictated by factors outside of its control than any other NK and having a base kill-power of 0.5 kills per night, half that of the Serial Killer. The issues with its current rampage setup are many - it relies on others visiting its own target to get a kill, and cannot reliably determine who exactly will visit who on any given night; it gains or loses power based on the number of visiting roles, so, for example, a game with two Mediums, a Veteran, and a Retributionist is going to leave the Werewolf scrambling to get any kills, while a game with two Transporters and a bunch of other visiting roles will leave the Werewolf with an abundance of easy targets; and you are incredibly weak to Bodyguards due to their interaction with your rampage ability. The inability to kill except for during a full moon also leaves you incredibly vulnerable if you are found before a night where you cannot kill, often leaving the Werewolf in a sorry spot even if it isn't taken out at night. In short, this role has too many problems for a small tweak to fix, and is in need of a rework.

This looks very similar to Parallax's Butcher - what's up with that?
This is indeed a slightly tweaked version of Parallax's Butcher, re-flavored as a Werewolf rework to minimize coding time necessary to implement it. I also made a few tweaks of my own, such as limiting the role at three kills, to prevent people from playing it like an Arsonist (as that role already exists and being able to save up kills without having to predict who will still be alive like Arsonist does is strictly stronger), and making it immune to Transporter when it rampages, as a way to make it truly disruption-immune. I'd love to hear some discussion about these changes from Parallax's role and whether or not I'm on the right track.

Why the Butcher in particular?
Although having less than 1 average kills per night is traditionally considered weak, I think this role is quite smart in how its systems interact. There are many benefits to both methods of killing, and unlike a role such as Serial Killer or Arsonist, acting every single night is not only not in your best interests, but also impossible. This forces the player to plan ahead and focus on the timing of their kills so as to never be unable to kill on a night when they really need to - but there is also benefit in running out of kills, making you detection immune, so even that must be a tactical decision by the player. This would go from being a really random NK with a very low skill ceiling to an extremely precise NK with many different playstyles and the highest skill ceiling of any NK in the game, which would just be an amazing rebirth. I really do genuinely love this idea, and would love to see it in practice in-game.

Discuss.
Last edited by orangeandblack5 on Tue Feb 18, 2020 4:53 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Spoiler:
SwampRabbit wrote:your idea is that no town should ever be able to confirm themselves as town.

that is the dumbest idea I think I have heard.

ElderSivart wrote:I'm confused as to why BMG made a UI for Pirate and not Hypnotist.

Sarah Thorpe wrote:Role Ideas is great for masochists.
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Re: Werewolf (Neutral Killing)

Postby Kirize12 » Sun Nov 10, 2019 11:49 pm

Although the night-reliance was "bridged" by allowing it to kill on all nights, I don't like the idea of night-reliance in general. Potentially make it so that the role can "summon" a full moon, but not two nights in a row? That way it can time its cleans.

Is this Werewolf able to see the cleaned wills?
Factional balance - understanding that whisper games are bad because they cause Town to win a disproportionate amount

Strategical balance - understanding that whisper games are bad because there's no reason to use any other strategy

Structural balance - understanding that disabling the Mayor's whispers, despite it fixing whisper games, means that a player can't use a core mechanic of the game and is still bad

This matters - educate yourself.
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Re: Werewolf (Neutral Killing)

Postby Boredfan1 » Wed Nov 20, 2019 10:26 pm

We don't need ANOTHER cleaning role, especially for coven mode.
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Re: Werewolf (Neutral Killing)

Postby orangeandblack5 » Thu Nov 21, 2019 4:34 am

Coven is a high-powered killing frenzy.

It can deal.
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Spoiler:
SwampRabbit wrote:your idea is that no town should ever be able to confirm themselves as town.

that is the dumbest idea I think I have heard.

ElderSivart wrote:I'm confused as to why BMG made a UI for Pirate and not Hypnotist.

Sarah Thorpe wrote:Role Ideas is great for masochists.
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Re: Werewolf (Neutral Killing)

Postby PleaseReadSiege » Thu Nov 21, 2019 10:22 am

So basically it should be a more-powerful version of Serial Killer? Why keep serial killer then?
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Re: Werewolf (Neutral Killing)

Postby Boredfan1 » Thu Nov 21, 2019 2:22 pm

orangeandblack5 wrote:Coven is a high-powered killing frenzy.

It can deal.


So you want it so that town can never win? Ya, that's reaaal smart.
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Re: Werewolf (Neutral Killing)

Postby Kirize12 » Thu Nov 21, 2019 3:52 pm

The truth is, even though Werewolf is only immune to being RBd half the time, there's no guarantee of an escort/consort in every game. Balance shouldn't rely on the TS.
Factional balance - understanding that whisper games are bad because they cause Town to win a disproportionate amount

Strategical balance - understanding that whisper games are bad because there's no reason to use any other strategy

Structural balance - understanding that disabling the Mayor's whispers, despite it fixing whisper games, means that a player can't use a core mechanic of the game and is still bad

This matters - educate yourself.
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Re: Werewolf (Neutral Killing)

Postby orangeandblack5 » Thu Nov 21, 2019 4:31 pm

Which is why this is going to get reworked again lol
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Spoiler:
SwampRabbit wrote:your idea is that no town should ever be able to confirm themselves as town.

that is the dumbest idea I think I have heard.

ElderSivart wrote:I'm confused as to why BMG made a UI for Pirate and not Hypnotist.

Sarah Thorpe wrote:Role Ideas is great for masochists.
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Re: Werewolf (Neutral Killing)

Postby orangeandblack5 » Thu Nov 28, 2019 7:18 pm

Done with that rework - I actually like this Butcher concept more the more I think about it. It's definitely just a better version of my original proposal. I guess this is why I don't normally do role ideas!
Image
Spoiler:
SwampRabbit wrote:your idea is that no town should ever be able to confirm themselves as town.

that is the dumbest idea I think I have heard.

ElderSivart wrote:I'm confused as to why BMG made a UI for Pirate and not Hypnotist.

Sarah Thorpe wrote:Role Ideas is great for masochists.
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Re: Werewolf (Neutral Killing)

Postby kosmo16 » Mon Dec 09, 2019 10:41 am

Mixed feelings about this. For ranked it is too broken, because Town loses D3 most of the time. For AA it looks like a funny role to play.
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Re: Werewolf (Neutral Killing)

Postby orangeandblack5 » Mon Dec 09, 2019 1:45 pm

This literally kills less than a Serial Killer

Town cannot possibly lose faster with this than a Serial Killer
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Spoiler:
SwampRabbit wrote:your idea is that no town should ever be able to confirm themselves as town.

that is the dumbest idea I think I have heard.

ElderSivart wrote:I'm confused as to why BMG made a UI for Pirate and not Hypnotist.

Sarah Thorpe wrote:Role Ideas is great for masochists.
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Re: Werewolf (Neutral Killing)

Postby kosmo16 » Mon Dec 09, 2019 2:49 pm

orangeandblack5 wrote:This literally kills less than a Serial Killer

Town cannot possibly lose faster with this than a Serial Killer


Nope it is killing the same amount. Think about this strategy:
1. Don't kill n1
2. If mafia killed N1 kill 2 Townies N2. Enjoy.
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Re: Werewolf (Neutral Killing)

Postby Kirize12 » Mon Dec 09, 2019 3:50 pm

(Note: full moons now occur every three nights, so N1, N4, N7, N10, etc.)

did u miss this
Factional balance - understanding that whisper games are bad because they cause Town to win a disproportionate amount

Strategical balance - understanding that whisper games are bad because there's no reason to use any other strategy

Structural balance - understanding that disabling the Mayor's whispers, despite it fixing whisper games, means that a player can't use a core mechanic of the game and is still bad

This matters - educate yourself.
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Re: Werewolf (Neutral Killing)

Postby BasicFourLife » Mon Dec 09, 2019 3:52 pm

sub alignment, take it or take it. i checked my notes and hidden 2018 decided so, so sub alignment it is. also i was like the biggest advocate for butcher > ww name change which im pretty sure has already happened like a year ago ? ok bye, nice seeing u orangecock, youre a nice guy and u deserve happiness in ur life. bye bye, hidden has spoken
I am kindly telling you to fuck off mate.

FM / TG: 5 - 10 - 8
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Re: Werewolf (Neutral Killing)

Postby kosmo16 » Mon Dec 09, 2019 5:35 pm

Kirize12 wrote:(Note: full moons now occur every three nights, so N1, N4, N7, N10, etc.)

did u miss this


No, you get 2 charges n1, use them n2 to kill 2 people. You misinterpreted this.
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Re: Werewolf (Neutral Killing)

Postby orangeandblack5 » Mon Dec 09, 2019 7:48 pm

That's exactly the same as a Serial Killer at that point

Also to be clear you could use one of those charges N1 if you wish

Which would result in 1 less kill than a SK by D3 but your first kill being cleaned

Which isn't strictly better at all
Image
Spoiler:
SwampRabbit wrote:your idea is that no town should ever be able to confirm themselves as town.

that is the dumbest idea I think I have heard.

ElderSivart wrote:I'm confused as to why BMG made a UI for Pirate and not Hypnotist.

Sarah Thorpe wrote:Role Ideas is great for masochists.
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Re: Werewolf (Neutral Killing)

Postby kosmo16 » Tue Dec 10, 2019 1:16 am

orangeandblack5 wrote:That's exactly the same as a Serial Killer at that point


Exactly not the same.
1. SK has 1 blind kill + 1 kill with info from D2. WW has 2 kills with info from D2.
2. Playing 7v6 is different than 8v6 D2.
If there is 1 mafia + 1 Town dead EoD Jailor isn't preassured to execute whoever he jails N2 as much as when it is 1 mafia + 2 Town.

I won few times as WW and it was usually when I killed 2 Town N2.
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Re: Werewolf (Neutral Killing)

Postby orangeandblack5 » Tue Dec 10, 2019 3:37 am

While you make a fair point, I'd argue having that extra Town player alive D2 is explicitly in Town's favor in that scenario
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Spoiler:
SwampRabbit wrote:your idea is that no town should ever be able to confirm themselves as town.

that is the dumbest idea I think I have heard.

ElderSivart wrote:I'm confused as to why BMG made a UI for Pirate and not Hypnotist.

Sarah Thorpe wrote:Role Ideas is great for masochists.
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Re: Werewolf (Neutral Killing)

Postby kosmo16 » Tue Dec 10, 2019 3:44 am

orangeandblack5 wrote:While you make a fair point, I'd argue having that extra Town player alive D2 is explicitly in Town's favor in that scenario


I would say it is 50/50. Very dependent on what were roles of killed people. With less Town it is easier to apply process of elimination, but it is also easier for Mafia to be agressive and cause a mislynch.
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Re: Werewolf (Neutral Killing)

Postby orangeandblack5 » Tue Dec 10, 2019 3:46 am

It's harder to push a mislynch when you control a smaller percentage of the votes
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Spoiler:
SwampRabbit wrote:your idea is that no town should ever be able to confirm themselves as town.

that is the dumbest idea I think I have heard.

ElderSivart wrote:I'm confused as to why BMG made a UI for Pirate and not Hypnotist.

Sarah Thorpe wrote:Role Ideas is great for masochists.
User avatar
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Re: Werewolf (Neutral Killing)

Postby kosmo16 » Tue Dec 10, 2019 4:45 am

orangeandblack5 wrote:It's harder to push a mislynch when you control a smaller percentage of the votes


Yes, that's what I just said. Smaller amount of Townies, higher chance for mislynch when pushed by Mafia.
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Re: Werewolf (Neutral Killing)

Postby orangeandblack5 » Tue Dec 10, 2019 5:01 am

Ah

I misread

My apologies

I suppose I then don't see where you conclude this is much stronger in a blitz game than Serial Killer
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Spoiler:
SwampRabbit wrote:your idea is that no town should ever be able to confirm themselves as town.

that is the dumbest idea I think I have heard.

ElderSivart wrote:I'm confused as to why BMG made a UI for Pirate and not Hypnotist.

Sarah Thorpe wrote:Role Ideas is great for masochists.
User avatar
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Re: Werewolf (Neutral Killing)

Postby kosmo16 » Tue Dec 10, 2019 5:06 am

orangeandblack5 wrote:Ah

I misread

My apologies

I suppose I then don't see where you conclude this is much stronger in a blitz game than Serial Killer


Here:
kosmo16 wrote:If there is 1 mafia + 1 Town dead EoD Jailor isn't preassured to execute whoever he jails N2 as much as when it is 1 mafia + 2 Town.
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Re: Werewolf (Neutral Killing)

Postby orangeandblack5 » Tue Dec 10, 2019 5:19 am

So your fear is effectively that, because you may not be able to tell an Arsonist game from a Werewolf game on Day 2, the Jailor may not execute an evil that night on the basis that they don't know for sure that failure to do so will result in their loss?
Image
Spoiler:
SwampRabbit wrote:your idea is that no town should ever be able to confirm themselves as town.

that is the dumbest idea I think I have heard.

ElderSivart wrote:I'm confused as to why BMG made a UI for Pirate and not Hypnotist.

Sarah Thorpe wrote:Role Ideas is great for masochists.
User avatar
orangeandblack5
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Re: Werewolf (Neutral Killing)

Postby kosmo16 » Tue Dec 10, 2019 5:35 am

orangeandblack5 wrote:So your fear is effectively that, because you may not be able to tell an Arsonist game from a Werewolf game on Day 2, the Jailor may not execute an evil that night on the basis that they don't know for sure that failure to do so will result in their loss?


Exactly yes. Keep in mind that this brings a lot of toxicity to the game.
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