Sleuth (Town Investigative)

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Should this role be added?

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Sleuth (Town Investigative)

Postby ImposterK » Wed Sep 11, 2019 4:55 pm

Sleuth (Town Investigative)
A keen detective who questions people about their relations with others.

Abilities:
-Choose 2 people at night, questioning both of them.

Attributes:
-If either target has ever visited the other, you will be notified.

Other Information:
-If either target visits the other on the night you question them, you will still get the notification.

Investigative Results:
Sheriff: You cannot find evidence of wrongdoing. Your target seems innocent.
Investigator: Your target could be a Bodyguard, Godfather, Arsonist, Crusader, or Sleuth.
Consigliere: Your target organizes police lineups. They must be the Sleuth.

Notifications:
"You have decided to question Player1 tonight."
"Your targets have seen one another before."
"Your targets have had no interactions with one another."


Changelog:
9/20/19 - Added a poll.
Last edited by ImposterK on Fri Sep 20, 2019 10:08 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Sleuth (Town Investigative)

Postby Brilliand » Wed Sep 11, 2019 5:51 pm

It seems a bit weak to me? I'm having trouble coming up with situations where this role's information would be useful.
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Re: Sleuth (Town Investigative)

Postby ak521 » Wed Sep 11, 2019 6:39 pm

You need to add a more reliable source of information.

What if the target is jailed?
What if the target is transported?
Shouldn't there be no notification if there was no interaction (similar to the Lookout)?
For this weak of a role, why have it so hard to confirm? I can see this is a buff for evil roles, but for a Town Investigative, it is not logical to make it a quick-lynch claim.
Can they target themselves? What will happen..?

Furthermore, if one target is the Veteran, it only increases chances of the Sleuth's chance of hitting them.


I'd suggest a single notification if either, or both of the targets appear suspicious (similar to sheriff).
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Re: Sleuth (Town Investigative)

Postby ImposterK » Wed Sep 11, 2019 7:17 pm

Brilliand wrote:It seems a bit weak to me? I'm having trouble coming up with situations where this role's information would be useful.

Here's an example of how this would work. If Player1 is a Janitor claiming to be a Doctor, and they say they visited Player2 on the 1st night. The Sleuth can pick Player1 and Player2 as their targets and, if they get the feedback that neither target has visited the other, the Sleuth will know that Player1 is lying.

ak521 wrote:You need to add a more reliable source of information.

What if the target is jailed?
What if the target is transported?
Shouldn't there be no notification if there was no interaction (similar to the Lookout)?
For this weak of a role, why have it so hard to confirm? I can see this is a buff for evil roles, but for a Town Investigative, it is not logical to make it a quick-lynch claim.
Can they target themselves? What will happen..?

Furthermore, if one target is the Veteran, it only increases chances of the Sleuth's chance of hitting them.


I'd suggest a single notification if either, or both of the targets appear suspicious (similar to sheriff).

1. If a target is jailed, they will get the notification saying that their ability failed because one of their targets was in jail.
2. If a target is transported, the Sleuth's target will change to whoever the Transporter picked as their other target.
3. It doesn't really matter if they get a notification or not. Sheriff still gets results if the target isn't suspicious.
4. I don't think this role is as weak as you say. (Read the example I gave above.)
5. The Sleuth cannot target themselves unless a Transporter or Witch forces them to do so. (Which reminds me *no pun intended*, if the Sleuth is controlled by a Witch, their first target will be whoever the Witch chooses.) Since the Sleuth visits both of their targets, they will be given the notification that at least one of the targets has visited the other.
6. If you don't want to be killed by the Veteran, don't risk visiting them. If the Veteran is unknown and you get killed by them, that's bad luck.
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Re: Sleuth (Town Investigative)

Postby JacksonVirgo » Wed Sep 11, 2019 10:23 pm

This role seems to be situational at best. Gets weaker with each and every day.

Let us math, yay!

TLDR;
Assuming all 15 players can visit every day and two players die each day/night (Mafia, SK, lynch)
N1 - 14.28% chance either target visited the other at any point in game.
N2 - 30.9% chance either target visited the other at any point in game.
N3 - 50.9% chance either target visited the other at any point in game.

Explanation.
On Night 1. You have a 7.14% (1/14) chance that T1 (target 1) will visit your T2 (target 2) in addition to the same probability in reverse. The probability of either one of them to visit the other is 14.28% (2/14). Fairly low chance but if you do get this off, it's got some semi-direct information.

Night 2. There is a 8.33% (1/12) chance now that T1 will visit T2 and vice versa. Adding the probability that they visited on previous nights makes the probability of this role finding a visit at 30.9%. That's at Night 2, making results more and more useless.

Night 3. There is a 10% chance (1/10) that T1 and/or T2 visit each other. Making the total 50.9% that they see a visit. Do you see the problem here?
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Re: Sleuth (Town Investigative)

Postby ImposterK » Thu Sep 12, 2019 3:22 pm

JacksonVirgo wrote:This role seems to be situational at best. Gets weaker with each and every day.

Let us math, yay!

TLDR;
Assuming all 15 players can visit every day and two players die each day/night (Mafia, SK, lynch)
N1 - 14.28% chance either target visited the other at any point in game.
N2 - 30.9% chance either target visited the other at any point in game.
N3 - 50.9% chance either target visited the other at any point in game.

Explanation.
On Night 1. You have a 7.14% (1/14) chance that T1 (target 1) will visit your T2 (target 2) in addition to the same probability in reverse. The probability of either one of them to visit the other is 14.28% (2/14). Fairly low chance but if you do get this off, it's got some semi-direct information.

Night 2. There is a 8.33% (1/12) chance now that T1 will visit T2 and vice versa. Adding the probability that they visited on previous nights makes the probability of this role finding a visit at 30.9%. That's at Night 2, making results more and more useless.

Night 3. There is a 10% chance (1/10) that T1 and/or T2 visit each other. Making the total 50.9% that they see a visit. Do you see the problem here?

This role is not just situational. Every evildoer is going to claim to be a town role which means this role will always be helpful. When an evildoer claims that they visited someone when really they didn't, this role will be able to check for that. It isn't meant to be a protective role like Lookout and shouldn't be viewed as one.

Also, a skilled player isn't going to just be picking players at random. They're going to be looking at who players are claiming to visit and make their decision based on that.
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Re: Sleuth (Town Investigative)

Postby JacksonVirgo » Thu Sep 12, 2019 5:13 pm

I see where you are coming from now but it is still fairly situational.

EDIT 1: It won't even stop most fake claims to be completely honest. It won't threaten a Vigilante/Veteran claim as Mafioso/Godfather. Consort hangs onto Escorts anyway, the same as Consigliere's claim Investigator majority of the time. Framer and Disguiser can claim any role without much issue because they can visit without much happening. Neutral Killings would be hit HARD with this however and thus it's too strong against them but it would make this role a kill priority.

Town Protectives are already really easy to claim and they're powerful roles so it's a fine balance. This would make Town Protectives confirmable early and that's terrible.
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Re: Sleuth (Town Investigative)

Postby ImposterK » Thu Sep 12, 2019 7:09 pm

JacksonVirgo wrote:I see where you are coming from now but it is still fairly situational.

EDIT 1: It won't even stop most fake claims to be completely honest. It won't threaten a Vigilante/Veteran claim as Mafioso/Godfather. Consort hangs onto Escorts anyway, the same as Consigliere's claim Investigator majority of the time. Framer and Disguiser can claim any role without much issue because they can visit without much happening. Neutral Killings would be hit HARD with this however and thus it's too strong against them but it would make this role a kill priority.

Town Protectives are already really easy to claim and they're powerful roles so it's a fine balance. This would make Town Protectives confirmable early and that's terrible.

I still don't see how you think this is situational. Every single game, multiple evildoers are going to be accused and they are going to claim a role.

This role will stop most evildoers unless they claim a role that doesn't visit often/at all. There are only 3 claimable roles that fall under this category and they are Veteran, Vigilante, and Medium. Additionally, this role can find every Neutral Evil while other roles, such as Sheriff, cannot.

Framer and Disguiser are already weak roles so this could help that a little bit.

Lookout can already confirm Town Protectives and it's actually easier to do with Lookout since they only have to find the person being attacked.
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Re: Sleuth (Town Investigative)

Postby ak521 » Tue Sep 17, 2019 8:11 pm

I do like the idea, but it literally cripples the evil's role claim space. It'd be unreasonable to add to ToS because it's insanely hard to win as evil as is (in current meta). This really won't help.. and sure, an evil can claim Sleuth but it does more bad than good to balance the game.
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Re: Sleuth (Town Investigative)

Postby JacksonVirgo » Tue Sep 17, 2019 8:22 pm

From my perspective, Town doesn't need ANY more roles at this current point in time. However, evils need one or two extra roles (probably in Mafia) to balance the game a bit more.
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Re: Sleuth (Town Investigative)

Postby ImposterK » Wed Sep 18, 2019 3:35 pm

JacksonVirgo wrote:From my perspective, Town doesn't need ANY more roles at this current point in time. However, evils need one or two extra roles (probably in Mafia) to balance the game a bit more.

I could argue that the Town Killing and Town Protective alignments do need more roles... Also, adding more roles creates more unique gameplay so it doesn't hurt to add more.
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Re: Sleuth (Town Investigative)

Postby ImposterK » Wed Sep 18, 2019 4:07 pm

ak521 wrote:I do like the idea, but it literally cripples the evil's role claim space. It'd be unreasonable to add to ToS because it's insanely hard to win as evil as is (in current meta). This really won't help.. and sure, an evil can claim Sleuth but it does more bad than good to balance the game.

As more people die, evildoers have a higher chance of players visiting them which will trigger the Sleuth's ability. There will also be a higher chance since more nights will have passed. Additionally, the Sleuth might have to spend multiple nights to investigate one specific person. Yes, the Sleuth could find an evildoer the night after they claim, but they also could find nothing (like Sheriff).
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Re: Sleuth (Town Investigative)

Postby JacksonVirgo » Thu Sep 19, 2019 2:39 am

ImposterK wrote:
JacksonVirgo wrote:From my perspective, Town doesn't need ANY more roles at this current point in time. However, evils need one or two extra roles (probably in Mafia) to balance the game a bit more.

I could argue that the Town Killing and Town Protective alignments do need more roles... Also, adding more roles creates more unique gameplay so it doesn't hurt to add more.


I see where you are coming from but considering Town wins majority of the games, any town role added should either make it easy for evils to use against town or easy to fake claim. The main problem I see is that evils lose claim space FAST, too fast than they probably should. Town should never be able to properly confirm themselves outside of how they are playing (exception being Mayor, maybe the Town Power alignment if you like that idea).

Literally claiming any Town Support role, except maybe Medium, is complete suicide because they are ALL confirmable, especially if a Spy is in game. Town Protective claims can work but not if there is a Lookout where they can see ALL Town Protective roles visit the TP/LO call and confirm them all. If Town should get more roles, the current roles must be reworked so they cannot be confirmed that easily, like christ. Mayor should really be the only self-confirming role in the game.

So no, I don't think Town should get new roles. However that of course is my opinion and I may be biased so, why do you think Town Killing and Town Protective need more roles? And why do you disagree with me (if you still do of course). Lemme know, thanks lol
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Re: Sleuth (Town Investigative)

Postby ImposterK » Thu Sep 19, 2019 8:00 pm

JacksonVirgo wrote:
ImposterK wrote:
JacksonVirgo wrote:From my perspective, Town doesn't need ANY more roles at this current point in time. However, evils need one or two extra roles (probably in Mafia) to balance the game a bit more.

I could argue that the Town Killing and Town Protective alignments do need more roles... Also, adding more roles creates more unique gameplay so it doesn't hurt to add more.


I see where you are coming from but considering Town wins majority of the games, any town role added should either make it easy for evils to use against town or easy to fake claim. The main problem I see is that evils lose claim space FAST, too fast than they probably should. Town should never be able to properly confirm themselves outside of how they are playing (exception being Mayor, maybe the Town Power alignment if you like that idea).

Literally claiming any Town Support role, except maybe Medium, is complete suicide because they are ALL confirmable, especially if a Spy is in game. Town Protective claims can work but not if there is a Lookout where they can see ALL Town Protective roles visit the TP/LO call and confirm them all. If Town should get more roles, the current roles must be reworked so they cannot be confirmed that easily, like christ. Mayor should really be the only self-confirming role in the game.

So no, I don't think Town should get new roles. However that of course is my opinion and I may be biased so, why do you think Town Killing and Town Protective need more roles? And why do you disagree with me (if you still do of course). Lemme know, thanks lol

I disagree with the first part about "any town role added to the game should either make it easy for evils to use against town or easy to fake claim." I do think that every Town role should not be instantly confirmable, but I think the other requirement would be that it has to be balanced and not a copy/paste from another role.

I do like the Town Power alignment with the Jailor, Retributionist, and Mayor roles being in it.

Escort isn't confirmable because of Consort, Mayor and Retributionist should be moved to Town Power, and Transporter should use my rework (:

More Town roles means more roles for evildoers to claim. I think Town Killing and Town Protective should get more roles because there are only 2 roles in those alignments. Town Support could also use more roles if the Town Power alignment is created, but Town Support roles are VERY difficult to create.
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Re: Sleuth (Town Investigative)

Postby JacksonVirgo » Fri Sep 20, 2019 5:17 am

First and foremost, knowledge is and always will be Mafia’s strongest asset and anything that takes this away from them cannot be considered. If more Town roles are added into the game, they also cannot be solely for the higher chance of Town winning, it is unnecessary and completely unbalanced. Instead, roles need to be created that are good and useful to play (so none of that, having a role that is a burden to their alignment blasphemy) but also allow Mafia to work around or even abuse solely with information rather than specific role abilities.

For example, in current classic ranked. There are two possible Town Protective roles in game and there is always at least one. Bodyguard and/or Doctor and both can visit the Jailor or important role every day, meaning that Mafia cannot use information against them outside of just popping the TP if they find it. Trapper makes a change, although not the greatest change, because if a Trapper is in game you can strategize around it and if there’s a possibility of TP being Trapper, a role which cannot protect N1, TP/LO calls will be less common hopefully too and that's the plan, make it so Town cannot control much from D1 like TP/LO calls do. I hope that made sense, probably not.

Town Killing roles are hard to create without replicating one of the twenty odd killing roles in game already in some capacity. Seriously though, another isn’t really needed regardless that only two TKs are in game.
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Re: Sleuth (Town Investigative)

Postby ImposterK » Fri Sep 20, 2019 6:31 am

JacksonVirgo wrote:First and foremost, knowledge is and always will be Mafia’s strongest asset and anything that takes this away from them cannot be considered. If more Town roles are added into the game, they also cannot be solely for the higher chance of Town winning, it is unnecessary and completely unbalanced. Instead, roles need to be created that are good and useful to play (so none of that, having a role that is a burden to their alignment blasphemy) but also allow Mafia to work around or even abuse solely with information rather than specific role abilities.

The purpose of every Town role is to help the Town win the game. I do not think that every role has to have something that the Mafia can use. I don't think that is important but even if it is, they have the power to kill the ones they can't use.
JacksonVirgo wrote:Town Killing roles are hard to create without replicating one of the twenty odd killing roles in game already in some capacity. Seriously though, another isn’t really needed regardless that only two TKs are in game.

I do think that more are needed for reasons I said before. Oh, also, check out the one I made (;
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Re: Sleuth (Town Investigative)

Postby JacksonVirgo » Fri Sep 20, 2019 6:59 am

Town does not need any more roles or buffs in order to make them stronger. They have the highest win rate out of all factions, no need to make that even worse.

EDIT: Don't get me wrong, it's a good role but it's a bit powerful for Town when they have the highest winrate, ya know?
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Re: Sleuth (Town Investigative)

Postby ImposterK » Fri Sep 20, 2019 10:05 am

JacksonVirgo wrote:Town does not need any more roles or buffs in order to make them stronger. They have the highest win rate out of all factions, no need to make that even worse.

EDIT: Don't get me wrong, it's a good role but it's a bit powerful for Town when they have the highest winrate, ya know?

I don't think it is too powerful. I think it has the chance to be powerful, but it also sometimes is not very useful (like all Town Investigative roles).
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Re: Sleuth (Town Investigative)

Postby SparkingJayYT » Fri Sep 20, 2019 1:44 pm

Just one question, are you able to see if an alive player and a dead player have visited each other? (After them being dead for at least 1 night)
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Re: Sleuth (Town Investigative)

Postby Brilliand » Fri Sep 20, 2019 1:47 pm

I still think that this role is too weak, JacksonVirgo thinks it's too strong. This amuses me.

This may require taking some statistics on "what would have happened if a Sleuth had been in the game".

(If I'm right and it's too weak, then SparklingJay's idea - allowing the role to check the dead - would be a good way to buff it.)
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Re: Sleuth (Town Investigative)

Postby ImposterK » Fri Sep 20, 2019 4:44 pm

SparkingJayYT wrote:Just one question, are you able to see if an alive player and a dead player have visited each other? (After them being dead for at least 1 night)

Currently the answer is no. The Sleuth can only question living players.
Brilliand wrote:I still think that this role is too weak, JacksonVirgo thinks it's too strong. This amuses me.

This may require taking some statistics on "what would have happened if a Sleuth had been in the game".

(If I'm right and it's too weak, then SparklingJay's idea - allowing the role to check the dead - would be a good way to buff it.)

If more people believe it is too weak, this idea can be added. I think adding this might make it too strong though.
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Re: Sleuth (Town Investigative)

Postby JacksonVirgo » Fri Sep 20, 2019 11:13 pm

Brilliand wrote:I still think that this role is too weak, JacksonVirgo thinks it's too strong. This amuses me.


Nah, I just don't think Town should have any roles that could up their chances of winning lol.
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Re: Sleuth (Town Investigative)

Postby ImposterK » Sat Sep 21, 2019 6:33 am

JacksonVirgo wrote:
Brilliand wrote:I still think that this role is too weak, JacksonVirgo thinks it's too strong. This amuses me.


Nah, I just don't think Town should have any roles that could up their chances of winning lol.

What's the point of a Town role that doesn't help the Town?
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Re: Sleuth (Town Investigative)

Postby JacksonVirgo » Sat Sep 21, 2019 6:55 am

ImposterK wrote:
JacksonVirgo wrote:
Brilliand wrote:I still think that this role is too weak, JacksonVirgo thinks it's too strong. This amuses me.


Nah, I just don't think Town should have any roles that could up their chances of winning lol.

What's the point of a Town role that doesn't help the Town?

More town roles don't need to be added, that's what I have been trying to say. Yeesh.
EDIT: I realize now I sound like a complete douche, apologies
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Re: Sleuth (Town Investigative)

Postby ImposterK » Sat Sep 21, 2019 9:17 am

JacksonVirgo wrote:
ImposterK wrote:
JacksonVirgo wrote:
Brilliand wrote:I still think that this role is too weak, JacksonVirgo thinks it's too strong. This amuses me.


Nah, I just don't think Town should have any roles that could up their chances of winning lol.

What's the point of a Town role that doesn't help the Town?

More town roles don't need to be added, that's what I have been trying to say. Yeesh.
EDIT: I realize now I sound like a complete douche, apologies

It feels like we're going in circles with what you're saying... Adding more Town roles helps evildoers by giving them more to claim. You're saying it hurts the Mafia by adding more Town roles. Can you explain this?
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