Fixing TP/LO d1 meta

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Fixing TP/LO d1 meta

Postby sheeplycow » Fri Oct 04, 2019 7:03 am

I thought of a relatively simple change that keeps the game playing how it normally would but stops jailor claiming d1, as I think this is the most unhealthy part of the game with LO instantly confirming so many town, with escort and spy.

Nerf: Jailor can't be healed

Now it is pretty drastic that you can't protect the jailor anymore, but it puts them in the position of wanting to hide and not wanting to claim so you don't get the same TP/LO on jailor every game. Maybe allow BG or the other way around similar to mayor, or not allow either and it could be thematically because they're in the jail at night and so can't be protected.

Mafia would probably play out similar low elo, but have a far higher WR in high elo and most importantly games aren't just instantly over when a LO confirms half the town n1 which is just not fun for either team.

I just wanted a change that keeps the essence of the game and not have so many really short and dull games.

Any thoughts?
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Re: Fixing TP/LO d1 meta

Postby LairesTheUnscaled » Fri Oct 04, 2019 1:22 pm

Moving Ambusher from Coven expansion to the pool of Mafia Killing roles in Ranked and Ranked Practice. Mafia would have Mafioso OR Ambusher, but town wouldn't be able to know which from the start of a game. Ambusher targets same person your GF targets unless they get roleblocked, just like Mafioso.

This would make TP/LO jailors regret their decision of coming up day 1. When you want to finally kill Jailor after killing few TPs/LOs, your Ambusher starts playing like jester/exe. They get killed or jailed or roleblocked during the night so your GF can target Jailor and kill him with his Mafioso-like attack.

Issue I have with this idea is that Investigator results would need to be changed for non-coven results from (Vigi, Vet, Mafioso) to (Vigi, Vet, Mafioso, Ambusher), similar for Consigliere. Don't know if that's a big complication, but secondly I don't think developers would want to add premium content to non-premium users. Some people might question why did they buy the expansion if some roles get added to Non-coven anyway.
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Re: Fixing TP/LO d1 meta

Postby Brilliand » Fri Oct 04, 2019 6:06 pm

LairesTheUnscaled wrote:Moving Ambusher from Coven expansion to the pool of Mafia Killing roles in Ranked and Ranked Practice. Mafia would have Mafioso OR Ambusher, but town wouldn't be able to know which from the start of a game. Ambusher targets same person your GF targets unless they get roleblocked, just like Mafioso.

This would make TP/LO jailors regret their decision of coming up day 1. When you want to finally kill Jailor after killing few TPs/LOs, your Ambusher starts playing like jester/exe. They get killed or jailed or roleblocked during the night so your GF can target Jailor and kill him with his Mafioso-like attack.


If the Ambusher continues to work the way it is now, it can't counter the TP/LO meta because it will be immediately outed if it visits a player with multiple townie visitors (even if it kills the Lookout, the Doctor will know who the Ambusher is).
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Re: Fixing TP/LO d1 meta

Postby LairesTheUnscaled » Sat Oct 05, 2019 11:41 am

Brilliand wrote:If the Ambusher continues to work the way it is now, it can't counter the TP/LO meta because it will be immediately outed if it visits a player with multiple townie visitors (even if it kills the Lookout, the Doctor will know who the Ambusher is).

Well, honestly I'm f2p user, so I just assumed how Ambusher works instead of actually ever playing him, so you are probably right about that.

Other way to counter this meta I'm thinking right now is making Arso not appear in LO results or if you douse your target, one of the players who visit them gets doused too, at random, but you will know as arsonist who you doused. So you could get potentially 2 douses per night, if you keep visiting people that are likely to be visited by other players, and you can fake Lookout then as Arsonist which would be still very hard, but at least you could claim something believable when that smirky Investigator outs you as BG, GF, Arsonist.

Maybe some form of comic book could "explain" these weird looking nerfs/buffs by a storyteller, just like why Doctor cant heal Mayor because Mayor doesn't believe in Doctors healing methods and instead trusts Bodyguard to defend him, that's how updates could look like to be appealing to "casual" players while explaining every change in detail for more experienced players. Something like that I would like to see, but that's a bit off topic.
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Re: Fixing TP/LO d1 meta

Postby JacksonVirgo » Sat Oct 05, 2019 12:17 pm

LairesTheUnscaled wrote:Well, honestly I'm f2p user, so I just assumed how Ambusher works instead of actually ever playing him, so you are probably right about that.


Ambusher kills one of your targets visitors and tells everyone that visited your target that you are the ambusher. That's bad if multiple people visit the Jailor call as the MK is instantly outted.

LairesTheUnscaled wrote:Other way to counter this meta I'm thinking right now is making Arso not appear in LO results or if you douse your target, one of the players who visit them gets doused too, at random, but you will know as arsonist who you doused. So you could get potentially 2 douses per night, if you keep visiting people that are likely to be visited by other players, and you can fake Lookout then as Arsonist which would be still very hard, but at least you could claim something believable when that smirky Investigator outs you as BG, GF, Arsonist.


I personally feel that's too swingy, but could work I guess.

LairesTheUnscaled wrote:Maybe some form of comic book could "explain" these weird looking nerfs/buffs by a storyteller, just like why Doctor cant heal Mayor because Mayor doesn't believe in Doctors healing methods and instead trusts Bodyguard to defend him, that's how updates could look like to be appealing to "casual" players while explaining every change in detail for more experienced players. Something like that I would like to see, but that's a bit off topic.

I thought the Doctor lore was that the Mayor cut funding to the doctor and the doctor swore to never heal the Mayor?
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Re: Fixing TP/LO d1 meta

Postby LairesTheUnscaled » Sat Oct 05, 2019 12:35 pm

I thought the Doctor lore was that the Mayor cut funding to the doctor and the doctor swore to never heal the Mayor?

I just looked it up. We are both right on this.

"With many years of training with surgical precision and bio-medical research as a combat medic, the Doctor is an innovative surgeon skilled in healing even the most traumatic of injuries in just a single night. When he retired into a humble life as Salem's local physician, the Mayor immediately accuses the Doctor for possible association with witchcraft due to his miraculous ability to heal himself in critical condition and banishes him out of fear that the Doctor is secretly planting a curse on the his patients. As he is forced into exile, he swore to never heal the Mayor for his corrupt accusations. Years later, rumors of murder in Salem were spreading and the Doctor now swears to come back to Salem and secretly check up on potential targets of murder, even if it costs him his life."
source - https://town-of-salem.fandom.com/wiki/Custom_Stories
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Re: Fixing TP/LO d1 meta

Postby azurillia » Wed Oct 09, 2019 9:13 am

How about removing both Jailor and Spy from game ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

I do not like the D1 Jailor TPLO meta either. The only solution is rEmOvInG tHe JaIlOr FrOm GaMe or creating a mafia lookout role (at this case they would be better than Consigliere since you will learn all of TP names xdddd)
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Re: Fixing TP/LO d1 meta

Postby JacksonVirgo » Wed Oct 09, 2019 9:21 am

azurillia wrote:How about removing both Jailor and Spy from game ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

I do not like the D1 Jailor TPLO meta either. The only solution is rEmOvInG tHe JaIlOr FrOm GaMe or creating a mafia lookout role (at this case they would be better than Consigliere since you will learn all of TP names xdddd)


If Mafioso was replaced with an Ambusher like role and the Godfather can attack like Mafioso, with only one being able to kill each night. It'd destroy the meta, or at least if it doesn't, free TP deaths boyo.
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Re: Fixing TP/LO d1 meta

Postby LairesTheUnscaled » Wed Oct 09, 2019 11:23 am

I also agree Lookout should be LOOKED at. (see what I did there?)
Lookout is too strong. There is no Mafia role that mirrors it, no evil role that had ability Lookout has, so it's nearly impossible to fake. I would replace Forger for Mafia Lookout role if Spy doesn't get changed or removed. There are tons of options for BMG to do with the game. Let's just hope they do something quickly.
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Re: Fixing TP/LO d1 meta

Postby Brilliand » Wed Oct 09, 2019 12:12 pm

JacksonVirgo wrote:
azurillia wrote:How about removing both Jailor and Spy from game ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

I do not like the D1 Jailor TPLO meta either. The only solution is rEmOvInG tHe JaIlOr FrOm GaMe or creating a mafia lookout role (at this case they would be better than Consigliere since you will learn all of TP names xdddd)


If Mafioso was replaced with an Ambusher like role and the Godfather can attack like Mafioso, with only one being able to kill each night. It'd destroy the meta, or at least if it doesn't, free TP deaths boyo.


Only if the "All visitors of your target will learn your name" mechanic of the Ambusher is removed. With that, this arrangement just results in a TP being traded for a Mafia member early on.
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Re: Fixing TP/LO d1 meta

Postby azurillia » Wed Oct 09, 2019 12:37 pm

Brilliand wrote:Quotes and long texts so I edit this part




The reason ambusher has a reveal drawback is cuz they can increase the KPN of mafia

Current ToS version: Mafioso/GF attacks
No MK roles, someone is promoted to Mafioso
Ambusher performs their ability, increases KPN with the cost of being lynched by %?? (i would say 50)

Why attacking the visitors of Jailor if you would target someone else? Watcher (Mafia Lookout) has been added to TG a long time ago and they approved it (it would be added next update i think)

Regarding the fact that Jailor has always been a keystone to Town win, I accept that Town roles shouldn't visit a confirmed role and then confirmed by Lookout (or simply healing the most powerful role) but what you gonna do, removing the visits? I am fine with Mafia Lookout option.
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Re: Fixing TP/LO d1 meta

Postby Soulshade55r » Fri Oct 11, 2019 6:34 pm

Should be a Ne that can block non killing visits. :^)

Arso kinda is the only thing that can counter jailor meta
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Re: Fixing TP/LO d1 meta

Postby azurillia » Sat Oct 12, 2019 2:09 am

Soulshade55r wrote:Should be a Ne that can block non killing visits. :^)

Arso kinda is the only thing that can counter jailor meta


There is a role in TG that does what you're saying

There must be a drawback for all Town roles if they are focusing to only one player in game. I said it billion times and saying it again; Create a Mafia lookout role (Watcher). That's it. You guys are still talking the same subject for like a month
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Re: Fixing TP/LO d1 meta

Postby JacksonVirgo » Sat Oct 12, 2019 3:20 am

azurillia wrote:
Soulshade55r wrote:Should be a Ne that can block non killing visits. :^)

Arso kinda is the only thing that can counter jailor meta


There is a role in TG that does what you're saying

There must be a drawback for all Town roles if they are focusing to only one player in game. I said it billion times and saying it again; Create a Mafia lookout role (Watcher). That's it. You guys are still talking the same subject for like a month


There's nothing bad about brainstorming/suggesting different types of ways to fix an issue.
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