A little collected bundle of Mafia adjustment proposals.

Suggest new roles or changes to current roles for the game here.

A little collected bundle of Mafia adjustment proposals.

Postby SilverCruz » Sat Jun 19, 2021 6:55 pm

Here we go. I'm sure most of these been discussed before, but I'm just collecting them all in one spot.

Godfather - Removed. Now exists as a buff which is applied to a random member of the Mafia at the start of the round, and which confers Detection Immunity and Basic Defense. If you are lynched the fact that you were the Godfather will be shown as public knowledge. (Bodyguard and Arsonist are moved to other investigation brackets)

Mafioso - Removed. Instead, any member of the Mafia can declare an attack at night at the expense of their Night Action. The attacks will be attempted in the order they are declared, and the first one that is not roleblocked will be executed, while the others will result in no action (more actions means less chance of getting roleblocked for that night, but less actions per night). Also, when only one member of the Mafia remains, they will receive Last Stand Roleblock Immunity to prevent them from being deadlocked by Escorts.

Ambusher - You can now only be caught setting up an ambush by Lookouts (who will see your ambush independently of their normal three visitor limit), but they are also now vulnerable to Disguisers through this. (Example - You are Ambusher. Disguiser disguises you as Ann Hibbins. You ambush at Jailor Claim and attack Bodyguard. Lookout sees Ann Hibbins as having set up the ambush rather than you)

Disguiser - You are now completely invisible to Spies by default, though you have a button that will allow you to allow Spies to see you visit a member of the Mafia. For best results, use it sparingly and coordinate with your team to create a plausible claim.

Forger/Janitor - You may now target members of the Mafia at will.

Framer - You may choose to frame your target as any investigative bracket. Note that Survivor/Vampire Hunter/Amnesiac and Sheriff/Executioner/Werewolf will still appear as Suspicious to Sheriffs, so careful with those. You may also now target players which have left the game (Thus - You can attempt to trick Spies into thinking they were forged).

Hypnotist - If your visit would result in conflicting feedback (I.E. using Controlled on a Sheriff who receives Innocent feedback), you will not execute your visit.

Blackmailer/Consigliere/Consort - Fine as is. Consort would benefit from the Jailor losing its roleblock if it does not successfully execute, but that's more of a Jailor thing than a Consort thing.

Lineup - Godfather and Mafioso are replaced by static Ambusher and Disguiser in both Classic and Ranked. This is to directly strike against the Jailor Meta by ensuring that the Mafia will always have an opportunity to counterattack a genuine Jailor claim.

Also, bonus.

Executioner - If your target leaves the game during the day, they will no longer appear as having disconnected during that phase to anyone except you, and may still be voted up normally. Whether they are lynched or not, they will appear to everyone else as having quit the game at a random time midway through the following night. (If your target quits on Day or Night 1, this will not occur until Night 2, and they will not commit suicide between Night 1 and Day 2)
I know what I'm doing, generally, but I have no grace at all when things start to spin out of control.

I'd like to address the latter part, but I wouldn't know the first thing about that.
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Re: A little collected bundle of Mafia adjustment proposals.

Postby syjfwbaobfwl » Sat Jun 19, 2021 10:05 pm

SilverCruz wrote:Here we go. I'm sure most of these been discussed before, but I'm just collecting them all in one spot.

Godfather - Removed. Now exists as a buff which is applied to a random member of the Mafia at the start of the round, and which confers Detection Immunity and Basic Defense. If you are lynched the fact that you were the Godfather will be shown as public knowledge. (Bodyguard and Arsonist are moved to other investigation brackets)

Not a fan of that, generally in tmk these 2 are reworked rather than removed

Mafioso - Removed. Instead, any member of the Mafia can declare an attack at night at the expense of their Night Action. The attacks will be attempted in the order they are declared, and the first one that is not roleblocked will be executed, while the others will result in no action (more actions means less chance of getting roleblocked for that night, but less actions per night). Also, when only one member of the Mafia remains, they will receive Last Stand Roleblock Immunity to prevent them from being deadlocked by Escorts.
Same as above

Ambusher - You can now only be caught setting up an ambush by Lookouts (who will see your ambush independently of their normal three visitor limit), but they are also now vulnerable to Disguisers through this. (Example - You are Ambusher. Disguiser disguises you as Ann Hibbins. You ambush at Jailor Claim and attack Bodyguard. Lookout sees Ann Hibbins as having set up the ambush rather than you)
NO, thats overpowered af

Disguiser - You are now completely invisible to Spies by default, though you have a button that will allow you to allow Spies to see you visit a member of the Mafia. For best results, use it sparingly and coordinate with your team to create a plausible claim.
If we allow framer to decieve spy then this will not be a problem anymore

Forger/Janitor - You may now target members of the Mafia at will.
Yeah why not

Framer - You may choose to frame your target as any investigative bracket. Note that Survivor/Vampire Hunter/Amnesiac and Sheriff/Executioner/Werewolf will still appear as Suspicious to Sheriffs, so careful with those. You may also now target players which have left the game (Thus - You can attempt to trick Spies into thinking they were forged).
its not even close to enough, there are still other 2 (4 in coven) TI that cant be affected by this role

Hypnotist - If your visit would result in conflicting feedback (I.E. using Controlled on a Sheriff who receives Innocent feedback), you will not execute your visit.
I would prefer the message not being performed rather than the visit, but sure

Blackmailer/Consigliere/Consort - Fine as is. Consort would benefit from the Jailor losing its roleblock if it does not successfully execute, but that's more of a Jailor thing than a Consort thing.

Lineup - Godfather and Mafioso are replaced by static Ambusher and Disguiser in both Classic and Ranked. This is to directly strike against the Jailor Meta by ensuring that the Mafia will always have an opportunity to counterattack a genuine Jailor claim.

Also, bonus.

Executioner - If your target leaves the game during the day, they will no longer appear as having disconnected during that phase to anyone except you, and may still be voted up normally. Whether they are lynched or not, they will appear to everyone else as having quit the game at a random time midway through the following night. (If your target quits on Day or Night 1, this will not occur until Night 2, and they will not commit suicide between Night 1 and Day 2)
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Re: A little collected bundle of Mafia adjustment proposals.

Postby SilverCruz » Sat Jun 19, 2021 10:21 pm

You say "generally these two are reworked", but here's a question. Why does keeping them around matter? How does it help the game to do that?
I know what I'm doing, generally, but I have no grace at all when things start to spin out of control.

I'd like to address the latter part, but I wouldn't know the first thing about that.
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Re: A little collected bundle of Mafia adjustment proposals.

Postby Soulshade55r » Sun Jun 20, 2021 2:52 pm

SilverCruz wrote:You say "generally these two are reworked", but here's a question. Why does keeping them around matter? How does it help the game to do that?

Because removing roles outright is a thing the devs stated they don't want to do.

Its clearly better to rework something then to outright remove it.

Mafioso has a lot of good rework suggestions, Gf could be kinda annoying to rework/rebalanced.

Personally I love the idea of having 4 mafia with unique abilites instead of two roles taking up what could be a factional vote slot
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Spoiler: Town: Jailor
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Re: A little collected bundle of Mafia adjustment proposals.

Postby SilverCruz » Sun Jun 20, 2021 4:10 pm

They're playing a semantics game. Retributionist V1 was removed. Disguiser V1 and V2 were removed. Those are cases where the original "versions" of those roles could exist completely independently of the modern versions without being redundant because they were fundamentally different.

The fact as I see it is that Godfather and Mafioso as they exist are not healthy for the game since they do the same thing, act only out of obligation, and clog up the Mafia's possible actions per night because of an overpowered and unfair circumstance that should just be removed in the first place. Any attempts to "retool" them would just be making new roles from scratch and sticking an old name to those, so that's just not an important thing to worry about.

As for Ambusher, Jailor Meta just needs to get shot. Even if you keep the call-out but just make it vulnerable to Disguiser interference and just so happen to replace the Godfather and Mafioso with a static Ambusher and Disguiser, that'd be sufficient. Play stupid games, win stupid prizes. Reveal yourself as the intentionally overpowered role that the game is balanced around for some ridiculous reason, it is only right that this does not benefit you. Yet, at present, it does. And that's nonsense.
I know what I'm doing, generally, but I have no grace at all when things start to spin out of control.

I'd like to address the latter part, but I wouldn't know the first thing about that.
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Re: A little collected bundle of Mafia adjustment proposals.

Postby Soulshade55r » Sun Jun 20, 2021 4:25 pm

SilverCruz wrote:They're playing a semantics game. Retributionist V1 was removed. Disguiser V1 and V2 were removed. Those are cases where the original "versions" of those roles could exist completely independently of the modern versions without being redundant because they were fundamentally different.

The fact as I see it is that Godfather and Mafioso as they exist are not healthy for the game since they do the same thing, act only out of obligation, and clog up the Mafia's possible actions per night because of an overpowered and unfair circumstance that should just be removed in the first place. Any attempts to "retool" them would just be making new roles from scratch and sticking an old name to those, so that's just not an important thing to worry about.

As for Ambusher, Jailor Meta just needs to get shot. Even if you keep the call-out but just make it vulnerable to Disguiser interference and just so happen to replace the Godfather and Mafioso with a static Ambusher and Disguiser, that'd be sufficient. Play stupid games, win stupid prizes. Reveal yourself as the intentionally overpowered role that the game is balanced around for some ridiculous reason, it is only right that this does not benefit you. Yet, at present, it does. And that's nonsense.

And we can actually change Jailor meta without having to remove GF/Mafioso

Sure sometimes reworking a role into something new is needed which is needed for mafioso and GF rather then completely removing roles from the game, yes it's important to worry about repurposing new roles IMO, directly removing content without having something to replace it in the first place is a bad idea and TOS has always reworked roles that needed to be changed from the ground up the devs aren't just going to remove mafioso/gf from the game, they're against that; Also not going into the scrolls, cosmetics ect. That have existed for the roles. Also issues like spy seeing disguiser is actually a spy problem with the way spy currently works in the game.

Static Disguiser and ambusher isn't actually needed in order to "remove jailor meta" As we can actually I don't know give certain roles like mafioso or gf a way to get around protections once or twice, we can implement evil roles that see visitors, we can implement a system where tps can't protect the same person twice in a row.

Your changes only tend to remove Varity from the random mafia as you are taking two slots that are normally random mafia and putting them into static slots while outright removing two roles instead of overhauling/reworking them into something else. While a bad mafia role like the framer for example will generally be stuck on killing duty

So yes I'm not going to really agree with your suggestion because it might benefit anti-jailor meta but it doesn't do it in a effective way.
Favourite Roles (To play)
Spoiler: Town: Jailor
Mafia: Consort
NE: Witch
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Coven: Necromancer
NC: Pirate
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Re: A little collected bundle of Mafia adjustment proposals.

Postby SilverCruz » Sun Jun 20, 2021 5:42 pm

"directly removing content without having something to replace it"

Godfather is a status buff now. Mafioso is absorbed into the rest of the Mafia roles. Simple, they've been replaced by the Godfather buff and buffing the rest of the Mafia respectively. As for the Godfather/Mafioso Scrolls that currently exist, turn them into Joker scrolls that you can use for any role you want, and just don't reissue those Joker scrolls.

Literally do anything about the damn Jailor. Though, I just keep forgetting that BMG doesn't actually care, they only want to leave the game open so Socrates gives them more ad bucks.

Being stuck on killing duty as a Framer? Sounds like you're threatening me with a good time since framing is so bad.

BMG - "NO JAILOR HARDCOUNTERS!!!"
Also BMG - "Yes, it's acceptable for Sheriff and Investigator to have a hard counter that is itself hard countered by Spy and which has no effect on Lookout."
I know what I'm doing, generally, but I have no grace at all when things start to spin out of control.

I'd like to address the latter part, but I wouldn't know the first thing about that.
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Re: A little collected bundle of Mafia adjustment proposals.

Postby Soulshade55r » Sun Jun 20, 2021 6:36 pm

SilverCruz wrote:"directly removing content without having something to replace it"

Godfather is a status buff now. Mafioso is absorbed into the rest of the Mafia roles. Simple, they've been replaced by the Godfather buff and buffing the rest of the Mafia respectively. As for the Godfather/Mafioso Scrolls that currently exist, turn them into Joker scrolls that you can use for any role you want, and just don't reissue those Joker scrolls.

Literally do anything about the damn Jailor. Though, I just keep forgetting that BMG doesn't actually care, they only want to leave the game open so Socrates gives them more ad bucks.

Being stuck on killing duty as a Framer? Sounds like you're threatening me with a good time since framing is so bad.

BMG - "NO JAILOR HARDCOUNTERS!!!"
Also BMG - "Yes, it's acceptable for Sheriff and Investigator to have a hard counter that is itself hard countered by Spy and which has no effect on Lookout."


Having direct hard counters are generally always a bad idea lol... Indirectly nerfing the jailor meta by giving scum abilities that have purpose outside countering "the jailor meta!" which there's a lot more simple ways to counter it.

Framer being stuck on killing duty is more of a issue of framer being a shit role that has no ability to work against half the Ti's... the roles it's meant to trick.
I'd argue that spy is currently a very broken and dumb role right now and that lookout can be fixed by having focus frames.

Like I said removing content Mafioso/Godfather instead of trying to replace the roles is removing from the game instead of adding/fixing things EVEN. if you can argue it's easier the coming up with reworks It's a lot better to add/change content then remove it... I feel like I can't really explain this over and over.

As for the future of tos? meh i think the games likely going to be left in the dirt I think it has so many problems still that need to be fixed; Reworking the Ranked role list to not have outcomes of the game be decided by D2/D3 would be fantastic, but would require nerfing town roles in general while buffing mafia but reducing NE by one, I think we've just been left with a pretty broken ranked as of now. As for other game modes all any is a pile of shit to play for me, Most of coven is just dead and custom is dead.
Favourite Roles (To play)
Spoiler: Town: Jailor
Mafia: Consort
NE: Witch
NB: Guardian Angel
Coven: Necromancer
NC: Pirate
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Re: A little collected bundle of Mafia adjustment proposals.

Postby SilverCruz » Sun Jun 20, 2021 8:41 pm

And BMG can't even be bothered to dig up one of the old Ranked Role Lists and just cram that in there as a fixed role list to go between Classic and Unranked for the sake of breaking up the monotony by having SOMETHING with a Neutral Killing bracket.

Plus, think of it like this way. Let's say we have a theoretical game. In this game, weapons break, and they break fast. So there's a class who has the ability to fix the weapons of anyone who happens to be nearby, and that's the only unique thing this class does.

Don't you think that theoretical game would go so much smoother if that class and the weapon breaking were both thrown out? It's kind of like that with Mafioso. The only reason Mafioso exists is to prevent the Mafia from getting deadlocked on Night 1 or something like that. Instead of bothering with that, it'd be much more to the point to just get rid of the deadlocks and Mafioso to begin with.

And I'll tell you, I'm really not enthusiastic about Escort still being a role that exists, and I'm also really unenthusiastic with how underutilized the PTR is. If you asked me, I'd seriously consider just removing the Escort too because it's really only good at disrupting the Town and deadlocking (and in extreme cases, in an Un/Ranked role list, if there are two Consorts it literally cannot do anything to help the town except deadlock), and just remove the "Roleblocked" and "Controlled" messages and replace them both with a generic "You're not sure what happened last night." message.

A compromise, of course, would be to fork a bunch of stuff with Custom Rules. Say that Jailor did lose his roleblock when not executing, plus Jail Armor being thrown out. You could add a Custom Rule that gives them back. Say you did remove Escort from fixed role lists. You could leave it as a static role and add a Custom Rule that adds it back to the Town Support bracket. You could do similar with Retributionist V1, Mayor V1, Spy V1, and Disguiser V1 and V2. Bring them back as special roles distinct from their modern incarnations, but make them only present in the random brackets relevant to them in Custom if a box is checked off to keep them out of Un/Ranked (and maybe make Disguiser V1 erase the target's Will, cough cough). You could likewise do that with Godfather and Mafioso, as well as having a "Classic Mafia" Custom Rule that reverts it from allowing any member of the Mafia to declare an attack to how it is now.

Custom itself would also benefit from throwing out the random lobby system and just allowing people to see all the Custom lobbies that (in theory) exist along with their role lists so they can choose what they're looking for, or choose to make a new one if nothing suits them. Random lobbies works well enough for fixed role lists, but not so much Custom. Of course the playerbase being so anemic is a snag in this actually coming out to actually matter.
I know what I'm doing, generally, but I have no grace at all when things start to spin out of control.

I'd like to address the latter part, but I wouldn't know the first thing about that.
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Re: A little collected bundle of Mafia adjustment proposals.

Postby Benn3 » Mon Jun 21, 2021 5:29 pm

SilverCruz wrote:Here we go. I'm sure most of these been discussed before, but I'm just collecting them all in one spot.

Godfather - Removed. Now exists as a buff which is applied to a random member of the Mafia at the start of the round, and which confers Detection Immunity and Basic Defense. If you are lynched the fact that you were the Godfather will be shown as public knowledge. (Bodyguard and Arsonist are moved to other investigation brackets)

Does that Mafia member keep their ability as whatever role they got in the first place? If all Mafia members can kill, that means the only difference somebody being Godfather makes is them being granted detection immunity and Basic defense, but I'm okay with that. This would be better than removing Godfather entirely, but I still think Godfather should be in an investigative result. They should also be able to order who they want to have kill if they want to. You can't really argue that it's removing the role since it's like PB except you transform immediately.

Mafioso - Removed. Instead, any member of the Mafia can declare an attack at night at the expense of their Night Action. The attacks will be attempted in the order they are declared, and the first one that is not roleblocked will be executed, while the others will result in no action (more actions means less chance of getting roleblocked for that night, but less actions per night). Also, when only one member of the Mafia remains, they will receive Last Stand Roleblock Immunity to prevent them from being deadlocked by Escorts.

This isn't a bad idea, but I still don't think they should outright remove Mafioso. I think this idea should stay, but Mafioso also stays, as a non killing role that does something else related to weapons/killing, like enhancing attacks or something like that.

Ambusher - You can now only be caught setting up an ambush by Lookouts (who will see your ambush independently of their normal three visitor limit), but they are also now vulnerable to Disguisers through this. (Example - You are Ambusher. Disguiser disguises you as Ann Hibbins. You ambush at Jailor Claim and attack Bodyguard. Lookout sees Ann Hibbins as having set up the ambush rather than you)

I've wanted something like this for a while, it helps remove the Jailor meta and makes Disguiser more useful. However, I feel like Disguiser in this case should have a limit on how many times they can disguise an Ambusher to help balance it more though.

Disguiser - You are now completely invisible to Spies by default, though you have a button that will allow you to allow Spies to see you visit a member of the Mafia. For best results, use it sparingly and coordinate with your team to create a plausible claim.

Don't have any issues with this.

Forger/Janitor - You may now target members of the Mafia at will.

I've also wanted this, but it begs the question, if a Vigilante shoots a forged Mafia member, and they are forged as Town, will a Vigilante lose their bullets and commit suicide?

Framer - You may choose to frame your target as any investigative bracket. Note that Survivor/Vampire Hunter/Amnesiac and Sheriff/Executioner/Werewolf will still appear as Suspicious to Sheriffs, so careful with those. You may also now target players which have left the game (Thus - You can attempt to trick Spies into thinking they were forged).

I feel like they should only be able to choose investigative results with Mafia members in them, however I also think it should affect Psychic visions, possibly making them have three good people in an evil vision. But, I still feel like this isn't enough, that they need another ability to really be useful.

Hypnotist - If your visit would result in conflicting feedback (I.E. using Controlled on a Sheriff who receives Innocent feedback), you will not execute your visit.

I'm fine with this. Makes the role-blocking one more useful. I also think that they should be able to target 2 people, making Transporters not as easily confirmed and being able to claim Doctor more easily(also fix the poisoned message). But, it might be a bit too overpowered.

Blackmailer/Consigliere/Consort - Fine as is. Consort would benefit from the Jailor losing its roleblock if it does not successfully execute, but that's more of a Jailor thing than a Consort thing.

Lineup - Godfather and Mafioso are replaced by static Ambusher and Disguiser in both Classic and Ranked. This is to directly strike against the Jailor Meta by ensuring that the Mafia will always have an opportunity to counterattack a genuine Jailor claim.

I'm assuming this is if Mafioso is removed and Godfather is a buff. Mafioso should be reworked as I said before, into maybe a Mafia Support or Deception. Going by if Mafioso is reworked, I agree with this.

Also, bonus.

Executioner - If your target leaves the game during the day, they will no longer appear as having disconnected during that phase to anyone except you, and may still be voted up normally. Whether they are lynched or not, they will appear to everyone else as having quit the game at a random time midway through the following night. (If your target quits on Day or Night 1, this will not occur until Night 2, and they will not commit suicide between Night 1 and Day 2)


Meh. This means that you automatically win if your target leaves essentially. It's already easy enough to win as an Executioner, but eh. One change I want with Executioner though is if they are turned into a Jester, they keep their defense. I'm not sure with this one though.
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Re: A little collected bundle of Mafia adjustment proposals.

Postby SilverCruz » Mon Jun 21, 2021 5:55 pm

Godfather - Yes. If a Consort is the Godfather, then they can still roleblock. The Godfather buff overwriting that role's original investigative result could be considered, but there's not enough traction to poll on it. I made a more in depth topic about Godfather and Mafioso being removed elsewhere, once.

Mafioso - You have to remember that at that point you're just clinging to the name of Mafioso. If you made a Mafioso that isn't just a straight attacker, it wouldn't really be a Mafioso anymore. A possibility would be to just keep Mafioso and make it able to attack concurrently with a non-Mafioso's attack, giving them two kills that night, but that would be way too swingy and it'd probably have to be intentionally excluded from Un/Ranked at that junction.

Ambusher - I could see Disguiser getting limited disguises on an Ambusher specifically, sure. Even if Ambusher were only changed to still get called out to all visitors, but the call-out is affected by being disguised, then a limit would probably be justified.

Disguiser - Nothing to respond to.

Forger/Janitor - The Vigilante would not, therefore forging a member of the Mafia who is shot by a Vigilante as a member of the Town would be a rather short-sighted move. Better to forge them as Jester or Witch instead provided neither of those roles have visibly gotten knocked out so that the attack remains plausible. The more important aspect to this, I see, is being able to silence Mafia quits as long as a sockpuppet system is not implemented.

Framer - I don't know anything about Psychics, and it is true that Framer could use more because roles that rely on the existence of other roles to act should not exist (Disguiser only weasels its way out of being as bad as Framer because of the Jailor Meta being so bad, but it's still not good because it can't deal with Bodyguards and/or Doctors), but improving a little is better than not improving at all.

Lineup - That's correct, that's assuming Godfather and Mafioso are both outright gone.

Executioner - Better to automatically win than your target get pardoned unfairly because they quit.
I know what I'm doing, generally, but I have no grace at all when things start to spin out of control.

I'd like to address the latter part, but I wouldn't know the first thing about that.
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