Spy Overhaul (Town Investigative)

Suggest new roles or changes to current roles for the game here.

Do you think this rework is balanced?

Yes
2
33%
No
4
67%
 
Total votes : 6

Re: Spy Overhaul (Town Investigative)

Postby Poryg » Thu Oct 06, 2022 3:41 am

How many townies would this show? If all, this makes visiting town easy to confirm. Whisper to jailor that you're spy, send the roles and jailor will then confirm that with claims from people.
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Re: Spy Overhaul (Town Investigative)

Postby syjfwbaobfwl » Thu Oct 06, 2022 6:42 am

So now it can be decieved? Thats nowhere near a good enough fix

In fact, it makes 0 sense that it couldnt be decieved before
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Re: Spy Overhaul (Town Investigative)

Postby Soulshade55r » Thu Oct 06, 2022 6:25 pm

While I'd prefer this over current spy, I can clearly see the issues with how a lot of meta's form, this would confirm too many roles too fast.

I made a similar version to this where you'd learn the factions of who visited (not how much)
Lets say 2 town 3 mafia and 1 coven visit the same target (who you bugged)

You'd learn on your bugged target which faction members visited
A member of the Town visited! [X], A member of the Mafia visited [X], a member of the coven visited [X]
bug results would also give you the same feedback such as role blocks, blackmailing witching ect. like it currently does, this would also include neutral roles, so spy has a niche aganist learning who nk visits act and can catch attacks on roles such as GF if lucky.

Even this version would be pretty strong if played right.

I agree with the idea of reworking spy, it's not a fun role to combat it feels awful being Consigliere or framer but spy learning your visits either ruining your fake claim ability or ruining your entire role, spy is rewarded too much for too little effort, I want Ti roles to actually work for results.
Favourite Roles (To play)
Spoiler: Town: Jailor
Mafia: Consort
NE: Witch
NB: Guardian Angel
Coven: Necromancer
NC: Pirate
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Re: Spy Overhaul (Town Investigative)

Postby MysticMismagius » Thu Oct 06, 2022 6:37 pm

This feels like a more consistent Trapper without the ability to protect
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Re: Spy Overhaul (Town Investigative)

Postby WaveAqualei » Thu Oct 06, 2022 7:20 pm

MysticMismagius wrote:This feels like a more consistent Trapper without the ability to protect

Fair enough. I wanted to make it more focused around the Bug ability but I don't really see that happening.
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Re: Spy Overhaul (Town Investigative)

Postby WaveAqualei » Thu Oct 06, 2022 7:21 pm

Soulshade55r wrote:While I'd prefer this over current spy, I can clearly see the issues with how a lot of meta's form, this would confirm too many roles too fast.

I made a similar version to this where you'd learn the factions of who visited (not how much)
Lets say 2 town 3 mafia and 1 coven visit the same target (who you bugged)

You'd learn on your bugged target which faction members visited
A member of the Town visited! [X], A member of the Mafia visited [X], a member of the coven visited [X]
bug results would also give you the same feedback such as role blocks, blackmailing witching ect. like it currently does, this would also include neutral roles, so spy has a niche aganist learning who nk visits act and can catch attacks on roles such as GF if lucky.

Even this version would be pretty strong if played right.

I agree with the idea of reworking spy, it's not a fun role to combat it feels awful being Consigliere or framer but spy learning your visits either ruining your fake claim ability or ruining your entire role, spy is rewarded too much for too little effort, I want Ti roles to actually work for results.

Would it be better to see the faction only? Meaning you'd see how many Town/Mafia/Coven/Neutrals visit your target.
I think that might be too weak but I'm not really sure.
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Re: Spy Overhaul (Town Investigative)

Postby Soulshade55r » Fri Oct 07, 2022 9:05 am

WaveAqualei wrote:
Soulshade55r wrote:While I'd prefer this over current spy, I can clearly see the issues with how a lot of meta's form, this would confirm too many roles too fast.

I made a similar version to this where you'd learn the factions of who visited (not how much)
Lets say 2 town 3 mafia and 1 coven visit the same target (who you bugged)

You'd learn on your bugged target which faction members visited
A member of the Town visited! [X], A member of the Mafia visited [X], a member of the coven visited [X]
bug results would also give you the same feedback such as role blocks, blackmailing witching ect. like it currently does, this would also include neutral roles, so spy has a niche aganist learning who nk visits act and can catch attacks on roles such as GF if lucky.

Even this version would be pretty strong if played right.

I agree with the idea of reworking spy, it's not a fun role to combat it feels awful being Consigliere or framer but spy learning your visits either ruining your fake claim ability or ruining your entire role, spy is rewarded too much for too little effort, I want Ti roles to actually work for results.

Would it be better to see the faction only? Meaning you'd see how many Town/Mafia/Coven/Neutrals visit your target.
I think that might be too weak but I'm not really sure.


Generally you can still easily confirm players, lets say you learn that 4x Town visited the jailor last night, This would bassically confirm 4 players once whisperd to the jailor

This would be too strong imo, Reminds me of "noble" from TOL where it would hear exact feedback (such as sheriff results) where it was just meta for the role sit on a player and confirm like 3-5 people it was ridiculously broken.

This would work pretty similar but likely even more stronger, So I think the issue stems from learning how much town visit, at least with LO RM can visit a target with this it can't, so the best solution would be to make sure it couldn't get too much information in one night.
Favourite Roles (To play)
Spoiler: Town: Jailor
Mafia: Consort
NE: Witch
NB: Guardian Angel
Coven: Necromancer
NC: Pirate
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Re: Spy Overhaul (Town Investigative)

Postby LordDrakyle » Fri Oct 07, 2022 3:46 pm

Soulshade55r wrote:
WaveAqualei wrote:
Soulshade55r wrote:While I'd prefer this over current spy, I can clearly see the issues with how a lot of meta's form, this would confirm too many roles too fast.

I made a similar version to this where you'd learn the factions of who visited (not how much)
Lets say 2 town 3 mafia and 1 coven visit the same target (who you bugged)

You'd learn on your bugged target which faction members visited
A member of the Town visited! [X], A member of the Mafia visited [X], a member of the coven visited [X]
bug results would also give you the same feedback such as role blocks, blackmailing witching ect. like it currently does, this would also include neutral roles, so spy has a niche aganist learning who nk visits act and can catch attacks on roles such as GF if lucky.

Even this version would be pretty strong if played right.

I agree with the idea of reworking spy, it's not a fun role to combat it feels awful being Consigliere or framer but spy learning your visits either ruining your fake claim ability or ruining your entire role, spy is rewarded too much for too little effort, I want Ti roles to actually work for results.

Would it be better to see the faction only? Meaning you'd see how many Town/Mafia/Coven/Neutrals visit your target.
I think that might be too weak but I'm not really sure.


Generally you can still easily confirm players, lets say you learn that 4x Town visited the jailor last night, This would bassically confirm 4 players once whisperd to the jailor

This would be too strong imo, Reminds me of "noble" from TOL where it would hear exact feedback (such as sheriff results) where it was just meta for the role sit on a player and confirm like 3-5 people it was ridiculously broken.

This would work pretty similar but likely even more stronger, So I think the issue stems from learning how much town visit, at least with LO RM can visit a target with this it can't, so the best solution would be to make sure it couldn't get too much information in one night.


i think the core issue is finding the right balancing act if changing it at all, you dont want to make it another type of Lookout but you also need to make sure it's of some use to the town that isnt some super specific niche like only seeing alerts that the bugged player gets, i dont like how Spy is currently (or Psy for that matter) but the issue is can it actually be changed from what it's current affect is without it either becoming a copy of another role or just completely useless. You could probably push for it and Psy to be made Unique since then a role that gathers info so easily would also be limited and come with a CC risk.
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Re: Spy Overhaul (Town Investigative)

Postby WaveAqualei » Fri Oct 07, 2022 4:39 pm

Soulshade55r wrote:
WaveAqualei wrote:
Soulshade55r wrote:While I'd prefer this over current spy, I can clearly see the issues with how a lot of meta's form, this would confirm too many roles too fast.

I made a similar version to this where you'd learn the factions of who visited (not how much)
Lets say 2 town 3 mafia and 1 coven visit the same target (who you bugged)

You'd learn on your bugged target which faction members visited
A member of the Town visited! [X], A member of the Mafia visited [X], a member of the coven visited [X]
bug results would also give you the same feedback such as role blocks, blackmailing witching ect. like it currently does, this would also include neutral roles, so spy has a niche aganist learning who nk visits act and can catch attacks on roles such as GF if lucky.

Even this version would be pretty strong if played right.

I agree with the idea of reworking spy, it's not a fun role to combat it feels awful being Consigliere or framer but spy learning your visits either ruining your fake claim ability or ruining your entire role, spy is rewarded too much for too little effort, I want Ti roles to actually work for results.

Would it be better to see the faction only? Meaning you'd see how many Town/Mafia/Coven/Neutrals visit your target.
I think that might be too weak but I'm not really sure.


Generally you can still easily confirm players, lets say you learn that 4x Town visited the jailor last night, This would bassically confirm 4 players once whisperd to the jailor

This would be too strong imo, Reminds me of "noble" from TOL where it would hear exact feedback (such as sheriff results) where it was just meta for the role sit on a player and confirm like 3-5 people it was ridiculously broken.

This would work pretty similar but likely even more stronger, So I think the issue stems from learning how much town visit, at least with LO RM can visit a target with this it can't, so the best solution would be to make sure it couldn't get too much information in one night.

I did want to make it where it would learn who the Mafia and Coven visited, but it would only reach out to:
- Spy's target
- People who visit or are visited by Spy's target
- People who visit the Spy

Similar to how PB spreads infection. I don't know if it would be too strong?
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Re: Spy Overhaul (Town Investigative)

Postby LordDrakyle » Sat Oct 08, 2022 3:59 am

WaveAqualei wrote:
Soulshade55r wrote:
WaveAqualei wrote:
Soulshade55r wrote:While I'd prefer this over current spy, I can clearly see the issues with how a lot of meta's form, this would confirm too many roles too fast.

I made a similar version to this where you'd learn the factions of who visited (not how much)
Lets say 2 town 3 mafia and 1 coven visit the same target (who you bugged)

You'd learn on your bugged target which faction members visited
A member of the Town visited! [X], A member of the Mafia visited [X], a member of the coven visited [X]
bug results would also give you the same feedback such as role blocks, blackmailing witching ect. like it currently does, this would also include neutral roles, so spy has a niche aganist learning who nk visits act and can catch attacks on roles such as GF if lucky.

Even this version would be pretty strong if played right.

I agree with the idea of reworking spy, it's not a fun role to combat it feels awful being Consigliere or framer but spy learning your visits either ruining your fake claim ability or ruining your entire role, spy is rewarded too much for too little effort, I want Ti roles to actually work for results.

Would it be better to see the faction only? Meaning you'd see how many Town/Mafia/Coven/Neutrals visit your target.
I think that might be too weak but I'm not really sure.


Generally you can still easily confirm players, lets say you learn that 4x Town visited the jailor last night, This would bassically confirm 4 players once whisperd to the jailor

This would be too strong imo, Reminds me of "noble" from TOL where it would hear exact feedback (such as sheriff results) where it was just meta for the role sit on a player and confirm like 3-5 people it was ridiculously broken.

This would work pretty similar but likely even more stronger, So I think the issue stems from learning how much town visit, at least with LO RM can visit a target with this it can't, so the best solution would be to make sure it couldn't get too much information in one night.

I did want to make it where it would learn who the Mafia and Coven visited, but it would only reach out to:
- Spy's target
- People who visit or are visited by Spy's target
- People who visit the Spy

Similar to how PB spreads infection. I don't know if it would be too strong?


Sounds like a superior version of a Lookout honestly and a tad too much info too easily offered for how little effort is done
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Re: Spy Overhaul (Town Investigative)

Postby WaveAqualei » Sat Oct 08, 2022 1:05 pm

LordDrakyle wrote:
WaveAqualei wrote:
Soulshade55r wrote:
WaveAqualei wrote:
Soulshade55r wrote:While I'd prefer this over current spy, I can clearly see the issues with how a lot of meta's form, this would confirm too many roles too fast.

I made a similar version to this where you'd learn the factions of who visited (not how much)
Lets say 2 town 3 mafia and 1 coven visit the same target (who you bugged)

You'd learn on your bugged target which faction members visited
A member of the Town visited! [X], A member of the Mafia visited [X], a member of the coven visited [X]
bug results would also give you the same feedback such as role blocks, blackmailing witching ect. like it currently does, this would also include neutral roles, so spy has a niche aganist learning who nk visits act and can catch attacks on roles such as GF if lucky.

Even this version would be pretty strong if played right.

I agree with the idea of reworking spy, it's not a fun role to combat it feels awful being Consigliere or framer but spy learning your visits either ruining your fake claim ability or ruining your entire role, spy is rewarded too much for too little effort, I want Ti roles to actually work for results.

Would it be better to see the faction only? Meaning you'd see how many Town/Mafia/Coven/Neutrals visit your target.
I think that might be too weak but I'm not really sure.


Generally you can still easily confirm players, lets say you learn that 4x Town visited the jailor last night, This would bassically confirm 4 players once whisperd to the jailor

This would be too strong imo, Reminds me of "noble" from TOL where it would hear exact feedback (such as sheriff results) where it was just meta for the role sit on a player and confirm like 3-5 people it was ridiculously broken.

This would work pretty similar but likely even more stronger, So I think the issue stems from learning how much town visit, at least with LO RM can visit a target with this it can't, so the best solution would be to make sure it couldn't get too much information in one night.

I did want to make it where it would learn who the Mafia and Coven visited, but it would only reach out to:
- Spy's target
- People who visit or are visited by Spy's target
- People who visit the Spy

Similar to how PB spreads infection. I don't know if it would be too strong?


Sounds like a superior version of a Lookout honestly and a tad too much info too easily offered for how little effort is done

It only learns Mafia/Coven visits, doesn't learn anything about Town or Neutrals.
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Re: Spy Overhaul (Town Investigative)

Postby WaveAqualei » Tue Oct 25, 2022 1:36 am

Instead of overhauling it, I decided to nerf Spy. You can find the link to it here.
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