Coven Charmer

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Coven Charmer

Postby ak521 » Mon Sep 30, 2019 10:03 am

Role Name: Charmer

Role Alignment: Coven Evil

Special Attributes:
Attack: Basic
Defense: None

Abilities: Charm a player each night, forcing them to visit you that night.

Attributes:
  • Charming the same target two times delivers a Basic Attack to them.
  • Charmed targets will not know they were charmed.
  • With the Necronomicon you deliver a Basic Attack to every target. Your visits become Astral.

Goal: Kill all who would oppose the Coven.

Notifications:
  • You have decided to charm <x> tonight.
  • You instead decided to charm <y> tonight.
  • You have changed your mind.
  • <Z> died last night. They were killed by the Charmer.
  • You were seduced by a Charmer! You have died!

Additional Info:
Investigator Results:
Your target could be a Framer, Vampire, Jester, Hex Master, or Charmer.

Sheriff Results:
(without Necronomicon) Your target is suspicious.
Last edited by ak521 on Thu May 14, 2020 3:20 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: Coven Charmer

Postby Brilliand » Mon Sep 30, 2019 2:06 pm

It's pretty much a nerfed Coven Leader?
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Re: Coven Charmer

Postby ak521 » Tue Oct 01, 2019 4:31 pm

Not entirely for the main fact that Charmed targets are unaware that they were charmed.

Basically helps evils out a lot and has TI second-guess themselves.
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Re: Coven Charmer

Postby ak521 » Tue Oct 01, 2019 4:31 pm

Brilliand wrote:It's pretty much a nerfed Coven Leader?

above
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Re: Coven Charmer

Postby ImposterK » Wed Oct 02, 2019 7:12 am

ak521 wrote:Not entirely for the main fact that Charmed targets are unaware that they were charmed.

Basically helps evils out a lot and has TI second-guess themselves.

I feel like this is too similar to the Coven Leader to be its own role. Also, this role can't kill without the necronomicon while every other role can.
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Re: Coven Charmer

Postby JacksonVirgo » Wed Oct 02, 2019 7:18 am

ImposterK wrote:
ak521 wrote:Not entirely for the main fact that Charmed targets are unaware that they were charmed.

Basically helps evils out a lot and has TI second-guess themselves.

I feel like this is too similar to the Coven Leader to be its own role. Also, this role can't kill without the necronomicon while every other role can.


Coven Leader can't either, giving another reason why this is too similar to the CL lol

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Re: Coven Charmer

Postby ImposterK » Wed Oct 02, 2019 11:02 am

JacksonVirgo wrote:
ImposterK wrote:
ak521 wrote:Not entirely for the main fact that Charmed targets are unaware that they were charmed.

Basically helps evils out a lot and has TI second-guess themselves.

I feel like this is too similar to the Coven Leader to be its own role. Also, this role can't kill without the necronomicon while every other role can.


Coven Leader can't either, giving another reason why this is too similar to the CL lol

Coven Leader can kill with Vigilante and can also force players to visit the Medusa.
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Re: Coven Charmer

Postby ak521 » Mon Oct 14, 2019 7:45 pm

ImposterK wrote:
JacksonVirgo wrote:
ImposterK wrote:
ak521 wrote:Not entirely for the main fact that Charmed targets are unaware that they were charmed.

Basically helps evils out a lot and has TI second-guess themselves.

I feel like this is too similar to the Coven Leader to be its own role. Also, this role can't kill without the necronomicon while every other role can.


Coven Leader can't either, giving another reason why this is too similar to the CL lol

Coven Leader can kill with Vigilante and can also force players to visit the Medusa.

Updated.

Now uses their ability on themselves and receives notifications.
e.g. Vigilante would shoot Charmer and themselves.
e.g. Escort would attempt roleblock the charmer and themselves
e.g. Jailor would be roleblocked.
e.g. Investigator investigates Charmer, Charmer would receive Invest/consig/mayor notification.
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Re: Coven Charmer

Postby ak521 » Sun Nov 10, 2019 11:33 am

ImposterK wrote:
JacksonVirgo wrote:
ImposterK wrote:
ak521 wrote:Not entirely for the main fact that Charmed targets are unaware that they were charmed.

Basically helps evils out a lot and has TI second-guess themselves.

I feel like this is too similar to the Coven Leader to be its own role. Also, this role can't kill without the necronomicon while every other role can.


Coven Leader can't either, giving another reason why this is too similar to the CL lol

Coven Leader can kill with Vigilante and can also force players to visit the Medusa.


Updated once again. Should now be a significantly better role.
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Re: Coven Charmer

Postby Brilliand » Sun Nov 10, 2019 4:40 pm

ak521 wrote:Updated once again. Should now be a significantly better role.


Now it permablocks players, and can have multiple players permablocked at once? That's kind of crazy.

Though in the gamemode that has Tracker, there is still significant counterplay, so... maybe that's not a problem. On the flip side, there's still the problem that this role still has no ability to kill without the Necronomicon (although I suppose you could argue that being permablocked is sort of like death).
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Re: Coven Charmer

Postby ak521 » Fri Jan 17, 2020 9:33 pm

It's not supposed to be able to kill in the first place, and permablocked players don't know they're being blocked. And it's every other night starting N2 so I would really consider that no more than 2-3 players a game. When the Charmer dies, the ties are broken (as they can't visit them any more!)
Control immune players can void this and the Charmer won't know they were immune to their ability.
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Re: Coven Charmer

Postby ak521 » Thu May 14, 2020 3:21 pm

Brilliand wrote:
ak521 wrote:Updated once again. Should now be a significantly better role.


Now it permablocks players, and can have multiple players permablocked at once? That's kind of crazy.

Though in the gamemode that has Tracker, there is still significant counterplay, so... maybe that's not a problem. On the flip side, there's still the problem that this role still has no ability to kill without the Necronomicon (although I suppose you could argue that being permablocked is sort of like death).

Reverted to initial version with a buff.
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Re: Coven Charmer

Postby KAKERMAN23 » Fri May 15, 2020 7:37 am

this is basically just hex master and coven leader combined. i don't think this is a good role, sorry.
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Re: Coven Charmer

Postby Crona111 » Fri May 15, 2020 11:07 pm

ak521 wrote:Role Name: Charmer

Role Alignment: Coven Evil

Special Attributes:
Attack: Basic
Defense: None

Abilities: Charm a player each night, forcing them to visit you that night.

Attributes:
  • Charming the same target two times delivers a Basic Attack to them.
  • Charmed targets will not know they were charmed.
  • With the Necronomicon you deliver a Basic Attack to every target. Your visits become Astral.

Goal: Kill all who would oppose the Coven.

Notifications:
  • You have decided to charm <x> tonight.
  • You instead decided to charm <y> tonight.
  • You have changed your mind.
  • <Z> died last night. They were killed by the Charmer.
  • You were seduced by a Charmer! You have died!

Additional Info:
Investigator Results:
Your target could be a Framer, Vampire, Jester, Hex Master, or Charmer.

Sheriff Results:
(without Necronomicon) Your target is suspicious.


I think it's a good idea and concept, but in my opinion it lacks any real impact for the Coven. All it can do is mess with TI, and maybe get a TP to watch you, but that's it.
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Re: Coven Charmer

Postby ak521 » Sat May 16, 2020 12:51 pm

Crona111 wrote:
ak521 wrote:Role Name: Charmer

Role Alignment: Coven Evil

Special Attributes:
Attack: Basic
Defense: None

Abilities: Charm a player each night, forcing them to visit you that night.

Attributes:
  • Charming the same target two times delivers a Basic Attack to them.
  • Charmed targets will not know they were charmed.
  • With the Necronomicon you deliver a Basic Attack to every target. Your visits become Astral.

Goal: Kill all who would oppose the Coven.

Notifications:
  • You have decided to charm <x> tonight.
  • You instead decided to charm <y> tonight.
  • You have changed your mind.
  • <Z> died last night. They were killed by the Charmer.
  • You were seduced by a Charmer! You have died!

Additional Info:
Investigator Results:
Your target could be a Framer, Vampire, Jester, Hex Master, or Charmer.

Sheriff Results:
(without Necronomicon) Your target is suspicious.


I think it's a good idea and concept, but in my opinion it lacks any real impact for the Coven. All it can do is mess with TI, and maybe get a TP to watch you, but that's it.

You are forgetting the impact this role has on every other evil as well as MANY other town roles.
Evils claiming TP: I visited jailor. LO says I didnt? I was probably charmed.
(w/ my new addition of killing, the real TP may go on that evil)
Evils claiming TI: Target is suspicious. Oh they were innocent? I was probably charmed.
(w/ my new addition of killing, the real TP may go on that evil)
Escort: I roleblocked X last night. They weren't roleblocked? I was probably charmed.
Vigilante: I shot X last night. They were immune. Oh they weren't? I was probably charmed.
Sheriff: I visited X last night. They were suspicious. Oh they weren't? I was probably charmed.
Investigator: I visited X last night. They came up as Fr/Vam/Jes/HexM/Charm. They were innocent? They were either hexed or I was charmed.
With my addition of killing, this causes townies to think twice about what happened and forces LO and doctors to switch targets.

The role has so much potential, or at least I believe it to be so. In my eyes, it'll be the most OP coven random.
It causes so much chaos and confusion, with the spy being the only direct counter.

EDIT (1): People will have to see TIs will and then think, were they charmed? Causing a whole new playstyle. A TI finding someone suspicious who really is and NOT charmer may end up being seen as "charmed" and a Random Coven can utilize this (for example PM) to visit a TI and make them second-guess their results (if there is a spy in the game).
Last edited by ak521 on Sat May 16, 2020 12:59 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Coven Charmer

Postby ak521 » Sat May 16, 2020 12:55 pm

KAKERMAN23 wrote:this is basically just hex master and coven leader combined. i don't think this is a good role, sorry.

Above.
Kind of what you said is true, it is in fact more of the OPPOSITE of hex master. Instead of making a target suspicious you make a target visit yourself, a suspicious role. This makes it more powerful than Hex Master as you see who TIs are and can abuse them. It can also be played similarly to a Consort, charming the TP and having coven kill jailor.

The role is simple and yet has a lot of potential. It will be fun to play and will allow Coven players to have much more strategy.
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Re: Coven Charmer

Postby Crona111 » Sat May 16, 2020 3:28 pm

ak521 wrote:
Crona111 wrote:
ak521 wrote:Role Name: Charmer

Role Alignment: Coven Evil

Special Attributes:
Attack: Basic
Defense: None

Abilities: Charm a player each night, forcing them to visit you that night.

Attributes:
  • Charming the same target two times delivers a Basic Attack to them.
  • Charmed targets will not know they were charmed.
  • With the Necronomicon you deliver a Basic Attack to every target. Your visits become Astral.

Goal: Kill all who would oppose the Coven.

Notifications:
  • You have decided to charm <x> tonight.
  • You instead decided to charm <y> tonight.
  • You have changed your mind.
  • <Z> died last night. They were killed by the Charmer.
  • You were seduced by a Charmer! You have died!

Additional Info:
Investigator Results:
Your target could be a Framer, Vampire, Jester, Hex Master, or Charmer.

Sheriff Results:
(without Necronomicon) Your target is suspicious.


I think it's a good idea and concept, but in my opinion it lacks any real impact for the Coven. All it can do is mess with TI, and maybe get a TP to watch you, but that's it.

You are forgetting the impact this role has on every other evil as well as MANY other town roles.
Evils claiming TP: I visited jailor. LO says I didnt? I was probably charmed.
(w/ my new addition of killing, the real TP may go on that evil)
Evils claiming TI: Target is suspicious. Oh they were innocent? I was probably charmed.
(w/ my new addition of killing, the real TP may go on that evil)
Escort: I roleblocked X last night. They weren't roleblocked? I was probably charmed.
Vigilante: I shot X last night. They were immune. Oh they weren't? I was probably charmed.
Sheriff: I visited X last night. They were suspicious. Oh they weren't? I was probably charmed.
Investigator: I visited X last night. They came up as Fr/Vam/Jes/HexM/Charm. They were innocent? They were either hexed or I was charmed.
With my addition of killing, this causes townies to think twice about what happened and forces LO and doctors to switch targets.

The role has so much potential, or at least I believe it to be so. In my eyes, it'll be the most OP coven random.
It causes so much chaos and confusion, with the spy being the only direct counter.

EDIT (1): People will have to see TIs will and then think, were they charmed? Causing a whole new playstyle. A TI finding someone suspicious who really is and NOT charmer may end up being seen as "charmed" and a Random Coven can utilize this (for example PM) to visit a TI and make them second-guess their results (if there is a spy in the game).


All this really does is out the charmer though, not only making this role more like a framer/bmer in the terms of deception, but all it'll do is confirm a RC role, confirm Townies (as long as tracker, spy, lookout exists). Also why would Coven want a way to help other Evils? They dont win with them, so it's a detriment to the coven overall. Also, once somebody sees that "they were killed by charmer", but CV is alive, it means that yeah whatever will they had the night before was charmed, so even if it's not revealed by others, it'll be revealed by itself. It doesn't do much overall, especially late game.
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Re: Coven Charmer

Postby ak521 » Sat May 16, 2020 3:35 pm

Crona111 wrote:
ak521 wrote:
Crona111 wrote:
ak521 wrote:Role Name: Charmer

Role Alignment: Coven Evil

Special Attributes:
Attack: Basic
Defense: None

Abilities: Charm a player each night, forcing them to visit you that night.

Attributes:
  • Charming the same target two times delivers a Basic Attack to them.
  • Charmed targets will not know they were charmed.
  • With the Necronomicon you deliver a Basic Attack to every target. Your visits become Astral.

Goal: Kill all who would oppose the Coven.

Notifications:
  • You have decided to charm <x> tonight.
  • You instead decided to charm <y> tonight.
  • You have changed your mind.
  • <Z> died last night. They were killed by the Charmer.
  • You were seduced by a Charmer! You have died!

Additional Info:
Investigator Results:
Your target could be a Framer, Vampire, Jester, Hex Master, or Charmer.

Sheriff Results:
(without Necronomicon) Your target is suspicious.


I think it's a good idea and concept, but in my opinion it lacks any real impact for the Coven. All it can do is mess with TI, and maybe get a TP to watch you, but that's it.

You are forgetting the impact this role has on every other evil as well as MANY other town roles.
Evils claiming TP: I visited jailor. LO says I didnt? I was probably charmed.
(w/ my new addition of killing, the real TP may go on that evil)
Evils claiming TI: Target is suspicious. Oh they were innocent? I was probably charmed.
(w/ my new addition of killing, the real TP may go on that evil)
Escort: I roleblocked X last night. They weren't roleblocked? I was probably charmed.
Vigilante: I shot X last night. They were immune. Oh they weren't? I was probably charmed.
Sheriff: I visited X last night. They were suspicious. Oh they weren't? I was probably charmed.
Investigator: I visited X last night. They came up as Fr/Vam/Jes/HexM/Charm. They were innocent? They were either hexed or I was charmed.
With my addition of killing, this causes townies to think twice about what happened and forces LO and doctors to switch targets.

The role has so much potential, or at least I believe it to be so. In my eyes, it'll be the most OP coven random.
It causes so much chaos and confusion, with the spy being the only direct counter.

EDIT (1): People will have to see TIs will and then think, were they charmed? Causing a whole new playstyle. A TI finding someone suspicious who really is and NOT charmer may end up being seen as "charmed" and a Random Coven can utilize this (for example PM) to visit a TI and make them second-guess their results (if there is a spy in the game).


All this really does is out the charmer though, not only making this role more like a framer/bmer in the terms of deception, but all it'll do is confirm a RC role, confirm Townies (as long as tracker, spy, lookout exists). Also why would Coven want a way to help other Evils? They dont win with them, so it's a detriment to the coven overall. Also, once somebody sees that "they were killed by charmer", but CV is alive, it means that yeah whatever will they had the night before was charmed, so even if it's not revealed by others, it'll be revealed by itself. It doesn't do much overall, especially late game.

Town has majority throughout the first few nights and generally smart towns are able to retain majorities. This causes evils to work together for the first 3-4 nights (especially prevalent in Ranked). Coven will know who and who isnt lying about being charmed based on who the charmer visited.
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Re: Coven Charmer

Postby Crona111 » Sat May 16, 2020 3:41 pm

This causes evils to work together, yes, but this can potentially confirm other evils, meaning Coven has no real way of killing said evil, other than HM due to every other NK having basic+ defense.
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Re: Coven Charmer

Postby Brilliand » Sat May 16, 2020 5:20 pm

Crona111 wrote:This causes evils to work together, yes, but this can potentially confirm other evils, meaning Coven has no real way of killing said evil, other than HM due to every other NK having basic+ defense.


Medusa has a Powerful attack, and Coven Leader can send one NK to kill another (several NKs have a Powerful or better attack).

Even so, Coven isn't really supposed be able to kill NKs at night - that's the whole point of the Basic Defense. If the Coven needs to deal with an NK, they're supposed to do it by lynching (either with Town's help, or by getting majority).
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Re: Coven Charmer

Postby Crona111 » Sat May 16, 2020 5:29 pm

Brilliand wrote:
Crona111 wrote:This causes evils to work together, yes, but this can potentially confirm other evils, meaning Coven has no real way of killing said evil, other than HM due to every other NK having basic+ defense.


Medusa has a Powerful attack, and Coven Leader can send one NK to kill another (several NKs have a Powerful or better attack).

Even so, Coven isn't really supposed be able to kill NKs at night - that's the whole point of the Basic Defense. If the Coven needs to deal with an NK, they're supposed to do it by lynching (either with Town's help, or by getting majority).


That's my point too. This role goes against that by potentially confirming Evils, and making them appear as non coven if spy, changing invest results without them knowing.
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Re: Coven Charmer

Postby ak521 » Sun May 17, 2020 1:43 pm

Crona111 wrote:
Brilliand wrote:
Crona111 wrote:This causes evils to work together, yes, but this can potentially confirm other evils, meaning Coven has no real way of killing said evil, other than HM due to every other NK having basic+ defense.


Medusa has a Powerful attack, and Coven Leader can send one NK to kill another (several NKs have a Powerful or better attack).

Even so, Coven isn't really supposed be able to kill NKs at night - that's the whole point of the Basic Defense. If the Coven needs to deal with an NK, they're supposed to do it by lynching (either with Town's help, or by getting majority).


That's my point too. This role goes against that by potentially confirming Evils, and making them appear as non coven if spy, changing invest results without them knowing.

Lol he made an argument against you and you are like "Yes, my point."
Confirms evil by making them appear as non coven? I mean Charmer appears as Coven w/o Necronomicon.
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Re: Coven Charmer

Postby Crona111 » Sun May 17, 2020 1:53 pm

ak521 wrote:
Crona111 wrote:
Brilliand wrote:
Crona111 wrote:This causes evils to work together, yes, but this can potentially confirm other evils, meaning Coven has no real way of killing said evil, other than HM due to every other NK having basic+ defense.


Medusa has a Powerful attack, and Coven Leader can send one NK to kill another (several NKs have a Powerful or better attack).

Even so, Coven isn't really supposed be able to kill NKs at night - that's the whole point of the Basic Defense. If the Coven needs to deal with an NK, they're supposed to do it by lynching (either with Town's help, or by getting majority).


That's my point too. This role goes against that by potentially confirming Evils, and making them appear as non coven if spy, changing invest results without them knowing.

Lol he made an argument against you and you are like "Yes, my point."
Confirms evil by making them appear as non coven? I mean Charmer appears as Coven w/o Necronomicon.


He made a point against me that also simultaneously works with my point. I'm going to drop this here because you dont seem to be reading much at this point and just saying "lol no"
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Re: Coven Charmer

Postby Brilliand » Sun May 17, 2020 8:14 pm

I don't think the Charmer would every be able to "confirm" that an NK is a Townie. If the Charmer exists, then the Town will know that it can exist, so they'll probably consider the possibility that the person who was "confirmed" (in whatever way the Charmer confirms people) was "confirmed" by the Charmer.

That being said I'm not really clear on how the Charmer confirms people.
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Re: Coven Charmer

Postby ak521 » Sun May 17, 2020 9:54 pm

Brilliand wrote:I don't think the Charmer would every be able to "confirm" that an NK is a Townie. If the Charmer exists, then the Town will know that it can exist, so they'll probably consider the possibility that the person who was "confirmed" (in whatever way the Charmer confirms people) was "confirmed" by the Charmer.

That being said I'm not really clear on how the Charmer confirms people.

I generalized Evils in a previous post about how they can use Charmer as an excuse, much like Framer. So he thought I meant NK, but evils are Coven, Mafia, Vampires, Neutral Evils, Neutral Chaos, and Neutral Killing. And what you said is true, but the Charmer can't really confirm people without the Necronomicon. It can only provide an excuse or act like a Framer (or a killing role if it really desires with 0.5 KPN)
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