Florist [Town Protective]

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Florist [Town Protective]

Postby azurillia » Sun Oct 13, 2019 1:49 am

Role Name: Florist

Role Alignment: Town Protective

Special Attributes:
Attack: None
Defense: None


Abilities: Use your herbs to help to people

Attributes:
¦ You have three kind of Herbs. This term is clickable in-game and will pop up a new screen to describe it;
Visnaga - Roleblocks your target and gives them Powerful defense. You can't use this on yourself.
Malvaceae - Makes your target immune to all non-killing evil roles. One self-use.
Prunella - Heals your target, giving them Basic defense and preventing any disruption abilities. One self-use.

¦ Each herb has a two-day cooldown.


Goal: Lynch every criminal and evildoer

Investigator Results:
Sheriff - Your target is not suspicious.
Investigator - Escort, Consort, Transporter, Hypnotist, Florist
Consigliere - Your target uses herbage to heal their Town. They must be a Florist.

Notes:
─ Two days cooldown means you have to wait two days to use them again. Example: After you use Visnaga, you can only use Malvaceae and Prunella. You may use Visnaga again after that Night.
─ Disruption means controlling and roleblocking.
─ Malvaceae prevents all non-Town and non-killing roles to affect your target. These roles will get a specific notification about it.
Last edited by azurillia on Fri Oct 18, 2019 10:49 am, edited 7 times in total.
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Re: Florist [Town Protective]

Postby JacksonVirgo » Sun Oct 13, 2019 2:13 am

Writing my opinion in red as it goes down, if I ask a question that later gets answered in the post, ignore it lol


azurillia wrote:Abilities: Use one of your herbs to help someone. Okay

Attributes:
¦ You have three kind of Herbs. This term is clickable in-game and will pop up a new screen to describe it;
Visnaga - Roleblocks your target and gives them Powerful defense. You can't use this on yourself. I see the drawback you put in place here, it's nice. A Consort could easily claim this role too, which is nice
Malvaceae - Makes your target immune to deception and disruptionabilities that Night. You can use this on yourself. So you can't be roleblocked with this affecting you? Also deception meaning you can't be framed?
Prunella - Heals your target, giving them Basic defense and preventing any disruption abilities. You may use this on yourself once. A doctor heal that stops roleblocks? I mean I would be okay with just giving a Basic defense here

¦ Each herb has a 1-day cooldown. So you can use Prunella, then Visnaga, then Prunella again?
¦ Additionally, you will mark your targets with pollen powder. If a player with pollen flavor visits you, you will be informed about it. This is kind of a TI in a TP role, I don't personally agree with that.

So it functions similar to the Potion Master?

Goal: Lynch every criminal and evildoer

Investigator Results:
Sheriff - Your target is not suspicious.
Investigator - Escort, Consort, Transporter, Hypnotist, Florist
Consigliere - Your target uses plants to heal their Town. They must be a Florist.

Notes:
─ This is NOT the Potion Master's Town version. No. This is something that is unrevelant and distinct from PM and it shouldn't be mixed. It's fairly similar, mechanics-wise but the different potions are way different?
─ Each herb has a 1-day cooldown, so if you use one of them at N1, you will use them again at N3. Isn't that a two night delay? Or is my brain broken?
─ After you use Visnaga on your target, you will roleblock your target and give them Powerful defense. You can't use this on yourself Obviously, roleblocking yourself would be perfect lol
─ Malvaceae makes your target immune to deception; Janitor, Forger, Blackmailer, Framer, Hypnotist and Disguiser will fail against use their ability on their target. All of these roles will get a notification about this. You can use this on yourself without any limits. That answered the question, will you get notified if someone would try and deceptionify you? I invented a new word ya see?
─ Prunella simply heals your target with Basic Defense, cures the poison and preventing any disruption abilities like controlling and roleblocking. You may use this on yourself once. You will know that if your target is attacked. Again, I'd rather just give a basic defense here
─ Additionally, you will mark your targets with powder. If they visits you after you mark them, you will be notified that one of your targets visited you. You will learn their name or role. Iffy about TI mechanics in a TP
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Re: Florist [Town Protective]

Postby TheAntagonisticKitty » Sun Oct 13, 2019 1:07 pm

This role sounds cool. It should be added.
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Re: Florist [Town Protective]

Postby Soulshade55r » Sun Oct 13, 2019 10:50 pm

This seems somewhat OP but interesting.
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Re: Florist [Town Protective]

Postby ak521 » Mon Oct 14, 2019 7:40 pm

Get rid of the TI component. Then it's a good idea.
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Re: Florist [Town Protective]

Postby JacksonVirgo » Mon Oct 14, 2019 9:58 pm

ak521 wrote:Get rid of the TI component. Then it's a good idea.


^
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Re: Florist [Town Protective]

Postby Gooose26 » Tue Oct 15, 2019 11:27 pm

Yea, having an investigative nature to it makes it more of a Town Support, but really it's a weaker Doctor considering that knowing a highly unlikely visit like that won't make up for the lost utility of daily heals. Given the different herbs, Prunella simply outclasses the other two options in my opinion.
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Re: Florist [Town Protective]

Postby azurillia » Wed Oct 16, 2019 12:54 pm

Gooose26 wrote:Yea, having an investigative nature to it makes it more of a Town Support, but really it's a weaker Doctor considering that knowing a highly unlikely visit like that won't make up for the lost utility of daily heals. Given the different herbs, Prunella simply outclasses the other two options in my opinion.


you back?


@JacksonVirgo I read your post, I made too much mistake while writing so I will edit the post after I post this

Edit: Changed the role.

For anyone that complained about TI part: Yes it looks a little weird but Trapper can also work as a TI too; If there is a only one roleblocker claim in game and if a Trapper detect Consort, game is over for consort. I removed Herb options and make the healing simple with a roleblocking drawback because Florist technically follows its clients.
Pros:
-Evils might deny your pollen visit records
Cons:
- Evils can't claim this role. Actually this idea only buffs Consort; Hypnotist sits on that result like a turt while Consort can claim this but can't track pollens
- I removed herb options because they were absurd. Yeah. We don't need a multiskilled unnecessary Doctor right now.

This role needs some improvments
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Re: Florist [Town Protective]

Postby Gooose26 » Wed Oct 16, 2019 10:08 pm

azurillia wrote:For anyone that complained about TI part: Yes it looks a little weird but Trapper can also work as a TI too; If there is a only one roleblocker claim in game and if a Trapper detect Consort, game is over for consort. I removed Herb options and make the healing simple with a roleblocking drawback because Florist technically follows its clients.

This argument is based on the concept that Trapper is a good role. I'm not much of an expert on Coven, as I refuse to pay money into a terrible DLC for a mediocre game, but I don't think there are very many supporters of the Trapper as a whole. Your argument seems to fall apart in my opinion if we agree on the basis that Trapper isn't a good role.

azurillia wrote:Pros:
-Evils might deny your pollen visit records
Cons:
- Evils can't claim this role. Actually this idea only buffs Consort; Hypnotist sits on that result like a turt while Consort can claim this but can't track pollens
- I removed herb options because they were absurd. Yeah. We don't need a multiskilled unnecessary Doctor right now.

It's important to recognize the power of a role, but that's not the full piece of balancing a role. Pros and cons lists tell us if the role is too strong or too weak, but I'd like to focus on fixing the core mechanics of the role first. My biggest complaint is about fitting it into a proper alignment. If the role can heal, investigate, etc, then how can we determine where to put it?

----------

Just in case you don't believe alignment integrity is important, I'm going to attempt to clear that up in this paragraph. Alignment integrity is the need for each alignment to be filled with roles that are filled with the same niche. This means that Town Investigative will have the niche of catching evils, Town Protective will have the niche of protecting town, Town Killing will have the niche of killing evils, and so on and so forth. The problem arises when an alignment has roles that do not match the intended niche, and that's what we need to make sure we avoid with the Florist here. The best way to expose the problem is to push it to the extreme, so I want you to imagine a game that uses all Random Towns, or something of the sort. You could find yourself in a game with 5 Investigative roles, for instance. This is way too strong because they can confirm their data every day and confirmability/contra-confirmability becomes too common. You could find yourself in a game with 5 Protective roles. This is way too strong because they can protect each other, and hold onto the majority for as long as they need for maybe 1 Investigative role or 1 Killing role to find the evils. When every player is given a unique niche (or mostly unique, obviously some roles overlap), then we fall into the game that everybody knows and loves because there is a need for trust between townies, but a lack of confirmability or safety to find evils before losing majority.
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Re: Florist [Town Protective]

Postby JacksonVirgo » Wed Oct 16, 2019 10:16 pm

Gooose26 wrote:
azurillia wrote:For anyone that complained about TI part: Yes it looks a little weird but Trapper can also work as a TI too; If there is a only one roleblocker claim in game and if a Trapper detect Consort, game is over for consort. I removed Herb options and make the healing simple with a roleblocking drawback because Florist technically follows its clients.

This argument is based on the concept that Trapper is a good role. I'm not much of an expert on Coven, as I refuse to pay money into a terrible DLC for a mediocre game, but I don't think there are very many supporters of the Trapper as a whole. Your argument seems to fall apart in my opinion if we agree on the basis that Trapper isn't a good role.

I personally despise Trapper, especially the TI element within it.

Gooose26 wrote:
azurillia wrote:Pros:
-Evils might deny your pollen visit records
Cons:
- Evils can't claim this role. Actually this idea only buffs Consort; Hypnotist sits on that result like a turt while Consort can claim this but can't track pollens
- I removed herb options because they were absurd. Yeah. We don't need a multiskilled unnecessary Doctor right now.

It's important to recognize the power of a role, but that's not the full piece of balancing a role. Pros and cons lists tell us if the role is too strong or too weak, but I'd like to focus on fixing the core mechanics of the role first. My biggest complaint is about fitting it into a proper alignment. If the role can heal, investigate, etc, then how can we determine where to put it?

The herb options is what gave the role somewhat of an iotre of uniquness from other TP roles. I like the concept of a PM or a town version of a pm in a way but honestly, you removing that destroys it. If it does keep the three potion/herbs.

Gooose26 wrote:{giant ass paragraph}

Whole-heartedly agree on that
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Re: Florist [Town Protective]

Postby Gooose26 » Wed Oct 16, 2019 10:22 pm

JacksonVirgo wrote:The herb options is what gave the role somewhat of an iotre of uniquness from other TP roles. I like the concept of a PM or a town version of a pm in a way but honestly, you removing that destroys it. If it does keep the three potion/herbs.

I agree that I'm sort of trashing on the role, but I'm coming from the perspective that balance isn't easy. I've been around TG for longer than I can remember to be honest, and there's a reason that has really ever suggested a solid Town Protective role: The alignment is simply too basic to work with. Doctor is 100% balanced, but the issue is that every single Protective role that follows is a Doctor with distorted mechanics. It has lead to a massive hole in role diversity, and it seems too difficult to find a rope big enough to climb out of it.
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Re: Florist [Town Protective]

Postby azurillia » Fri Oct 18, 2019 10:56 am

Yeah I edited the post
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Re: Florist [Town Protective]

Postby azurillia » Fri Oct 18, 2019 1:52 pm

@JacksonVirgo The point about Coven Expansion is they gave a new samples and ideas to create new roles. Trapper might sound stupid but it is one of the least complained roles in that expansion. Furthermore, it is not that unbalanced. If you reveal where the trap as, evils will just avoid it. If you don't, there is a higher chance that you will trap a Town member. The power of trapper lies on Town Power roles; they can easily whisper where did they leave the trap and makes the game almost impossible to win for evils.

@Gooose26 You got a point about alignment; It belongs to Support. PM was supposed to be Coven Support but they changed it to Coven Evil for aesthetical reasons. I am gonna write about it tomorrow because I am tired now. You can check the whole post now.
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Re: Florist [Town Protective]

Postby JacksonVirgo » Fri Oct 18, 2019 5:28 pm

Trapper is a broken TP, It's terribly unbalanced lol
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