scarfves wrote:Soulshade55r wrote:Poryg wrote:Executioner is a kingmaker. Witch is a kingmaker. Survivor is a kingmaker. Jester is a kingmaker. Every non-killing neutral role is a kingmaker in chaos games. Sometimes even townies are.
And no, neither the purpose nor the playstyle of this executioner are the same as vanilla one. Both their goals and abilities are completely different, hence they cannot be the same.
Yes, you missed something. My comment was a reply to you saying that your overhaul creates the same immunities as vanilla exe, but better, which was simply not true. Hence contextually it was completely irrelevant that his marks are now infinite.
Kingsmaker roles have no place in a balanced ranked mode. Which survivor and most neutral benigns dont have a place in, Witch generally isn't a kingsmaker, while EXE/JESTER are functionally neutral benign roles especially jester
Witch isn't a kings maker, NK's create kings makers, All Nks need late game potential to wipe the town (Such as arsonist ignite), this way we have way
Less opportunity for kingmakers
All neutral roles that aren't currently locked onto a target to protect/kill are kingmakers by design, even the witch. Even if an NK does have late game potential to wipe town, the Witch can just control them to not do that. Even then, roles (and thus role ideas) akin to the witch in design also have similar problematics such as needing to be alive to win, so they have no penalty doing certain actions such as outing an NK's or Mafia's name just as they get the guilty verdict and are about to be lynched. If you really want Kingmakers to not exist in a ranked setting; remove any third-parties all together, which in my opinion makes the setting much less interesting for repeated playthroughs/lobbies.
Even if we want to argue about kingsmakers, which I personally don't have a issue with...
outside ranked, I think obviously we should try and reduce the amount of kingsmakers scenarios because they remove a lot of skill towards the game, In general witch has way less of chance to create kings makers, they also cannot give town the win; Granted I think you made a good point about witches "survivor" wincon because I actually agree that witch in general can screw over evils when they die and it's not throwing at all because they've already lost the game. But the solutions I've seen doesn't seem to be perfect. Maybe if the Witch dies they would be able to select a player that if their faction wins, the witch also wins? if they select town they'd lose still or something to make it in their best intrest to not out scum.
I was in support of no NK, in ranked, still sort of am but I doubt the public and casual player base would agree with no NK, so ranked should have nks with late game kills (such as my NK rework thread:
viewtopic.php?f=27&t=122260) I think at least having NK's with late game potential at least causes much
less kings makers to happen.
Jester/exe being neutral evil makes no sense I think fixing them to actually work with evils (espically jester) is a good direction, I also dont think it's fun to have a randomly generated reverse guardian angel after you.
Personally with ranked I hope it's took in a balanced direction, if not please just add neutral benign and more any, the current ranked lineup is boring and unbalanced anyway adding back the spice of season 1 ranked would at least be
fun