Vote Manipulation Question

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Vote Manipulation Question

Postby JacksonVirgo » Sat Oct 19, 2019 4:08 am

I know that vote manipulation is a terrible idea in this game considering, I was wondering if 'swapping' votes could be a role idea or a portion of one. Like Jester gets lynched, mayor chooses to inno but x switches this with your vote where you guilties. Mayor thus voted guilty and you, innocent. Not sure how this would possibly work but as a VERY simple concept or a beginnings of one, would this be 'allowed'.
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Re: Vote Manipulation Question

Postby Google » Sat Oct 19, 2019 6:58 am

Oh god no
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Re: Vote Manipulation Question

Postby JacksonVirgo » Sat Oct 19, 2019 9:30 pm

HA, that's hilarious! Okay just realized what I did here, I used Mayor as an example but I really meant any town.

Revealed Mayor excluded since they have 3 votes.
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Re: Vote Manipulation Question

Postby Gooose26 » Sun Oct 20, 2019 7:56 am

If the town are dumb enough to go for a super obvious lynch that the evils can accurately predict, there should be ways to punish the town’s lynching abilities. It happens to the evils with their night abilities, with roles like Tracker or Lookout, so it’s only fair to me that the evils can fight back against the town’s primary mechanism. Here’s an example of a role I made for the Cult that is somewhat related to the topic:

Arbiter
Spoiler: Summary:
You are a powerful figure that is secretly connected to the cult.

Stats:
Attack: None
Defense: None
Priority: 1st

Role Alignment:
Cult (Support)

Abilities:
- Choose 2 players each night

Attributes:
- If that player is lynched the next day, the lynch will be stopped and night will begin
- You will lose a charge when you successfully stop a lynch (2 charges)
- May not target a player two nights in a row

Sample Text:
"You will try to lynch Gooose26 tomorrow"
(Choosing a target to lynch)

"You have chosen Gooose26"
(Choosing your target)

"An Arbiter has decided to stop the lynch!"
(Announcement when a lynch is stopped)

In regard sto vote switching, I think that would be unbalanced because there isn’t anyhing the town can do to fight against that mechanic. If it’s a click of a button to switch votes, then the evils would always win with the mechanic. It needs to require proper manipulation and reading from the evils to take advantage.
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Re: Vote Manipulation Question

Postby ImposterK » Sun Oct 20, 2019 9:01 am

I feel like this would only be useful if there is a Mayor. Also, it would allow the Mayor to detect which player is evil by knowing that one of the Innocent voters is evil.

When it comes to an idea being "allowed" or not, I think it could work as long as you do it the right way. I had posted an idea awhile ago that I felt was a balanced vote-blocker role. To make my idea easy to understand, it is a Mafia Deception role that visits the player the Mafia is killing. That player will be healed but also blackmailed and voteblocked. The following night, that player will be roleblocked and will die. I might post this idea again since the old thread is archived and was organized chaotically.
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Re: Vote Manipulation Question

Postby Brilliand » Sun Oct 20, 2019 5:32 pm

Gooose26 wrote:If the town are dumb enough to go for a super obvious lynch that the evils can accurately predict, there should be ways to punish the town’s lynching abilities. It happens to the evils with their night abilities, with roles like Tracker or Lookout, so it’s only fair to me that the evils can fight back against the town’s primary mechanism.


The evils' counter to the town's lynching ability is that they can participate in the vote, both by making accusations and voting innocent/guilty. If the town's lynch is obvious because it's the only known evil, then countering that does too much to prevent the town from being able to harm the (relatively few) evils. And... if the town's lynch target isn't an evil at all... then the town's lynching power has already been countered, by the game of deception.
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Re: Vote Manipulation Question

Postby Gooose26 » Tue Oct 22, 2019 6:35 pm

Brilliand wrote:
Gooose26 wrote:If the town are dumb enough to go for a super obvious lynch that the evils can accurately predict, there should be ways to punish the town’s lynching abilities. It happens to the evils with their night abilities, with roles like Tracker or Lookout, so it’s only fair to me that the evils can fight back against the town’s primary mechanism.


The evils' counter to the town's lynching ability is that they can participate in the vote, both by making accusations and voting innocent/guilty. If the town's lynch is obvious because it's the only known evil, then countering that does too much to prevent the town from being able to harm the (relatively few) evils. And... if the town's lynch target isn't an evil at all... then the town's lynching power has already been countered, by the game of deception.

The only way it would be super obvious is through the unfair use of claimspacing. If the town can deduce evils simply by asking for claims from everyone, then the game is simply broken. The problem is that we see this in essentially every game, and that's why we see the town with an 86% winrate (not sure about current statistics, but I doubt it's deviated much from the last statistic I'd seen a year or so back). The fact of the matter is that the mafia can't reliably kill, but the town can reliably lynch. In the base, most balanced version of the game, with a goon vs. citizen setup (aka no night abilities other than a mafia kill), both the town and the mafia have a reliable killing mechanic, one at night and one at day. In Town of Salem, the mafia do not have a reliable mechanic because of roles like the Town Protectives, Escort, Lookout, Transporter, etc, but the town still have the same, reliable lynching mechanic. So we need to offset the two so that they are once again balanced. Choice A, remove all of the TPs and other roles that make killing unreliable/ineffective, or Choice B, create opportunities for the mafia to make lynching unreliable. Personally, I prefer Choice B.
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Re: Vote Manipulation Question

Postby JacksonVirgo » Tue Oct 22, 2019 6:37 pm

Gooose26 wrote:
Brilliand wrote:
Gooose26 wrote:If the town are dumb enough to go for a super obvious lynch that the evils can accurately predict, there should be ways to punish the town’s lynching abilities. It happens to the evils with their night abilities, with roles like Tracker or Lookout, so it’s only fair to me that the evils can fight back against the town’s primary mechanism.


The evils' counter to the town's lynching ability is that they can participate in the vote, both by making accusations and voting innocent/guilty. If the town's lynch is obvious because it's the only known evil, then countering that does too much to prevent the town from being able to harm the (relatively few) evils. And... if the town's lynch target isn't an evil at all... then the town's lynching power has already been countered, by the game of deception.

The only way it would be super obvious is through the unfair use of claimspacing. If the town can deduce evils simply by asking for claims from everyone, then the game is simply broken. The problem is that we see this in essentially every game, and that's why we see the town with an 86% winrate (not sure about current statistics, but I doubt it's deviated much from the last statistic I'd seen a year or so back). The fact of the matter is that the mafia can't reliably kill, but the town can reliably lynch. In the base, most balanced version of the game, with a goon vs. citizen setup (aka no night abilities other than a mafia kill), both the town and the mafia have a reliable killing mechanic, one at night and one at day. In Town of Salem, the mafia do not have a reliable mechanic because of roles like the Town Protectives, Escort, Lookout, Transporter, etc, but the town still have the same, reliable lynching mechanic. So we need to offset the two so that they are once again balanced. Choice A, remove all of the TPs and other roles that make killing unreliable/ineffective, or Choice B, create opportunities for the mafia to make lynching unreliable. Personally, I prefer Choice B.

I honestly never thought of it like that, I completely agree with you. But the way to do it is the question here
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Re: Vote Manipulation Question

Postby JacksonVirgo » Tue Oct 22, 2019 6:40 pm

Maybe if a Town is lynched, there needs to a day buffer between lynches?
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Re: Vote Manipulation Question

Postby Gooose26 » Tue Oct 22, 2019 10:37 pm

Introduction wrote:I've built an evil faction that is more focused on the lynching mechanics than the mafia. Here's a couple of examples of roles that manipulate the voting/lynching mechanics. One important note is that this faction is based on a voting system where total votes are not revealed. Rather than saying what everybody voted and how much they voted, it will simply reveal a guilty or innocent verdict and then proceed to end the day.


The Hollow is a vote blocker/accelerated endgame role. It's meant to take away the town majority a little bit earlier than they've actually lost it, so it can reveal like an evil Mayor in the endgame.

Hollow
Spoiler: Summary:
You are the leader of the cult, secretly using sacrifices to empower yourself.

Stats:
Attack: Powerful
Defense: Basic
Priority: 5th

Role Alignment:
Cult (Head)

Abilities:
- Every odd night, attack a player
- During the day, may reveal yourself as the Hollow by selecting the sun icon

Attributes:
- Players you kill will have their soul stolen, and they will appear as harvested in the graveyard
- When revealed, you will have the vote count of all the players you've killed added to your votes, and non-cult members cannot vote that day
- The following day after revealing, you will have just 1 vote, but non-cult members will still be unable to vote until the following day

Sample Text:
"You have decided to kill Gooose26 tonight."
(Choosing who to kill on odd nights

"Your soul was harvested! You have died!"
(Message to players who are killed by the Hollow))

"You have revealed yourself as the Hollow. You have ___ votes."
(Message to the Hollow if he reveals)

The Silencer and the Possessor cause something I like to call vote inflation. It means that some victims will count towards the votes needed to vote somebody onto the stands, but these victims won't be able to vote because they are actually dead.

Silencer
Spoiler: Summary:
You are the leader of the cult, using religion as a scapegoat to kill.

Stats:
Attack: Powerful
Defense: Basic
Priority: 5th

Role Alignment:
Cult (Head)

Abilities:
- Kill someone every other night, making them appear alive until attacked or lynched.

Attributes
- Your previous target will be announced dead when you target someone else.
- Your target will still count towards the vote count

Sample texts:
"You have decided to silence Gooose26 tonight."
(Choosing who to silence at night)

"You have been silenced. You have died!"
(Being killed by a Silencer)

Possessor
Spoiler: Summary:
You are a powerful necromancer who can control the dead.

Stats:
Attack: None
Defense: None
Priority: 3rd

Role Alignment:
Cult (Support)

Abilities:
- Possess a player each night

Attributes:
- 3 charges
- Players who are killed while possessed will not be killed, telling the attacker that their defense was too strong
- The possessed player will lose their night ability and their ability to vote (Still counting in voting total) when attacked
- Possession lasts 3 nights, if the player is not attacked within these 2 nights then the possession will wear off
- Only 2 players may be possessed at once
- If the attacked player has a strong enough defense to survive the attack, then they will not lose any abilities

Sample Text:
"You have decided to revive Gooose26 tonight"
(Choosing a dead target to be revived)

The Arbiter works as a lynch blocker. While it cannot stop somebody from getting voted onto the stands, it can stop them from being killed that day. This is arguably a bit weak, and I've considered adding the ability to either cause a guilty vote on 2 target players no matter what or stop a lynch.

Arbiter
Spoiler: Summary:
You are a powerful figure that is secretly connected to the cult.

Stats:
Attack: None
Defense: None
Priority: 1st

Role Alignment:
Cult (Support)

Abilities:
- Choose 2 players each night

Attributes:
- If that player is lynched the next day, the lynch will be stopped and night will begin
- You will lose a charge when you successfully stop a lynch (2 charges)
- May not target a player two nights in a row

Sample Text:
"You will try to lynch Gooose26 tomorrow"
(Choosing a target to lynch)

"You have chosen Gooose26"
(Choosing your target)

"An Arbiter has decided to stop the lynch!"
(Announcement when a lynch is stopped)
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