[Megathread] Neutral Killing Overhaul

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[Megathread] Neutral Killing Overhaul

Postby rickienon » Sat Sep 21, 2019 1:11 pm

I am the Queen of this site, and I got the mastermind of a role player. I will show my opinions about NK's that needs totally rework because these roles got lowest win rate in game and they don't have an information to get (faking a role or will).

    ● The problem with all Neutral Killing roles is they do not have an "information source" to get and fake a will. Blackmailer would be a perfect example for this because they can fake as Spy by copying their mafia members' visit on their will and can get caught if one of members were controlled and/or targets were transported, which would expose Blackmailer but at the end of day it is a role that can "fake" as someone else. I can safely say that even they do not use their ability, Town can realize what is going on if their bugs are meaningless. Another example would be is Witch; you can "learn" of your target's role and can win with very large player pool but it comes with a huge drawback. But like Blackmailer, they can even win if they claim something other than LO at early game (to prevent investigator). You can't give an "information source" to a role like Serial Killer but you may create something different like; Can Arsonist learn the roles that visited their douse target? Or can Serial Killer create a fake "healing message"?
    ● Having a Basic defense (Night immunity) isn't something that comes with a huge drawback; Almost all of NK's die by jailor execute or trial lynch (which both of these ignore defense + Lynching is of course happens more often)
    ● Giving them a second ability or a passive ability that they can figure out what roles are present right now (or what roles would appear on their visits) would be enough to buff them; Arsonist can already manipulate investigation results but not like Hex Master. For me, Hex Master is more balanced -and of course, way way better- without Necromonicon because it doesn't alert players with killing until last moment + They can also change Sheriff results. If you are playing a role for a team, you must at least counter three or two different roles with your manipulation (Framer is an exception). Ignoring the fact that Witch can support evils; If you are playing as a NK role, you are probably alone and doesn't have anyone to back you up. At this point, you must get people's trust at early game which comes to the same point; you don't have an information source to make people believe you. This is also admissible for Framer, Disguiser and Forger, which all of them needs a rework from the beginning.
    ● If there is a role in the game which is unbalanced, you do not buff other roles to get their status same with that role. That applies for NKs too; All Town Power roles are unbalanced in some way (except for Mayor), and all of them needs a rework but not the way the NK's would get.


Lines that written this way are up to discussion and/or ideas that would be applicable.

Arsonist:
Role Name: Arsonist
Role Alignment: Neutral Killing
Immunities: Special (see below) Attack, Basic Defense
Summary: An arsonist who douses the entire town to see them burn
Priority: 3 (Douse) 5 (Ignite) 4 (Clearing the douse) 6 (Investigation Result)


Abilities: Douse a player each Night.
Revisit a doused player again to douse their visitors.
Choose yourself at Night to ignite your doused targets with Unstoppable Attack and your visitors with Basic Attack for that night with.
You may take no action at Night to clean the douse from yourself.
You will know who were doused for that Night.


Attributes: Doused players have the same investigation result as Arsonist.
- You will get a list about who were doused at the end of Night, just like Plaguebearer.
- If a Transporter transports your target with yourself, you will Ignite your doused targets instead of dousing yourself. Same rule goes for ignition; If Transporter transports you with someone else while you are igniting, you will douse the transported player instead of igniting.

Investigator Results:
Sheriff - Your target is not suspicious.
Investigator - Your target could be a Bodyguard, Godfather, Arsonist, Crusader.
Consigliere - Your target wants to see everyone burn. They must be the Arsonist!


Goal: Arsonist Win


Win Conditions: Current Arsonist win conditions


Personal Notes: Arsonist now can see the doused targets, so they can fake as Crusader or Bodyguard.
KPN is increased from 0.6~ to 1.3~ if all of the buffs are applied in current simulator. Visitor igniting should be restricted to Basic Attack to keep a balance between other NKs

Serial Killer:
Role Name: Serial Killer
Role Alignment: Neutral Killing
Immunities: Basic Attack, Basic Defense
Summary: A psychopath that wants everyone to die
Priority: 5 (Direct targeting or house killing), 5 (Lowest, killer killing)


Abilities: Attack a player each Night.
If you stay in home at Night, you will deal a Basic attack to a random visitor.
If you are roleblocked, you will stay at home and deal a Basic attack to a random visitor.
If your target was already attacked that Night, you will deal a Basic attack to their attacker (if they visited).



Attributes: Specific messages for roleblockers are removed.
If you are jailed and Jailor didn't execute you, you will deal a Basic attack to one of your visitors that tried to visit you in jail. If there is no visitor, you will attack to the Jailor. Jailor won't get any message about if they were killed by jailed Serial Killer or not.



Investigator Results:
Sheriff - Your target is suspicious.
Investigator - Your target could be a Sheriff, Executioner or Serial Killer. (see below for more details about that.)
Consigliere - Your target wants everyone to die. They must be the Serial Killer!


Goal: Serial Killer Win


Win Conditions: Current Serial Killer win conditions


Personal Notes: Nerfed the Jailor with this way.
Switch the results between Serial Killer and Werewolf. Sheriff claim is more useful for SK while Doctor claim fits better to WW (think logically, if a WW stays at home, they can claim they were selfhealed)


Werewolf:
Gonna put people's though to this section. I think WW is fine except for investigation result (which I explained in SK spoiler section).

Last edited by rickienon on Sun Sep 22, 2019 11:23 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: [Megathread] Neutral Killing Overhaul

Postby Brilliand » Sat Sep 21, 2019 5:59 pm

Your rep isn't good enough to run a megathread... I mean, you've actually made a bad impression so far.

I don't think we need a megathread for NK reworks anyway; they haven't been spammed like retri reworks have been. (The fact that you made this megthread for "all NKs" instead of one specific role supports this conclusion.)
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Re: [Megathread] Neutral Killing Overhaul

Postby JacksonVirgo » Sat Sep 21, 2019 10:08 pm

Disregarding your totally abhorrent personality, I will state my opinions on each of these, if you disregard everyones opinion again. I doubt anyone will reply to another post of yours with actual feedback.

The Arsonist rework is swingy, Neutral Killings should never be swingy (which is another thing I dislike about Werewolf). For a Neutral Chaos it's fine, not a Neutral Killing. Dousing visitors is again, too swingy and could either take douse on extra person or douse the entire town (exaggeration of course). Visitors getting a Basic attack is again, too powerful. Transporter thing makes sense for the dousing yourself, however Transporter CANNOT be able to stop Arsonist from dousing, that's a nerf not a buff. Also this doesn't stop the actual issue with the Arsonist, mafia/town killing your doused targets. So no, this is a bad suggested.

The Serial Killer rework fixes nothing but sure, why not. SK should be able to kill every night, reasons why they kill rbers. Attacking a random visitor when you stay home is fine, but you shouldn't be able to attack a random visitor when you're jailed. Just kill the Jailor
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Re: [Megathread] Neutral Killing Overhaul

Postby Soulshade55r » Tue Sep 24, 2019 3:14 am

Eh? Werewolf and arsonist totally need overhauls sk could do with some buffs Nk its generally designed around being hard to win which puts some people off just by design.

Arso and Ww feel like handicapped SK generally.
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