Reaver (Neutral Killing)

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Reaver (Neutral Killing)

Postby TheTraitorofSalem » Wed Jan 19, 2022 4:36 am

Role Name: Reaver

A raging psychopath who attacks strangers at random

Attack: Basic Defense: Basic (if Bloodlust is below High)

Abilities:
-At night attack someone, injuring them.

Attributes:
-Whenever you successfully attack someone, your bloodlust grows
-If you fail to successfully attack anybody then your bloodlust will be reset to low
-If your bloodlust gets too high you will die


Special Attributes:
-Injured targets cannot be healed
-You will not die from Fatal bloodlust if you are one of only two players remaining.


Additional Information:
-The Reaver is a Neutral Killing role with a progressive attack system that increases his bloodlust and makes him stronger the more he injures people. He deals a Basic attack which is similar to poison (but cannot be healed the following night).
-If the Reaver fails to make a successful attack then his bloodlust will reset to very low
-The Reaver never has 0 bloodlust. You start the game as having "low" bloodlust
-The Reaver will attack in order of targets selected. Failing the first attack will reset your bloodlust, which will cancel out any further attacks for the night.

Bloodlust
Low - Medium - Medium- High - High - Very High - Extreme - Fatal

Low: 1 Attack
Medium: 2 Attacks
High: 2 Attacks with the first being Fatal
Very High: 2 Attacks with the first being a Rampage and fatal to the initial target.
Extreme: 3 Deadly Attacks with the first one being a POWERFUL Rampage

Strengths:
*Can control how many attacks he makes
*Can manage his bloodlust
*Is very useful at making the final attack to achieve victory

Weaknesses:
*Not all attacks are fatal
*Any sort of Role blocker
*Bodyguards protecting a target. The Reaver has more chance of encountering one with his multi-targets
*Other killing roles. Ones with basic attacks can kill the Reaver with a bloodlust of High or more. All attacks by the Reaver will fail if the attack results in an injure. NOTE: If the Reaver is saved by a Doctor, then his attacks are still cancelled. The Reavers attacks are only successful when he has his basic defense against attackers with a Basic Attack.



Example:
Night 1: Attack 2 (injure) - (progression to Medium)
Night 2: Attack 3 and 5 (both successful injures) - (progression to High)
Night 3: Attack 6 and 7 (6 immune) - (reset to Low)

Example 2:
Night 1: Attack 5 (Injure) - (progression to Medium)
Night 2: Attack 1 and 2 (both successful Injures) - (progression to High)
Night 3: Attack 7 and 15 (7 dies) (15 injured) (progression to Very High)
Night 4: Rampage 8, Attack 14 (8 dies) (6 visits 8, gets injured) (14 gets injured)
Night 4: Fatal bloodlust, you die
Last edited by TheTraitorofSalem on Thu Jan 27, 2022 2:09 am, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: Reaver (Neutral Killing)

Postby WaveAqualei » Wed Jan 19, 2022 5:48 am

Needs Investigative results for one...

Other than that it sounds like another type of Juggernaut that has to play less safe in order to survive. I'm not sure I like that.
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Re: Reaver (Neutral Killing)

Postby TheTraitorofSalem » Wed Jan 19, 2022 5:53 am

WaveAqualei wrote:Needs Investigative results for one...

Other than that it sounds like another type of Juggernaut that has to play less safe in order to survive. I'm not sure I like that.


Id prefer Investigator to get a rework. Currently it's just random roles chucked in with other roles, with no sense as to why these roles are together.

Juggernaut has a lazy mechanic of not being able to attack N1, just because.

Reaver has to play safe to avoid dying from a Fatal bloodlust.

Reavers attacks are not fatal, unless stated.

Reaver also has many weaknessess. Such as roleblockers and killing roles.
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Re: Reaver (Neutral Killing)

Postby WaveAqualei » Wed Jan 19, 2022 5:57 am

TheTraitorofSalem wrote:
WaveAqualei wrote:Needs Investigative results for one...

Other than that it sounds like another type of Juggernaut that has to play less safe in order to survive. I'm not sure I like that.


Id prefer Investigator to get a rework. Currently it's just random roles chucked in with other roles, with no sense as to why these roles are together.

Juggernaut has a lazy mechanic of not being able to attack N1, just because.

Reaver has to play safe to avoid dying from a Fatal bloodlust.

Reavers attacks are not fatal, unless stated.

Reaver also has many weaknessess. Such as roleblockers and killing roles.


I don't think any of the roles in the Investigator results don't make sense except Forger, Juggernaut, and Vampire Hunter.
Regardless, what about Sheriff's and Consigliere's results?

Also, keep in mind that just because a role has many weaknesses doesn't make it balanced; if that's how it worked then Juggernaut is balanced.
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Re: Reaver (Neutral Killing)

Postby TheTraitorofSalem » Wed Jan 19, 2022 6:04 am

WaveAqualei wrote:
TheTraitorofSalem wrote:
WaveAqualei wrote:Needs Investigative results for one...

Other than that it sounds like another type of Juggernaut that has to play less safe in order to survive. I'm not sure I like that.


Id prefer Investigator to get a rework. Currently it's just random roles chucked in with other roles, with no sense as to why these roles are together.

Juggernaut has a lazy mechanic of not being able to attack N1, just because.

Reaver has to play safe to avoid dying from a Fatal bloodlust.

Reavers attacks are not fatal, unless stated.

Reaver also has many weaknessess. Such as roleblockers and killing roles.


I don't think any of the roles in the Investigator results don't make sense except Forger, Juggernaut, and Vampire Hunter.
Regardless, what about Sheriff's and Consigliere's results?

Also, keep in mind that just because a role has many weaknesses doesn't make it balanced; if that's how it worked then Juggernaut is balanced.


Godfather - Arsonist
Godfather - Bodyguard
Arsonist - Bodyguard
Guardian Angel - Spy/Blackmailer/Jailor
Sheriff - Werewolf
Spy/Blackmailer - Jailor
Plague - Invest/Consig/Mayor/tracker

^^^Explain these

Sheriff - Suspicious. Isn't that what Sheriffs meant to do anyway??? Find evils. Shouldn't need to say it

Consigliere - Well would obviously discover the role. But I don't think adding in the flavor is essential, most role ideas on here haven't done that.

Juggernaunt doesn't kill N1, just because. It's unbalanced as a role, so they leave it inactive for a day to make it less powerful.

But why is this role unbalanced?
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Re: Reaver (Neutral Killing)

Postby WaveAqualei » Wed Jan 19, 2022 7:47 pm

Bodyguard - Godfather - Arsonist
All aren't afraid to get their hands dirty
Guardian Angel - Spy/Blackmailer/Jailor
All of these have to do with whispering
Sheriff - Werewolf
Both of these are seeking justice
Spy/Blackmailer - Jailor
As said above
Plague - Invest/Consig/Mayor/tracker
All have powerful information to hide


Juggernaunt doesn't kill N1, just because. It's unbalanced as a role, so they leave it inactive for a day to make it less powerful.

Werewolf can't attack for 2 nights, I don't get your point.

But why is this role unbalanced?

It has to limit its kills to literally stay alive; no NK role needs to do that.
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Re: Reaver (Neutral Killing)

Postby TheTraitorofSalem » Wed Jan 19, 2022 8:12 pm

Werewolf attacks on full moon nights though, which just happen to occur every 2nd night. Juggernaunt can't attack N1 well just because.

But why does limiting its kills make it unbalanced? It's not meant to do what other NK roles does, because its a different role.
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Re: Reaver (Neutral Killing)

Postby WaveAqualei » Wed Jan 19, 2022 10:34 pm

TheTraitorofSalem wrote:Werewolf attacks on full moon nights though, which just happen to occur every 2nd night. Juggernaunt can't attack N1 well just because.

But why does limiting its kills make it unbalanced? It's not meant to do what other NK roles does, because its a different role.

Juggernaut attacks on Full Moon nights as well? Unless it gets a kill on N2 that's how it behaves.
It's a different role, but it shouldn't have the risk of killing itself.
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Re: Reaver (Neutral Killing)

Postby TheTraitorofSalem » Sat Jan 22, 2022 12:44 am

Yes but Werewolfs attack on full moon nights because that's common Lore that a person turns into a WW when there's a full moon. Juggernaut just attacks on full moon nights, just because they do.

Vigilante has the risk of killing itself, so does Bodyguard. The risk is manageable, a lot of roles in this game have some sort of risk. There's always a risk of dying everynight. Just because this role has a risk of dying, if not managed properly, doesn't make the role bad.
There's a reason for it as well. The Reaver becomes overwhelmed with bloodlust that he has a heart attack, stroke or his blood boils and kills him. There's countless possibilities as to why it happens.
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Re: Reaver (Neutral Killing)

Postby WaveAqualei » Sun Jan 23, 2022 5:31 am

TheTraitorofSalem wrote:Yes but Werewolfs attack on full moon nights because that's common Lore that a person turns into a WW when there's a full moon. Juggernaut just attacks on full moon nights, just because they do.

Vigilante has the risk of killing itself, so does Bodyguard. The risk is manageable, a lot of roles in this game have some sort of risk. There's always a risk of dying everynight. Just because this role has a risk of dying, if not managed properly, doesn't make the role bad.
There's a reason for it as well. The Reaver becomes overwhelmed with bloodlust that he has a heart attack, stroke or his blood boils and kills him. There's countless possibilities as to why it happens.

I think the problem you have is you're applying lore to a role that doesn't exist, then you're making a role from the lore you have created. You're doing the process backwards and that's what's getting in your way.

But this role is unbalanced altogether. Why does its ability fail when it gets attacked? Applying something extremely weak to even out an overpowered ability doesn't make a role balanced; they make it unbalanced in both ways.

Unless you rework this role, /nosupport
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Re: Reaver (Neutral Killing)

Postby TheTraitorofSalem » Mon Jan 24, 2022 2:34 am

I wasn't applying any lore, you will arguing with me about other roles in the game

Actually, the ability only fails if a role which can harm the Reaver attacks him. If a Godfather attacks a Reaver with Medium Bloodlust, the Reaver will still attack. "Extremely weak" come on, thats a bit far. There's not that many killing roles in the game and you'd be very unlucky to get attacked every night.

You're wrong about this being unbalanced. It has decent kill potential, without being over the top and has ways to manage multiple attacks.
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Re: Reaver (Neutral Killing)

Postby WaveAqualei » Mon Jan 24, 2022 4:31 am

TheTraitorofSalem wrote:I wasn't applying any lore, you will arguing with me about other roles in the game

Actually, the ability only fails if a role which can harm the Reaver attacks him. If a Godfather attacks a Reaver with Medium Bloodlust, the Reaver will still attack. "Extremely weak" come on, thats a bit far. There's not that many killing roles in the game and you'd be very unlucky to get attacked every night.

You're wrong about this being unbalanced. It has decent kill potential, without being over the top and has ways to manage multiple attacks.

Just because this role is super UP in one area and super OP in another does not make it balanced. Ever. If you think this role is balanced, then Juggernaut is balanced, too.
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Re: Reaver (Neutral Killing)

Postby syjfwbaobfwl » Mon Jan 24, 2022 10:22 am

Why is juggernaut unbalanced?
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Re: Reaver (Neutral Killing)

Postby WaveAqualei » Mon Jan 24, 2022 10:00 pm

syjfwbaobfwl wrote:Why is juggernaut unbalanced?

IMO it's the Investigator result that it's in; it has no easy role to fake claim.
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Re: Reaver (Neutral Killing)

Postby TheTraitorofSalem » Tue Jan 25, 2022 5:01 am

WaveAqualei wrote:
TheTraitorofSalem wrote:I wasn't applying any lore, you will arguing with me about other roles in the game

Actually, the ability only fails if a role which can harm the Reaver attacks him. If a Godfather attacks a Reaver with Medium Bloodlust, the Reaver will still attack. "Extremely weak" come on, thats a bit far. There's not that many killing roles in the game and you'd be very unlucky to get attacked every night.

You're wrong about this being unbalanced. It has decent kill potential, without being over the top and has ways to manage multiple attacks.

Just because this role is super UP in one area and super OP in another does not make it balanced. Ever. If you think this role is balanced, then Juggernaut is balanced, too.


On average you'd get attacked about once a game, even less in a ranked or competitive set-up. So I wouldn't call it "super underpowered in one area" Having that downfall isn't as determinantal as you make it out to be and I don't really see why its a big deal, if this role losses a nights worth of attacks if he dies.
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Re: Reaver (Neutral Killing)

Postby Salocin481 » Tue Jan 25, 2022 5:02 am

I like the concept! Quite a bit actually. I think the bloodlust getting too high is flavor that won't happen in game (You can just not attack that night). You can just force a roleblock and bloodlust reset when they get too high, because effectively that's what's going to happen.

Secondly, the killing power. Yes, it is injuries and not straight kills, but all NKs have (approx.) 1 or less guaranteed kpn (SK = 1kpn, Arso = 1 kill less than 1kpn, WW = 2 kills less than 1kpn, Jugg = 1 kill less than 1kpn) with the off chance of it going higher (Rampage, Arso visits, SK roleblock attacks). In your role, you've got fairly consistent >1kpn. (In example 2 you've got 6 kills by the end of n4, and 8 by the end of n5 assuming no Docs. That's HALF the town from one role. I like the Low - Medium - Medium- High - High - Very High - Extreme - Fatal thing. Why isn't that reflected in the example?)

However, to offset this kill power, you've got Reaver completely ANNIHALATED by some roles. Escort, Jailor and Doctor crush this role unnecessarily. Getting roleblocked or jailed is a death sentence to Reaver, and Doctor can pick up free protects on injured players. Maybe give it a tool at low/medium bloodlust to deal with roleblockers? The Doctor issue isn't *terrible* but I would advocate for injured players to be unhealable. Doctor already missed their change to heal them the night before.

The kills failing if the Reaver gets attacked is unnecessary. Reaver is dead anyways, why not just let the kills go through like every other role?

This being suspicious to Sheriff is too harsh (I personally don't think SK needs to be suspicious at all times). Maybe make it conditional? if your bloodlust is too high, you're suspicious! That makes more sense to me. Also, your opinions on Invest aside, you need Invest results. Like it or not, Invest results are an important part of balancing a role.

Also as a clarifying thing, if the second attack of a High Bloodlust Reaver fails, does that reset the bloodlust? A little unclear.

These are mostly nitpicks, I think you need to simplify it down a bit, and deal with some of the role interactions. Overall I think the concept is strong. I typically agree with Wave on balancing stuff, but I don't think a lot of their arguments are fair. Despite that, I do agree that the role is pretty lopsided. It has the ability to eliminate half the town, but depending on the rolelist it could get shut down by a roleblock or a couple Docs running around to stop 90% of the kills. Just some consistency changes would really solidify the role in my opinion!

Let me know what you think!
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Re: Reaver (Neutral Killing)

Postby WaveAqualei » Tue Jan 25, 2022 6:41 pm

Salocin481 wrote:I like the concept! Quite a bit actually. I think the bloodlust getting too high is flavor that won't happen in game (You can just not attack that night). You can just force a roleblock and bloodlust reset when they get too high, because effectively that's what's going to happen.
Fair enough actually.

Salocin481 wrote:Secondly, the killing power. Yes, it is injuries and not straight kills, but all NKs have (approx.) 1 or less guaranteed kpn (SK = 1kpn, Arso = 1 kill less than 1kpn, WW = 2 kills less than 1kpn, Jugg = 1 kill less than 1kpn) with the off chance of it going higher (Rampage, Arso visits, SK roleblock attacks). In your role, you've got fairly consistent >1kpn. (In example 2 you've got 6 kills by the end of n4, and 8 by the end of n5 assuming no Docs. That's HALF the town from one role. I like the Low - Medium - Medium- High - High - Very High - Extreme - Fatal thing. Why isn't that reflected in the example?)
Not even that but no role in ToS can target 3 players in a night.

Salocin481 wrote:However, to offset this kill power, you've got Reaver completely ANNIHALATED by some roles. Escort, Jailor and Doctor crush this role unnecessarily. Getting roleblocked or jailed is a death sentence to Reaver, and Doctor can pick up free protects on injured players. Maybe give it a tool at low/medium bloodlust to deal with roleblockers? The Doctor issue isn't *terrible* but I would advocate for injured players to be unhealable. Doctor already missed their change to heal them the night before.
Yeah Doctor shouldn't be able to heal injuries, it makes this role too much like NK Poisoner.

Salocin481 wrote:The kills failing if the Reaver gets attacked is unnecessary. Reaver is dead anyways, why not just let the kills go through like every other role?
Yeah this was one of the things that I hated about this role... also I just found out that Reaver only has Basic defense when their bloodlust is below High... what? All NKs should have permanent defense (Basic preferably).

Salocin481 wrote:This being suspicious to Sheriff is too harsh (I personally don't think SK needs to be suspicious at all times). Maybe make it conditional? if your bloodlust is too high, you're suspicious! That makes more sense to me. Also, your opinions on Invest aside, you need Invest results. Like it or not, Invest results are an important part of balancing a role.
I agree with the Sheriff result thing, it being always suspicious is a bit sad.
And yeah, you need Invest results hun.

Salocin481 wrote:Also as a clarifying thing, if the second attack of a High Bloodlust Reaver fails, does that reset the bloodlust? A little unclear.
I can't answer this for you but I think if one target has defense, all attacks fail and bloodlust is reset, no matter the order.

Salocin481 wrote:These are mostly nitpicks, I think you need to simplify it down a bit, and deal with some of the role interactions. Overall I think the concept is strong. I typically agree with Wave on balancing stuff, but I don't think a lot of their arguments are fair. Despite that, I do agree that the role is pretty lopsided. It has the ability to eliminate half the town, but depending on the rolelist it could get shut down by a roleblock or a couple Docs running around to stop 90% of the kills. Just some consistency changes would really solidify the role in my opinion!

Let me know what you think!

I agree with your takes for the most part, it would help with this role a lot.

I think what else needs balancing is that the most of the attacks need to be instant instead of a delayed kill. Also the penalty for going to the maximum amount of bloodlust shouldn't be death, maybe you can't attack for two nights? Not sure, but that needs something else.
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Re: Reaver (Neutral Killing)

Postby TheTraitorofSalem » Wed Jan 26, 2022 1:40 am

Not even that but no role in ToS can target 3 players in a night.

Does it really matter that no role can target 3 players? It's 1 extra button, would not be that hard to implement. And I've seen other roles which would have multi-target selection. Just because no other role in TOS has something, doesn't make it bad

I agree with the Sheriff result thing, it being always suspicious is a bit sad.
And yeah, you need Invest results hun.

Sheriff is underpowered and its job should be to detect alignment. Frankly, Sheriff should be able to detect all Mafia/Coven/Neutral Killing. This actually makes the role a threat that evils will try to kill, rather then just some easy role to fake claim for everybody.

Don't call me Hun in that condescending way, I ain't ya Hun. Investigator results are not essential until a role is actually implemented. And the entire Investigator system needs a rework, so I prefer not to suggest invest results. At this stage, I do not need em.


I can't answer this for you but I think if one target has defense, all attacks fail and bloodlust is reset, no matter the order.

Wrong and the way it works was specified. Targets work in order; Reaver selects 9 first (not immune), the attack is a success, Reaver selects 15 secondly (immune), bloodlust resets.

I think what else needs balancing is that the most of the attacks need to be instant instead of a delayed kill. Also the penalty for going to the maximum amount of bloodlust shouldn't be death, maybe you can't attack for two nights? Not sure, but that needs something else.

Nah the death is essential, its manageable, but its a minor risk. Being able to attack 3 people with the first being a Rampage and then being able to attack again, would be overpowered, even if you do have to wait two nights. The main strength of this role is to have a very strong finisher. The Reaver can go for a mass wipeout with less then 5 people left, but if he fails, then he deserves to lose. Reaver doesn't die if hes alive by himself or its a 1v1.
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Re: Reaver (Neutral Killing)

Postby TheTraitorofSalem » Wed Jan 26, 2022 1:58 am

Thank you a lot for the great feedback!! I will try to touch up on this role very shortly.

Salocin481 wrote:I like the concept! Quite a bit actually. I think the bloodlust getting too high is flavor that won't happen in game (You can just not attack that night). You can just force a roleblock and bloodlust reset when they get too high, because effectively that's what's going to happen.

Secondly, the killing power. Yes, it is injuries and not straight kills, but all NKs have (approx.) 1 or less guaranteed kpn (SK = 1kpn, Arso = 1 kill less than 1kpn, WW = 2 kills less than 1kpn, Jugg = 1 kill less than 1kpn) with the off chance of it going higher (Rampage, Arso visits, SK roleblock attacks). In your role, you've got fairly consistent >1kpn. (In example 2 you've got 6 kills by the end of n4, and 8 by the end of n5 assuming no Docs. That's HALF the town from one role. I like the Low - Medium - Medium- High - High - Very High - Extreme - Fatal thing. Why isn't that reflected in the example?)

However, to offset this kill power, you've got Reaver completely ANNIHALATED by some roles. Escort, Jailor and Doctor crush this role unnecessarily. Getting roleblocked or jailed is a death sentence to Reaver, and Doctor can pick up free protects on injured players. Maybe give it a tool at low/medium bloodlust to deal with roleblockers? The Doctor issue isn't *terrible* but I would advocate for injured players to be unhealable. Doctor already missed their change to heal them the night before.

Hmm, ain't all killing roles annihalated by Jailor? And all expect SK annihalated by Escorts? I'm sure the player could handle a reset, they can get back up to High bloodlust fairly quickly. If they're getting roleblocked everynight, then you're fucked anyway. Escort annihalates Arsonist specifically.

The Doctor thing is arguable and usually there's not enough Doctors to make any difference when a Poisoners in the game. And when the Reaver can attack multiple times, it becomes even harder to heal.


The kills failing if the Reaver gets attacked is unnecessary. Reaver is dead anyways, why not just let the kills go through like every other role?

This being suspicious to Sheriff is too harsh (I personally don't think SK needs to be suspicious at all times). Maybe make it conditional? if your bloodlust is too high, you're suspicious! That makes more sense to me. Also, your opinions on Invest aside, you need Invest results. Like it or not, Invest results are an important part of balancing a role.

Hmmm. I think Sheriff is weak and should be an actual threat to take out. But yeah the bloodlust being too high making you suspicious is a good mechanic, I like it!

Also as a clarifying thing, if the second attack of a High Bloodlust Reaver fails, does that reset the bloodlust? A little unclear.

Bloodlust resets on the second attack. 1 person you target on your night actions is the first person you attack. 1st attack successful, 2nd attack unsuccessful then your bloodlust resets, but the 1st attack was still successful.

These are mostly nitpicks, I think you need to simplify it down a bit, and deal with some of the role interactions. Overall I think the concept is strong. I typically agree with Wave on balancing stuff, but I don't think a lot of their arguments are fair. Despite that, I do agree that the role is pretty lopsided. It has the ability to eliminate half the town, but depending on the rolelist it could get shut down by a roleblock or a couple Docs running around to stop 90% of the kills. Just some consistency changes would really solidify the role in my opinion!

Let me know what you think!
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Re: Reaver (Neutral Killing)

Postby WaveAqualei » Wed Jan 26, 2022 2:24 am

TheTraitorofSalem wrote:Not even that but no role in ToS can target 3 players in a night.

Does it really matter that no role can target 3 players? It's 1 extra button, would not be that hard to implement. And I've seen other roles which would have multi-target selection. Just because no other role in TOS has something, doesn't make it bad
If the devs wanted a role that had 3 targets, Retributionist and Necromancer would've been able to use roles like Transporter by now. I didn't say it was bad because it could target three players, just saying I don't see any role being implemented with 3 targets anytime soon.

TheTraitorofSalem wrote:I agree with the Sheriff result thing, it being always suspicious is a bit sad.
And yeah, you need Invest results hun.

Sheriff is underpowered and its job should be to detect alignment. Frankly, Sheriff should be able to detect all Mafia/Coven/Neutral Killing. This actually makes the role a threat that evils will try to kill, rather then just some easy role to fake claim for everybody.

Don't call me Hun in that condescending way, I ain't ya Hun. Investigator results are not essential until a role is actually implemented. And the entire Investigator system needs a rework, so I prefer not to suggest invest results. At this stage, I do not need em.

Sheriff shouldn't be able to find all evils; if it did then it would instantly confirm people as Town, which Sheriff can already do to a large extent.
Also, I call everyone hun, I don't use it in a condescending way kjhahjksd, it's how I talk but anyways...
Yes, you do need Investigator results. If you want this role to have a shot here it's kind of guaranteed.


TheTraitorofSalem wrote:I can't answer this for you but I think if one target has defense, all attacks fail and bloodlust is reset, no matter the order.

Wrong and the way it works was specified. Targets work in order; Reaver selects 9 first (not immune), the attack is a success, Reaver selects 15 secondly (immune), bloodlust resets.
That doesn't make sense because all attacks have the same priority.

TheTraitorofSalem wrote:I think what else needs balancing is that the most of the attacks need to be instant instead of a delayed kill. Also the penalty for going to the maximum amount of bloodlust shouldn't be death, maybe you can't attack for two nights? Not sure, but that needs something else.

Nah the death is essential, its manageable, but its a minor risk. Being able to attack 3 people with the first being a Rampage and then being able to attack again, would be overpowered, even if you do have to wait two nights. The main strength of this role is to have a very strong finisher. The Reaver can go for a mass wipeout with less then 5 people left, but if he fails, then he deserves to lose. Reaver doesn't die if hes alive by himself or its a 1v1.
Death is NOT a minor risk if you're unique/solo. If you want this role to be different from the rest of the NKs I wouldn't go for the "strong finisher" way since Arso and Jugg do that already.

I suggest making this role not as much as a glass cannon, since that's what it looks like at the moment unfortunately.
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Re: Reaver (Neutral Killing)

Postby TheTraitorofSalem » Wed Jan 26, 2022 2:35 am

Retributionist should be able to use Transporter. It's just lazy mechanics that they can't.


Sheriff shouldn't be able to find all evils; if it did then it would instantly confirm people as Town, which Sheriff can already do to a large extent.


Sheriff has always been able to detect all evils in most classic Mafia games (EpicMafia, the original cardgame, Mafiascum). Sheriff cannot instantly confirm people as Town. In the current ranked game, out of 6 evils, you can only find 3 (less if Disguiser) So your argument in this case is invalid.
The way it should be played is keeping silent until you find a confirmed evil. Then you out yourself and the evil you find, maybe you get cced. Then Sheriff is actually a threat to deal with. Don't think I ever said ALL evils either... I stated NK/Mafia/Coven. And there would be expections to this with certain deception roles of course. But in general Sheriff should be able to detect all Mafia and Killing roles.

You've got this mindset that this game should only be played in 1 way (Jailor meta, all invest claims d2) when there's thousands of ways to play this game.

that doesn't make sense because all attacks have the same priority.


Makes perfect sense. You have multiple attacks which other roles do not, so your first attack is giving highest priority. Simple.

Death is NOT a minor risk if you're unique/solo. If you want this role to be different from the rest of the NKs I wouldn't go for the "strong finisher" way since Arso and Jugg do that already.


It's a minor risk dying of bloodlust. Like I said its manageable. Stop manipulating things and twisting my words, thanks.
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Re: Reaver (Neutral Killing)

Postby WaveAqualei » Wed Jan 26, 2022 3:00 am

TheTraitorofSalem wrote:Sheriff has always been able to detect all evils in most classic Mafia games (EpicMafia, the original cardgame, Mafiascum). Sheriff cannot instantly confirm people as Town. In the current ranked game, out of 6 evils, you can only find 3 (less if Disguiser) So your argument in this case is invalid.
Sheriff can confirm people as Town to an EXTENT. It depends who is dead for the most part. If GF/Mafioso are both dead, everyone else is Town besides Witch/Exe.
TheTraitorofSalem wrote:The way it should be played is keeping silent until you find a confirmed evil. Then you out yourself and the evil you find, maybe you get cced. Then Sheriff is actually a threat to deal with. Don't think I ever said ALL evils either... I stated NK/Mafia/Coven. And there would be expections to this with certain deception roles of course. But in general Sheriff should be able to detect all Mafia and Killing roles.

Mafia/NK/Coven is all evils except NE and NC, which is 6 roles (including Pest, not including Witch). Based on who you want to appear suspicious, that's 21 out of 27 "evils". Currently it's 11-18 out of 27, and that doesn't include Frames/Hexes. I think that's a fair number; Sheriff could be stronger but making GF/Arso/Necronomicon holders suspicious is not the way to go.
I'm also confused because you said NKs were too weak, yet you want to totally destroy them with Sheriff? Pick one.
TheTraitorofSalem wrote:You've got this mindset that this game should only be played in 1 way (Jailor meta, all invest claims d2) when there's thousands of ways to play this game.

TIs should be posting in Ranked anyway? That's how Town gets an early advantage. Unless you a Sheriff/LO/Tracker who finds someone innocent or gets no visits then you shouldn't be posting D2.
And I don't think the game should be played in just one way lol. I fake claim other Town roles as Jailor all the time (mainly I claim Retri but not the point here).

TheTraitorofSalem wrote: that doesn't make sense because all attacks have the same priority.

Makes perfect sense. You have multiple attacks which other roles do not, so your first attack is giving highest priority. Simple.

That's something you'll have to specify in the main post since that wasn't obvious to me nor Sal.

TheTraitorofSalem wrote: Death is NOT a minor risk if you're unique/solo. If you want this role to be different from the rest of the NKs I wouldn't go for the "strong finisher" way since Arso and Jugg do that already.

It's a minor risk dying of bloodlust. Like I said its manageable. Stop manipulating things and twisting my words, thanks.

Miss thing... you LITERALLY said that Reaver's main strength was for it to have a strong finisher. Please read what you send before you send it because I don't have time to correct you.
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Re: Reaver (Neutral Killing)

Postby TheTraitorofSalem » Wed Jan 26, 2022 3:16 am

Sheriff can confirm people as Town to an EXTENT. It depends who is dead for the most part. If GF/Mafioso are both dead, everyone else is Town besides Witch/Exe.


I make a point and then you find something else to nitpick at. You stated that Sheriff can confirm town members to a large extent. Which it cannot. Firstly, theres 3 evils out of 15 players that it cannot detect. The Sheriff has a 20% chance to be wrong about "Your target is NS" even more with Disguisers in the game. Then you've got 2 people claiming Sheriff who ain't, lowering any tangible evidence that someone is confirmed?

Mafia/NK/Coven is all evils except NE and NC, which is 6 roles (including Pest, not including Witch). Based on who you want to appear suspicious, that's 21 out of 27 "evils". Currently it's 11-18 out of 27, and that doesn't include Frames/Hexes. I think that's a fair number; Sheriff could be stronger but making GF/Arso/Necronomicon holders suspicious is not the way to go.
I'm also confused because you said NKs were too weak, yet you want to totally destroy them with Sheriff? Pick one.


I'll agree on Arson as it takes awhile for them to directly kill. But Juggernauts, SK and WWs should 100% be suspicious. So should all Mafia and Coven. Mafia and Coven have the resources to deal with threats and Sheriff should be a threat. What's the way to go to make Sheriff stronger then if you don't want to allow him to see more roles? Sheriff is a basic concept, you check, you see if someone is evil or not, there's no way to change that.
Don't think I ever specifically said that NKS were too weak, once again you're twisting my words to your own advantage

TIs should be posting in Ranked anyway? That's how Town gets an early advantage. Unless you a Sheriff/LO/Tracker who finds someone innocent or gets no visits then you shouldn't be posting D2.
And I don't think the game should be played in just one way lol. I fake claim other Town roles as Jailor all the time (mainly I claim Retri but not the point here).


Thats one way to play the game and there's been a meta around it. But it is not always optiminal and not exactly fun either. My point remains, its not the only way to play the game. Look at EM back in the day.

That's something you'll have to specify in the main post since that wasn't obvious to me nor Sal.


It was stated in the original post under Additional Info, so don't have a dig at me because you failed to spot that.

-The Reaver will attack in order of targets selected. Failing the first attack will reset your bloodlust, which will cancel out any further attacks for the night.

Miss thing... you LITERALLY said that Reaver's main strength was for it to have a strong finisher. Please read what you send before you send it because I don't have time to correct you.


Mr*
You have absolutely nothing to correct me on. I'm correctly you and then you're ignoring my points and trying to find discrepancies or making them up yourself. And like I stated, its main strength was to have a powerful finisher. You get to target 3 players with a single use Powerful Rampage. You have the possibility to wipe out 4-5 town members at least. That's a strong finisher, but if you fail to kill all but 1 other player, then you die. Like stated, the Reaver is immune to Fatal bloodlust if it is 1v1 or he is the last alive.
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Re: Reaver (Neutral Killing)

Postby WaveAqualei » Wed Jan 26, 2022 3:30 am

TheTraitorofSalem wrote:
Sheriff can confirm people as Town to an EXTENT. It depends who is dead for the most part. If GF/Mafioso are both dead, everyone else is Town besides Witch/Exe.


I make a point and then you find something else to nitpick at. You stated that Sheriff can confirm town members to a large extent. Which it cannot. Firstly, theres 3 evils out of 15 players that it cannot detect. The Sheriff has a 20% chance to be wrong about "Your target is NS" even more with Disguisers in the game. Then you've got 2 people claiming Sheriff who ain't, lowering any tangible evidence that someone is confirmed?

Sheriff does not need to be majorly buffed since its notifications are very black and white: your target is innocent or suspicious. If you die you practically confirm anyone in your will as good/evil. Investigator, Lookout, and Tracker can't do this as much since LO can see more than one person visit, Invest gets more than 2 roles in their results, and Tracker tracking someone visiting a person who died doesn't make them 100% evil.

TheTraitorofSalem wrote:
Mafia/NK/Coven is all evils except NE and NC, which is 6 roles (including Pest, not including Witch). Based on who you want to appear suspicious, that's 21 out of 27 "evils". Currently it's 11-18 out of 27, and that doesn't include Frames/Hexes. I think that's a fair number; Sheriff could be stronger but making GF/Arso/Necronomicon holders suspicious is not the way to go.
I'm also confused because you said NKs were too weak, yet you want to totally destroy them with Sheriff? Pick one.


I'll agree on Arson as it takes awhile for them to directly kill. But Juggernauts, SK and WWs should 100% be suspicious. So should all Mafia and Coven. Mafia and Coven have the resources to deal with threats and Sheriff should be a threat. What's the way to go to make Sheriff stronger then if you don't want to allow him to see more roles? Sheriff is a basic concept, you check, you see if someone is evil or not, there's no way to change that.
Don't think I ever specifically said that NKS were too weak, once again you're twisting my words to your own advantage

There's nothing I'm gaining from arguing with a stranger on the forums.
WW used to be super weak with it appearing suspicious all game. Godfather and Necronomicon wielders should also be innocent to the Sheriff; Godfather is literally Mafioso with Basic defense, Detection immunity, and a different Investigator result.

TheTraitorofSalem wrote:
TIs should be posting in Ranked anyway? That's how Town gets an early advantage. Unless you a Sheriff/LO/Tracker who finds someone innocent or gets no visits then you shouldn't be posting D2.
And I don't think the game should be played in just one way lol. I fake claim other Town roles as Jailor all the time (mainly I claim Retri but not the point here).


Thats one way to play the game and there's been a meta around it. But it is not always optiminal and not exactly fun either. My point remains, its not the only way to play the game. Look at EM back in the day.

If coming up with creative plays isn't fun to you then pop off I guess.
If I get transported as Veteran I whisper whoever I was transported with to claim Veteran and I'll claim whatever they are. Things like that are fun for me, but again that's not the point of this discussion.

TheTraitorofSalem wrote:
That's something you'll have to specify in the main post since that wasn't obvious to me nor Sal.


It was stated in the original post under Additional Info, so don't have a dig at me because you failed to spot that.

-The Reaver will attack in order of targets selected. Failing the first attack will reset your bloodlust, which will cancel out any further attacks for the night.

It wasn't a dig... I'm saying you should edit your post if you want to add changes or make things easier to understand? That's not a dig, sorry if it seemed like it.

TheTraitorofSalem wrote:
Miss thing... you LITERALLY said that Reaver's main strength was for it to have a strong finisher. Please read what you send before you send it because I don't have time to correct you.


Mr*
You have absolutely nothing to correct me on. I'm correctly you and then you're ignoring my points and trying to find discrepancies or making them up yourself. And like I stated, its main strength was to have a powerful finisher. You get to target 3 players with a single use Powerful Rampage. You have the possibility to wipe out 4-5 town members at least. That's a strong finisher, but if you fail to kill all but 1 other player, then you die. Like stated, the Reaver is immune to Fatal bloodlust if it is 1v1 or he is the last alive.

It's really not a "strong finisher" if like 16 roles can stop it from killing lol.
Also... "miss thing" is LGBTQ+ slang; I didn't call you a woman.
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Re: Reaver (Neutral Killing)

Postby Salocin481 » Wed Jan 26, 2022 3:46 am

TheTraitorofSalem wrote:Thank you a lot for the great feedback!! I will try to touch up on this role very shortly.


Any time :)

TheTraitorofSalem wrote: Hmm, ain't all killing roles annihalated by Jailor? And all expect SK annihalated by Escorts? I'm sure the player could handle a reset, they can get back up to High bloodlust fairly quickly. If they're getting roleblocked everynight, then you're fucked anyway. Escort annihalates Arsonist specifically.


WW rampages at home when they're roleblocked or Jailor, SK can stab Jailor as well, and Arso douses the Escort or Jailor (Juggy is kinda screwed tho lol). What I meant by this is that one stray roleblock/Jail resets your bloodlust and you end up missing out on 3-4 potential kills, and you don't have a fall back in case this happens. I think the penalty is a little steep. I don't really have any good suggestions as to what to do to solve the issue though, just pointing out that the other NKs (besides Jugg lol) at least have some tool against those two.

TheTraitorofSalem wrote: The Doctor thing is arguable and usually there's not enough Doctors to make any difference when a Poisoners in the game. And when the Reaver can attack multiple times, it becomes even harder to heal.


Yeah, but it leads to rolelist swing. When there IS a Doctor in game, Poisoner gets shut down. I think something similar would happen with Reaver, where you're crossing fingers hoping for no Doc, which is never fun tbh. It would be super lame to play Reaver and you get stuck between an Escort and Doctor and it's out of your control is all I'm saying :P

TheTraitorofSalem wrote:Hmmm. I think Sheriff is weak and should be an actual threat to take out. But yeah the bloodlust being too high making you suspicious is a good mechanic, I like it!


Yeah, that's a Sheriff issue. Sheriff in its current state is underpowered, but I can't think of a way of buffing Sheriff without making it too oppressive over NKs who currently don't need nerfs and without wildly changing the role. Probably up to smarter people than me :) Glad you like the idea though!

As for Invest... I do think you need Invest results. Invest results are important to the role's balance, because it informs what "safer" claims for the role is. Weak invest results (like WW or Jugg) can really tank the strength of a role. It leaves roles in a bind with predictable claim space, and can even help other evils push the NK out easier with fake Invest claims. Invest results with more breathing room (Like Medium results) can make a role be more adaptable and reliable. Worth considering where to put Reaver, even if you think Invest should be changed.

TheTraitorofSalem wrote:Bloodlust resets on the second attack. 1 person you target on your night actions is the first person you attack. 1st attack successful, 2nd attack unsuccessful then your bloodlust resets, but the 1st attack was still successful.


So the order of kills matters? Makes you think more about who you're clicking on and in what order instead of just going randomly. Maybe touch up the wording of that in role, but keep the mechanic the same, I like it :)
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