Small changes to a lot of roles (town edition)

Suggest new roles or changes to current roles for the game here.

Small changes to a lot of roles (town edition)

Postby syjfwbaobfwl » Thu Aug 11, 2022 10:19 am

Title says all, this post contains small changes to many roles

Note that roles like psy or framer wont be mentioned because the changes they need aint small

Changes with a (?) Are adjustments that I am unsure about

Lets go

Town leader
Yeah; this is the best way to prevent random mayor/jailor from spawning

This alignment would be composed by just mayor and jailor (since I dont want to make trans unique and I am nerfing it anyway)

Town (Leader) roles are unique, and they may not spawn through random town slot (they can spawn in Any slots though)

Rank (and any balanced list) would change jailor for town leader

Jailor
-May not jail the same player twice in a row
-Jailed players will not be notified if someone attacked/roleblocked/transported/whatever them in jail
-2 executions (?)
To prevent jailor from deadlocking MK forever, to help hypno a bit and reduce town confirmability another little bit
Not sure about the 2 executions

Mayor
-Can be healed now
-Can whisper and be whispered to (?)
Mayor is much weaker than jailor, even with the small nerfs
Not being healable is stupid, rng decides wether mayor is completely defenseless or not
Whisper thing is because jailor or any confirmed townie can still be whispered

Town Killing

Vigilante
-Will not suicide if they shoot a townie, they will only put away their gun
-2 bullets (?)
Vigi shooting a townie most of the time costs town the entire game, not to mention witch exists
2 bullets in case vigi becomes too strong, but I dont think ots needed

Veteran

-Cannot alert n1
To prevent shitty d1 baits and encourage veterans to do less braindead plays
Also to reduce n1 luck
I wanted more changes but no one liked them so im not putting them here

Town Protective
These are changes mostly to prevent tp chains

Doctor and Crusader
-They may not target the same player twice in a row unless said player is attacked.
It prevents chaining, but it doesnt punishes doctor/crusader for playing good

Bodyguard
-May not be healed/protected if they fight off an attacker
-Can multitask now (use vest and guard someone at the same time)
-Cannot be guardian angel's target
-If they fight an attacker while using vest they will survive (?)
-If there are multiple attackers, all of them will be stopped but bodyguard will not attack anyone (?)
Bodyguard cant protect neither from astral nor indirect attacks, the vest thing is to allow some clutch plays
The multiple attacker interaction was suggested in another thread to remove the rng and I liked it

Trapper
-If trapper is controlled into placing a trap, they can dismantle it
-If multiple attackers visit your trapped target, the trap will stop them all but will not attack anyone
The CL mechanic is so fucking stupid that I would even consider it being a bug
The other change is for the same reason as bg change

Town investigative

Investigator
viewtopic.php?f=14&t=120082&p=3617624&hilit=Investigator+result#p3617595
Idc very much about surv amne and VH, but psy and dusa being in that result is stupid, is one of the reasons so many town roles are insta confirmed by investigators in coven

Sheriff
-SK and CL appear innocent now
-Roles with detection immunity will lose it for the night if they attack someone (or kill someone?)
-Necronomicon no longer gives detection immumity
To allow sheriff to find GF, arso and jugg under certain conditions
Necronomicon change is because it makes no sense for coven to be much better than mafia against sheriff when their weakness is investigation

Lookout

-Remove the 3 visits limit (?)
This is suposing tplo meta is nerfed, LO is suposed to target people that will be visited so it shouldnt have a limit

Town Support

Transporter
-Only the first target will be notified that they were transported
-May not self transport (or can only do it once/twice)
Transporter is way too confirmable, on top of that it is also very hard to kill due to unlimited self transports

Retributionsit
viewtopic.php?f=27&t=118506&p=3616263&hilit=retributionist#p3608929

reduces rng
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Re: Small changes to a lot of roles (town edition)

Postby Algus » Thu Aug 11, 2022 4:47 pm

syjfwbaobfwl wrote:Title says all, this post contains small changes to many roles

Note that roles like psy or framer wont be mentioned because the changes they need aint small

Changes with a (?) Are adjustments that I am unsure about

Lets go

Town leader
Yeah; this is the best way to prevent random mayor/jailor from spawning

This alignment would be composed by just mayor and jailor (since I dont want to make trans unique and I am nerfing it anyway)

Town (Leader) roles are unique, and they may not spawn through random town slot (they can spawn in Any slots though)

Rank (and any balanced list) would change jailor for town leader

Jailor
-May not jail the same player twice in a row
-Jailed players will not be notified if someone attacked/roleblocked/transported/whatever them in jail
-2 executions (?)
To prevent jailor from deadlocking MK forever, to help hypno a bit and reduce town confirmability another little bit
Not sure about the 2 executions

Mayor
-Can be healed now
-Can whisper and be whispered to (?)
Mayor is much weaker than jailor, even with the small nerfs
Not being healable is stupid, rng decides wether mayor is completely defenseless or not
Whisper thing is because jailor or any confirmed townie can still be whispered

Town Killing

Vigilante
-Will not suicide if they shoot a townie, they will only put away their gun
-2 bullets (?)
Vigi shooting a townie most of the time costs town the entire game, not to mention witch exists
2 bullets in case vigi becomes too strong, but I dont think ots needed

Veteran

-Cannot alert n1
To prevent shitty d1 baits and encourage veterans to do less braindead plays
Also to reduce n1 luck
I wanted more changes but no one liked them so im not putting them here

Town Protective
These are changes mostly to prevent tp chains

Doctor and Crusader
-They may not target the same player twice in a row unless said player is attacked.
It prevents chaining, but it doesnt punishes doctor/crusader for playing good

Bodyguard
-May not be healed/protected if they fight off an attacker
-Can multitask now (use vest and guard someone at the same time)
-Cannot be guardian angel's target
-If they fight an attacker while using vest they will survive (?)
-If there are multiple attackers, all of them will be stopped but bodyguard will not attack anyone (?)
Bodyguard cant protect neither from astral nor indirect attacks, the vest thing is to allow some clutch plays
The multiple attacker interaction was suggested in another thread to remove the rng and I liked it

Trapper
-If trapper is controlled into placing a trap, they can dismantle it
-If multiple attackers visit your trapped target, the trap will stop them all but will not attack anyone
The CL mechanic is so fucking stupid that I would even consider it being a bug
The other change is for the same reason as bg change

Town investigative

Investigator
viewtopic.php?f=14&t=120082&p=3617624&hilit=Investigator+result#p3617595
Idc very much about surv amne and VH, but psy and dusa being in that result is stupid, is one of the reasons so many town roles are insta confirmed by investigators in coven

Sheriff
-SK and CL appear innocent now
-Roles with detection immunity will lose it for the night if they attack someone (or kill someone?)
-Necronomicon no longer gives detection immumity
To allow sheriff to find GF, arso and jugg under certain conditions
Necronomicon change is because it makes no sense for coven to be much better than mafia against sheriff when their weakness is investigation

Lookout

-Remove the 3 visits limit (?)
This is suposing tplo meta is nerfed, LO is suposed to target people that will be visited so it shouldnt have a limit

Town Support

Transporter
-Only the first target will be notified that they were transported
-May not self transport (or can only do it once/twice)
Transporter is way too confirmable, on top of that it is also very hard to kill due to unlimited self transports

Retributionsit
viewtopic.php?f=27&t=118506&p=3616263&hilit=retributionist#p3608929

reduces rng


Town leader (this has historically been called town power) lets see; jailor and mayor are already unique (they can be remembered by amne now but theres still only one at any given time); I'm completely against jailor being a 50/50 instead of guaranteed, jailor is significantly more important than mayor imo. It's the cornerstone of town; Mayors too vulnerable to outright replace jailor (as at least jailor could rb his would be attacker), fully against this part.

As for jailor not being able to jail the same person twice I'm also against, the farthest I would go is lets say the 3rd time the same person is jailed, not necessarily consecutively, it forces an execute. You could also make a revealed mayor unjailable. Executes I'd leave at 3. Especially for non ranked games but honestly even for ranked games.

mayor being healable, im for this, im against them being whisperable.

would leave vig at 3 bullets, whether or not he suicides, personally he does still get one day as a useful vote; not suiciding could be seen as both a buff for town and evil though so i dont really care

vet not being able to alert n1, im for this

heal chaining has functionality outside of ranked and i dont consider it strong in ranked in general so i would leave this as is

bg should be healable still imo, should probably be able to use vest while visiting; its already substantially worse than doctor. my stats are 64 bg wins 92 doc 66/1 protected someone/saved self as bg 139/19 as doc; speaks for itself

being gas target is kind of just bad for the ga since the stars would have to align so i dont really care, i can see this causing problems in coven chaos games though so I would prefer it just left as is

multiple attacker thing idk, town lives are worth less than evil ones im not sure thats actually a worthwhile trade off, even if it does save the 'important' bg target


trapper idc about dismantling but im against it not killing anyone. My only real issue with trapper is bodyguard eats the trap instead of the killing role, or lets say 2 killing roles, instead of bg killing 1 trap killing 1 bg kills 1 and eats the trap; thats pretty dumb



-SK and CL appear innocent now
-Roles with detection immunity will lose it for the night if they attack someone (or kill someone?)
-Necronomicon no longer gives detection immumity
To allow sheriff to find GF, arso and jugg under certain conditions
Necronomicon change is because it makes no sense for coven to be much better than mafia against sheriff when their weakness is investigation


sure to the cl change, i think sk should stay suspicious personally, i dont think jugg should i dont think gf should and i think arso should under some circumstances (while actively dousing lets say) since staying home is still an option

then again i have more sheriff wins than any other role; 2nd closest is surv somehow so maybe this buff is unneeded

lookout i agree i guess; my stats have lookout and invest more or less even spy lowest sher highest; its probably balanced as is but honestly it doesnt really matter imo

trans im against changing at all. its one of the most fun roles and im against removing fun; trans is chaotic and is just as likely to hurt as it is to help a lot of the time, would never support a change.

ret changes i dont really care about. i think its more or less useless since it was reworked considering the stars have to align to get real value out of it. so in that sense i would buff it, since its been reworked you could just delete it for all i care though.
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Re: Small changes to a lot of roles (town edition)

Postby Soulshade55r » Thu Aug 11, 2022 8:30 pm

All responses in purple

Spoiler:
syjfwbaobfwl wrote:Title says all, this post contains small changes to many roles

Note that roles like psy or framer wont be mentioned because the changes they need aint small

Changes with a (?) Are adjustments that I am unsure about

Lets go

Town leader
Yeah; this is the best way to prevent random mayor/jailor from spawning

This alignment would be composed by just mayor and jailor (since I dont want to make trans unique and I am nerfing it anyway)

Town (Leader) roles are unique, and they may not spawn through random town slot (they can spawn in Any slots though)

Rank (and any balanced list) would change jailor for town leader

Jailor
-May not jail the same player twice in a row
-Jailed players will not be notified if someone attacked/roleblocked/transported/whatever them in jail
-2 executions (?)
To prevent jailor from deadlocking MK forever, to help hypno a bit and reduce town confirmability another little bit
Not sure about the 2 executions
I pretty much agree with all these changes, Jailor shouldn't be so powerful as it is right now, but we should keep the spirit of the Jailor, its a fun role and very good concept just its so overbear powerful even for a "power" role its insane


Mayor
-Can be healed now
-Can whisper and be whispered to (?)
Mayor is much weaker than jailor, even with the small nerfs
Not being healable is stupid, rng decides wether mayor is completely defenseless or not
Whisper thing is because jailor or any confirmed townie can still be whispered
Agreed, might need a slight buff in the future even nerfed jailor still sounds better, but this is a good start.

Town Killing

Vigilante
-Will not suicide if they shoot a townie, they will only put away their gun
-2 bullets (?)
Vigi shooting a townie most of the time costs town the entire game, not to mention witch exists
2 bullets in case vigi becomes too strong, but I dont think ots needed
Not sure on the 2 bullets part, but i do think vigilante being screwed over by dumb townies or witch so easily sucks, so i agree with it not having suicide guilt, I'd also probably change how controlling vigilante works, the witch interaction with vigilante is stupidly sided towards the witch.

Veteran

-Cannot alert n1
To prevent shitty d1 baits and encourage veterans to do less braindead plays
Also to reduce n1 luck
I wanted more changes but no one liked them so im not putting them here
I agree n1 alerts are stupid, a lot of the time I get screwed over by a silent vet, Day 1 isn't enough time to be able to read if someone could be a possible veteran. Its unfair on scum and town sometimes, I'd personally remove vet's unique status and reduce it to two alerts but vets generally a wonky role to balance.

Town Protective
These are changes mostly to prevent tp chains

Doctor and Crusader
-They may not target the same player twice in a row unless said player is attacked.
It prevents chaining, but it doesnt punishes doctor/crusader for playing good
I think giving a scum faction like mafia a one time bypass protective shot is also good, but mindlessly clicking on the jailor everynight isn't fun so i agree

Bodyguard
-May not be healed/protected if they fight off an attacker
-Can multitask now (use vest and guard someone at the same time)
-Cannot be guardian angel's target
-If they fight an attacker while using vest they will survive (?)
-If there are multiple attackers, all of them will be stopped but bodyguard will not attack anyone (?)
Bodyguard cant protect neither from astral nor indirect attacks, the vest thing is to allow some clutch plays
The multiple attacker interaction was suggested in another thread to remove the rng and I liked it
Sure? I agree with the ga part mainly and the not being able to be healed.

Trapper
-If trapper is controlled into placing a trap, they can dismantle it
-If multiple attackers visit your trapped target, the trap will stop them all but will not attack anyone
The CL mechanic is so fucking stupid that I would even consider it being a bug
The other change is for the same reason as bg change
Agreed

Town investigative

Investigator
viewtopic.php?f=14&t=120082&p=3617624&hilit=Investigator+result#p3617595
Idc very much about surv amne and VH, but psy and dusa being in that result is stupid, is one of the reasons so many town roles are insta confirmed by investigators in coven
I'd rework investigator results in general, right now they're pretty stupid and bad for a lot of them.

Sheriff
-SK and CL appear innocent now
-Roles with detection immunity will lose it for the night if they attack someone (or kill someone?)
-Necronomicon no longer gives detection immumity
To allow sheriff to find GF, arso and jugg under certain conditions
Necronomicon change is because it makes no sense for coven to be much better than mafia against sheriff when their weakness is investigation
I prefer how the Necronomicon works with detection immunity, I think its more intresting then "x is always detection immune" also means coven are more easily found early, I'd actually personally remove Godfathers detection immunity, but this would also be with a TMK implementation where disguiser in general is the only one to be able to hide players (Which i like because it has more planning towards it).

Lookout

-Remove the 3 visits limit (?)
This is suposing tplo meta is nerfed, LO is suposed to target people that will be visited so it shouldnt have a limit
I disagree, I think LO if more then 3 visits, should actually be told they couldn't make out anything (aka see no visitors but know there was more then 3), I think people will still call for TP/LO/SPY ect. just to confirm certain roles, it doesn't have to be the Jailor or Mayor.

Town Support

Transporter
-Only the first target will be notified that they were transported
-May not self transport (or can only do it once/twice)
Transporter is way too confirmable, on top of that it is also very hard to kill due to unlimited self transports
Self transports should be nuked get rid of them transporter is already really powerful if played right, I agree, mafia should be able to easily kill the trans

Retributionsit
viewtopic.php?f=27&t=118506&p=3616263&hilit=retributionist#p3608929

reduces rng

I think in general you can add more usability to retri then even the suggested topic.


A lot of these changes would in general make the game a lot more balanced and fun for evils, removing quite a bit of confirmability. Its not perfect but its sure as heck in the right direction on a lot of things.

I agree mainly with your points, I think my biggest gripe is theirs no mention of changing Spy that role is really unfun for mafia and coven to play around, spy generally doesn't do much in order to get its info, I find that its generally one of worst and baffling roles in design to me period. I'd also suggest Psychic (You already mentioned this) I really hate RNG roles that don't actually do anything for infomation.
Favourite Roles (To play)
Spoiler: Town: Jailor
Mafia: Consort
NE: Witch
NB: Guardian Angel
Coven: Necromancer
NC: Pirate
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Re: Small changes to a lot of roles (town edition)

Postby syjfwbaobfwl » Thu Aug 11, 2022 9:39 pm

Algus wrote: Spoiler:
syjfwbaobfwl wrote:Title says all, this post contains small changes to many roles

Note that roles like psy or framer wont be mentioned because the changes they need aint small

Changes with a (?) Are adjustments that I am unsure about

Lets go

Town leader
Yeah; this is the best way to prevent random mayor/jailor from spawning

This alignment would be composed by just mayor and jailor (since I dont want to make trans unique and I am nerfing it anyway)

Town (Leader) roles are unique, and they may not spawn through random town slot (they can spawn in Any slots though)

Rank (and any balanced list) would change jailor for town leader

Jailor
-May not jail the same player twice in a row
-Jailed players will not be notified if someone attacked/roleblocked/transported/whatever them in jail
-2 executions (?)
To prevent jailor from deadlocking MK forever, to help hypno a bit and reduce town confirmability another little bit
Not sure about the 2 executions

Mayor
-Can be healed now
-Can whisper and be whispered to (?)
Mayor is much weaker than jailor, even with the small nerfs
Not being healable is stupid, rng decides wether mayor is completely defenseless or not
Whisper thing is because jailor or any confirmed townie can still be whispered

Town Killing

Vigilante
-Will not suicide if they shoot a townie, they will only put away their gun
-2 bullets (?)
Vigi shooting a townie most of the time costs town the entire game, not to mention witch exists
2 bullets in case vigi becomes too strong, but I dont think ots needed

Veteran

-Cannot alert n1
To prevent shitty d1 baits and encourage veterans to do less braindead plays
Also to reduce n1 luck
I wanted more changes but no one liked them so im not putting them here

Town Protective
These are changes mostly to prevent tp chains

Doctor and Crusader
-They may not target the same player twice in a row unless said player is attacked.
It prevents chaining, but it doesnt punishes doctor/crusader for playing good

Bodyguard
-May not be healed/protected if they fight off an attacker
-Can multitask now (use vest and guard someone at the same time)
-Cannot be guardian angel's target
-If they fight an attacker while using vest they will survive (?)
-If there are multiple attackers, all of them will be stopped but bodyguard will not attack anyone (?)
Bodyguard cant protect neither from astral nor indirect attacks, the vest thing is to allow some clutch plays
The multiple attacker interaction was suggested in another thread to remove the rng and I liked it

Trapper
-If trapper is controlled into placing a trap, they can dismantle it
-If multiple attackers visit your trapped target, the trap will stop them all but will not attack anyone
The CL mechanic is so fucking stupid that I would even consider it being a bug
The other change is for the same reason as bg change

Town investigative

Investigator
viewtopic.php?f=14&t=120082&p=3617624&hilit=Investigator+result#p3617595
Idc very much about surv amne and VH, but psy and dusa being in that result is stupid, is one of the reasons so many town roles are insta confirmed by investigators in coven

Sheriff
-SK and CL appear innocent now
-Roles with detection immunity will lose it for the night if they attack someone (or kill someone?)
-Necronomicon no longer gives detection immumity
To allow sheriff to find GF, arso and jugg under certain conditions
Necronomicon change is because it makes no sense for coven to be much better than mafia against sheriff when their weakness is investigation

Lookout

-Remove the 3 visits limit (?)
This is suposing tplo meta is nerfed, LO is suposed to target people that will be visited so it shouldnt have a limit

Town Support

Transporter
-Only the first target will be notified that they were transported
-May not self transport (or can only do it once/twice)
Transporter is way too confirmable, on top of that it is also very hard to kill due to unlimited self transports

Retributionsit
viewtopic.php?f=27&t=118506&p=3616263&hilit=retributionist#p3608929

reduces rng


Town leader (this has historically been called town power) lets see; jailor and mayor are already unique (they can be remembered by amne now but theres still only one at any given time); I'm completely against jailor being a 50/50 instead of guaranteed, jailor is significantly more important than mayor imo. It's the cornerstone of town; Mayors too vulnerable to outright replace jailor (as at least jailor could rb his would be attacker), fully against this part.
I called it town leader just because tp is already used for town protective
Also yeah I think that jailor needs further nerfs to be on par with mayor, the thing is mayor is still too strong to be spawning randomly


As for jailor not being able to jail the same person twice I'm also against, the farthest I would go is lets say the 3rd time the same person is jailed, not necessarily consecutively, it forces an execute. You could also make a revealed mayor unjailable. Executes I'd leave at 3. Especially for non ranked games but honestly even for ranked games.
no, deadlocks from jailor shouldnt exist at all, let escort do that part
About executions, it was to make it closer in power to mayor


mayor being healable, im for this, im against them being whisperable.
fair

would leave vig at 3 bullets, whether or not he suicides, personally he does still get one day as a useful vote; not suiciding could be seen as both a buff for town and evil though so i dont really care

vet not being able to alert n1, im for this

heal chaining has functionality outside of ranked and i dont consider it strong in ranked in general so i would leave this as is
It is really unfun for everyone, and if tp screw up and jailor dies while they are alive, they can also do shitty chains in rank
This is also to prevent important townies from outing d1 and having tp sit on them every day


bg should be healable still imo, should probably be able to use vest while visiting; its already substantially worse than doctor. my stats are 64 bg wins 92 doc 66/1 protected someone/saved self as bg 139/19 as doc; speaks for itself
your stats say nothing

being gas target is kind of just bad for the ga since the stars would have to align so i dont really care, i can see this causing problems in coven chaos games though so I would prefer it just left as is
GA only spawns in CAA and VIP, what did you expect?

multiple attacker thing idk, town lives are worth less than evil ones im not sure thats actually a worthwhile trade off, even if it does save the 'important' bg target


trapper idc about dismantling but im against it not killing anyone. My only real issue with trapper is bodyguard eats the trap instead of the killing role, or lets say 2 killing roles, instead of bg killing 1 trap killing 1 bg kills 1 and eats the trap; thats pretty dumb
ummm no, what happens is that bg protection has priority over trapper, if 2 killers and 1 bg visit your trap, then you will take 1 each


-SK and CL appear innocent now
-Roles with detection immunity will lose it for the night if they attack someone (or kill someone?)
-Necronomicon no longer gives detection immumity
To allow sheriff to find GF, arso and jugg under certain conditions
Necronomicon change is because it makes no sense for coven to be much better than mafia against sheriff when their weakness is investigation


sure to the cl change, i think sk should stay suspicious personally, i dont think jugg should i dont think gf should and i think arso should under some circumstances (while actively dousing lets say) since staying home is still an option
arso is already the silent killer, why make it stay home?if SK is suspicious then jugg has 0 reason to be innocent

then again i have more sheriff wins than any other role; 2nd closest is surv somehow so maybe this buff is unneeded
then again your stats say nothing

lookout i agree i guess; my stats have lookout and invest more or less even spy lowest sher highest; its probably balanced as is but honestly it doesnt really matter imo
see above reply

trans im against changing at all. its one of the most fun roles and im against removing fun; trans is chaotic and is just as likely to hurt as it is to help a lot of the time, would never support a change.
what? This changes nothing except of trans confirmability and inmortality, you can still do everything a transporter can do now

ret changes i dont really care about. i think its more or less useless since it was reworked considering the stars have to align to get real value out of it. so in that sense i would buff it, since its been reworked you could just delete it for all i care though.
no removing roles unless the simple concept is bad (like vamps and VH)


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Re: Small changes to a lot of roles (town edition)

Postby Algus » Thu Aug 11, 2022 10:37 pm

I called it town leader just because tp is already used for town protective
Also yeah I think that jailor needs further nerfs to be on par with mayor, the thing is mayor is still too strong to be spawning randomly


disagree again. i want a role list change before a jailor change, if ever a jailor change

deadlocks from jailor shouldnt exist at all, let escort do that part
About executions, it was to make it closer in power to mayor


you could straight up remove mayor from ranked for all i care, i still wont condone jailor change before a role list rework

It is really unfun for everyone, and if tp screw up and jailor dies while they are alive, they can also do shitty chains in rank
This is also to prevent important townies from outing d1 and having tp sit on them every day


weak in ranked, serves a purpose in chaos game modes. doesnt need changed

GA only spawns in CAA and VIP, what did you expect?


yea and this change would only cause problems in that game mode so why would this be changed?; it would just screw over evils trying to claim bg and getting outed by their own ga. Not in need of a change

stats say everything, its 6 years worth of playing the game and they reflect how i generally feel about the roles regardless.

arso is already the silent killer, why make it stay home?if SK is suspicious then jugg has 0 reason to be innocent


arso is not unique, nor is sk. jug gf and cl are. arsos certainly overbuffed imo but its still not great, some how

trans is always going to be confirmable, its not immortal its a mind game

obviously they wont remove roles. for all i care though they could
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Re: Small changes to a lot of roles (town edition)

Postby syjfwbaobfwl » Thu Aug 11, 2022 10:56 pm

Algus wrote:
I called it town leader just because tp is already used for town protective
Also yeah I think that jailor needs further nerfs to be on par with mayor, the thing is mayor is still too strong to be spawning randomly


disagree again. i want a role list change before a jailor change, if ever a jailor change
jailor 100% needs changes, rn its way too much power in 1 player'a hands

deadlocks from jailor shouldnt exist at all, let escort do that part
About executions, it was to make it closer in power to mayor


you could straight up remove mayor from ranked for all i care, i still wont condone jailor change before a role list rework

It is really unfun for everyone, and if tp screw up and jailor dies while they are alive, they can also do shitty chains in rank
This is also to prevent important townies from outing d1 and having tp sit on them every day


weak in ranked, serves a purpose in chaos game modes. doesnt need changed
...you seem to forget how often jailor claims d1 and all tp sit on them

GA only spawns in CAA and VIP, what did you expect?


yea and this change would only cause problems in that game mode so why would this be changed?; it would just screw over evils trying to claim bg and getting outed by their own ga. Not in need of a change
Just because a role only appears in chaos modes it doesnt means that it shouldnt be changed

stats say everything, its 6 years worth of playing the game and they reflect how i generally feel about the roles regardless.
I have seen people from 2016 with very stupid ideas, so yeah your personal stats do say nothing more than your own personal experience when you play those roles

arso is already the silent killer, why make it stay home?if SK is suspicious then jugg has 0 reason to be innocent


arso is not unique, nor is sk. jug gf and cl are. arsos certainly overbuffed imo but its still not great, some how
Being unique has nothing to do with being inno or sus to sheriff

trans is always going to be confirmable, its not immortal its a mind game
trans can choose to be inmortal if they trans themselves every night, happens more often than what you think

obviously they wont remove roles. for all i care though they could
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Re: Small changes to a lot of roles (town edition)

Postby syjfwbaobfwl » Thu Aug 11, 2022 11:06 pm

(Cut down the post cause I am too lazy to put 5 spoiler tags, responsea in bold)
Town Killing

Vigilante
-Will not suicide if they shoot a townie, they will only put away their gun
-2 bullets (?)
Vigi shooting a townie most of the time costs town the entire game, not to mention witch exists
2 bullets in case vigi becomes too strong, but I dont think ots needed
Not sure on the 2 bullets part, but i do think vigilante being screwed over by dumb townies or witch so easily sucks, so i agree with it not having suicide guilt, I'd also probably change how controlling vigilante works, the witch interaction with vigilante is stupidly sided towards the witch.
With the new guilt mechanic I dont think its that bad, the even if town loses a member and vigi loses its ability, at least they get a confirmed townie in return

Veteran

Town Protective
These are changes mostly to prevent tp chains

Doctor and Crusader
-They may not target the same player twice in a row unless said player is attacked.
It prevents chaining, but it doesnt punishes doctor/crusader for playing good
I think giving a scum faction like mafia a one time bypass protective shot is also good, but mindlessly clicking on the jailor everynight isn't fun so i agree
Having strongman abilities (even if limited) is just as braindead as tp sitting every night on the same target, important townie got outed? Bye

Bodyguard
-May not be healed/protected if they fight off an attacker
-Can multitask now (use vest and guard someone at the same time)
-Cannot be guardian angel's target
-If they fight an attacker while using vest they will survive (?)
-If there are multiple attackers, all of them will be stopped but bodyguard will not attack anyone (?)
Bodyguard cant protect neither from astral nor indirect attacks, the vest thing is to allow some clutch plays
The multiple attacker interaction was suggested in another thread to remove the rng and I liked it
Sure? I agree with the ga part mainly and the not being able to be healed.

Trapper
-If trapper is controlled into placing a trap, they can dismantle it
-If multiple attackers visit your trapped target, the trap will stop them all but will not attack anyone
The CL mechanic is so fucking stupid that I would even consider it being a bug
The other change is for the same reason as bg change
Agreed

Town investigative

Investigator
viewtopic.php?f=14&t=120082&p=3617624&hilit=Investigator+result#p3617595
Idc very much about surv amne and VH, but psy and dusa being in that result is stupid, is one of the reasons so many town roles are insta confirmed by investigators in coven
I'd rework investigator results in general, right now they're pretty stupid and bad for a lot of them.
A complete rework of the results is too big of a change for this post, but yeah I agree that a lot of results could be changed

Sheriff
-SK and CL appear innocent now
-Roles with detection immunity will lose it for the night if they attack someone (or kill someone?)
-Necronomicon no longer gives detection immumity
To allow sheriff to find GF, arso and jugg under certain conditions
Necronomicon change is because it makes no sense for coven to be much better than mafia against sheriff when their weakness is investigation
I prefer how the Necronomicon works with detection immunity, I think its more intresting then "x is always detection immune" also means coven are more easily found early, I'd actually personally remove Godfathers detection immunity, but this would also be with a TMK implementation where disguiser in general is the only one to be able to hide players (Which i like because it has more planning towards it).
It swings way too much imo, GF having detection immunity is fine

Lookout

-Remove the 3 visits limit (?)
This is suposing tplo meta is nerfed, LO is suposed to target people that will be visited so it shouldnt have a limit
I disagree, I think LO if more then 3 visits, should actually be told they couldn't make out anything (aka see no visitors but know there was more then 3), I think people will still call for TP/LO/SPY ect. just to confirm certain roles, it doesn't have to be the Jailor or Mayor.
By tplo meta nerfed I mean adding the tp changes and roles that help counter it, also no, LO shouldnt be punished for doing what it is suposed to do (target people that will probably be visited)

Town Support

Transporter
-Only the first target will be notified that they were transported
-May not self transport (or can only do it once/twice)
Transporter is way too confirmable, on top of that it is also very hard to kill due to unlimited self transports
Self transports should be nuked get rid of them transporter is already really powerful if played right, I agree, mafia should be able to easily kill the trans

Retributionsit
viewtopic.php?f=27&t=118506&p=3616263&hilit=retributionist#p3608929

reduces rng

I think in general you can add more usability to retri then even the suggested topic.[/spoiler]

A lot of these changes would in general make the game a lot more balanced and fun for evils, removing quite a bit of confirmability. Its not perfect but its sure as heck in the right direction on a lot of things.

I agree mainly with your points, I think my biggest gripe is theirs no mention of changing Spy that role is really unfun for mafia and coven to play around, spy generally doesn't do much in order to get its info, I find that its generally one of worst and baffling roles in design to me period. I'd also suggest Psychic (You already mentioned this) I really hate RNG roles that don't actually do anything for infomation.[/quote]
I didnt mention spy cause that shit doesnt needs small changes, it needs a whole rework
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Re: Small changes to a lot of roles (town edition)

Postby Soulshade55r » Thu Aug 11, 2022 11:27 pm

syjfwbaobfwl wrote:(Cut down the post cause I am too lazy to put 5 spoiler tags, responsea in bold)
Town Killing

Vigilante
-Will not suicide if they shoot a townie, they will only put away their gun
-2 bullets (?)
Vigi shooting a townie most of the time costs town the entire game, not to mention witch exists
2 bullets in case vigi becomes too strong, but I dont think ots needed
Not sure on the 2 bullets part, but i do think vigilante being screwed over by dumb townies or witch so easily sucks, so i agree with it not having suicide guilt, I'd also probably change how controlling vigilante works, the witch interaction with vigilante is stupidly sided towards the witch.
With the new guilt mechanic I dont think its that bad, the even if town loses a member and vigi loses its ability, at least they get a confirmed townie in return

Veteran

Town Protective
These are changes mostly to prevent tp chains

Doctor and Crusader
-They may not target the same player twice in a row unless said player is attacked.
It prevents chaining, but it doesnt punishes doctor/crusader for playing good
I think giving a scum faction like mafia a one time bypass protective shot is also good, but mindlessly clicking on the jailor everynight isn't fun so i agree
Having strongman abilities (even if limited) is just as braindead as tp sitting every night on the same target, important townie got outed? Bye

Bodyguard
-May not be healed/protected if they fight off an attacker
-Can multitask now (use vest and guard someone at the same time)
-Cannot be guardian angel's target
-If they fight an attacker while using vest they will survive (?)
-If there are multiple attackers, all of them will be stopped but bodyguard will not attack anyone (?)
Bodyguard cant protect neither from astral nor indirect attacks, the vest thing is to allow some clutch plays
The multiple attacker interaction was suggested in another thread to remove the rng and I liked it
Sure? I agree with the ga part mainly and the not being able to be healed.

Trapper
-If trapper is controlled into placing a trap, they can dismantle it
-If multiple attackers visit your trapped target, the trap will stop them all but will not attack anyone
The CL mechanic is so fucking stupid that I would even consider it being a bug
The other change is for the same reason as bg change
Agreed

Town investigative

Investigator
viewtopic.php?f=14&t=120082&p=3617624&hilit=Investigator+result#p3617595
Idc very much about surv amne and VH, but psy and dusa being in that result is stupid, is one of the reasons so many town roles are insta confirmed by investigators in coven
I'd rework investigator results in general, right now they're pretty stupid and bad for a lot of them.
A complete rework of the results is too big of a change for this post, but yeah I agree that a lot of results could be changed

Sheriff
-SK and CL appear innocent now
-Roles with detection immunity will lose it for the night if they attack someone (or kill someone?)
-Necronomicon no longer gives detection immumity
To allow sheriff to find GF, arso and jugg under certain conditions
Necronomicon change is because it makes no sense for coven to be much better than mafia against sheriff when their weakness is investigation
I prefer how the Necronomicon works with detection immunity, I think its more intresting then "x is always detection immune" also means coven are more easily found early, I'd actually personally remove Godfathers detection immunity, but this would also be with a TMK implementation where disguiser in general is the only one to be able to hide players (Which i like because it has more planning towards it).
It swings way too much imo, GF having detection immunity is fine

Lookout

-Remove the 3 visits limit (?)
This is suposing tplo meta is nerfed, LO is suposed to target people that will be visited so it shouldnt have a limit
I disagree, I think LO if more then 3 visits, should actually be told they couldn't make out anything (aka see no visitors but know there was more then 3), I think people will still call for TP/LO/SPY ect. just to confirm certain roles, it doesn't have to be the Jailor or Mayor.
By tplo meta nerfed I mean adding the tp changes and roles that help counter it, also no, LO shouldnt be punished for doing what it is suposed to do (target people that will probably be visited)

Town Support

Transporter
-Only the first target will be notified that they were transported
-May not self transport (or can only do it once/twice)
Transporter is way too confirmable, on top of that it is also very hard to kill due to unlimited self transports
Self transports should be nuked get rid of them transporter is already really powerful if played right, I agree, mafia should be able to easily kill the trans

Retributionsit
viewtopic.php?f=27&t=118506&p=3616263&hilit=retributionist#p3608929

reduces rng

I think in general you can add more usability to retri then even the suggested topic.[/spoiler]

A lot of these changes would in general make the game a lot more balanced and fun for evils, removing quite a bit of confirmability. Its not perfect but its sure as heck in the right direction on a lot of things.

I agree mainly with your points, I think my biggest gripe is theirs no mention of changing Spy that role is really unfun for mafia and coven to play around, spy generally doesn't do much in order to get its info, I find that its generally one of worst and baffling roles in design to me period. I'd also suggest Psychic (You already mentioned this) I really hate RNG roles that don't actually do anything for infomation.

I didnt mention spy cause that shit doesnt needs small changes, it needs a whole rework[/quote]


Reply:
I think I'll just make a few more comments as I think a lot of your changes even if im not 100% we can both agree its a step up in the right direction (Also why are people thinking town power is better? I always thought Town Leader was better because TP confusion).

1) I think a 1 use strongman is the opposite of brainless, its tactical for both town and mafia, revealing d1 as mayor or outing d1 as Jailor shouldn't be really be viable, sure protectives can't be on jailor all night every night, but they could meta it in a way that Bodyguards/doctors switch on odd and even nights ect, Pretty sure your version of bg can still sit on the same target, LO can still sit on jailors. I think a 1 man strongman ability would really help, its not like mafia would wanna waste it on a confirmed Sheriff unless they've cleared out the Town Leader already.

2) I think detection Immunity should be generally based on who the evils feel like who needs hiding, Necronomicon right now shouldn't be working by "lol give it a priority system" really it should be more based on whoever was chosen by coven (Which might be harder to implement but is more fun and doesn't lead to a poisoner getting it while theirs no doctors, or a pm when they just got another kill potion ready ect. Godfather shouldn't really have detection immunity IMO. I think it should be a Disguiser ability only (possibly making disguiser unique) So mafia has to make a a choice on who they should generally hide instead of "its always the godfather".

3) If a target is getting more then 3 visitors I generally think its just a "sit on x" to confirm so many players ability, people will still call for TP/LO/SPY like I've said, it might not be the Jailor or Mayor but it sure will still exist at a worse rate and still will confirm players easily, I don't think your tp changes would change anything. About LO other then enforce easy confirmations more. I think LO should generally be watching people who they think will be attacked, Lo will generally get always better information then the Tracker in comparison. Because the LO will know who else visited ect. Tracker can still accidently get a unlucky Ti "caught" while the LO generally always has more stable and good information. I just don't think in general your tp changes would matter but LO will still be able to easy confirm targets.
Edit:
I also think LO needs a "counter role" aka someone who can see visits (possibly Consigliere but apparently im the only one who thinks consig is weak)


Glad you agree spy needs changing, I feel like I've had to argue why spy is such a horrendous and awfully designed role, people might say "its not as bad now" but its still a god damn mess its still awful to play against as mafia
Favourite Roles (To play)
Spoiler: Town: Jailor
Mafia: Consort
NE: Witch
NB: Guardian Angel
Coven: Necromancer
NC: Pirate
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