Town Protective Tweaking

Suggest new roles or changes to current roles for the game here.

Town Protective Tweaking

Postby SilverCruz » Fri Jun 11, 2021 2:57 am

- Bodyguard is now Unique.

- Bodyguard/Godfather/Arsonist Investigation bracket is dissolved, and the Investigation brackets are updated to move them around. (I'm not getting specific on this one, use your imagination)

- Doctor can now heal the revealed Mayor again.

- A single Doctor can only successfully heal a single target once. The second attack will take them out anyway unless they are healed by a different Doctor or protected by some other means (choosing to heal someone who does not get attacked that night doesn't count). If two Doctors heal the same target on a night where that target is attacked, one will not execute their action and will not be informed that their target was attacked. The Doctor who heals is chosen randomly to prevent the other Doctor from being able to file down who it might be.

- Doctor's self-heal can now be reused if it does not block an attack.

Message - "You target was attacked last night, and succumbed to their injuries despite your efforts." (Occurs when your target is attacked if you already healed them before))

But why?
1 - Bodyguard is already kind of an overpowered Role that's a Town Killing in all but name, serving as a Town Ambusher (yes, I know Bodyguard came first, shhh) that only attacks Killing roles, which in turn makes it much, much less volatile than Vigilante or Veteran. It's just unfair to the Mafia when there are two, or even worse three or four Bodyguards, and I feel there should only be one of them at max because of how much damage they can do compared to a Doctor. A one-for-one where the Town loses one and the Mafia loses one is always much, much worse for the Mafia, and a round where the Mafia can be theoretically wiped out by nothing but Bodyguards is completely asinine.

2 - Godfather and Arsonist would get screwed being in a bracket that consists of two Evils and a Unique role, so it cannot stay as it is if Bodyguard is Unique.

3 - The healing block is not necessary with Point 4.

4 - Two things here. One is that a Doctor who knows who the Bodyguard or another Doctor is can be a massive problem for the Mafia, since two Doctors healing each other are invincible to the Mafia (or anything without an Unstoppable attack for that matter) without a Consort to stop one of them and a Doctor healing a Bodyguard who is protecting the Doctor can only be safely diffused by a Consort or an Ambusher visiting the Bodyguard when Consorts and Ambushers are not a given. Two is the Jailor Meta. Making Bodyguard unique and giving Doctor a strict cap on how many times it can heal one target would harshly damage the Jailor Meta because it would introduce some actual risk to it. A Mafia with a Disguiser can execute an attack on the Jailor without being caught by a Lookout, and now not only is Bodyguard unique so if it's gone there's not gonna be another one (especially devastating if it got nailed directly instead of getting to counterattack), Doctors can't save the Jailor forever anymore, so the Jailor can get hammered down by force.

5 - Compensation for 4.
I know what I'm doing, generally, but I have no grace at all when things start to spin out of control.

I'd like to address the latter part, but I wouldn't know the first thing about that.
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Re: Town Protective Tweaking

Postby Obituary » Fri Jun 11, 2021 7:09 am

SilverCruz wrote:- Bodyguard is now Unique.

- Bodyguard/Godfather/Arsonist Investigation bracket is dissolved, and the Investigation brackets are updated to move them around. (I'm not getting specific on this one, use your imagination)

- Doctor can now heal the revealed Mayor again. Yes, I would like to see this as well

- A single Doctor can only successfully heal a single target once. The second attack will take them out anyway unless they are healed by a different Doctor or protected by some other means (choosing to heal someone who does not get attacked that night doesn't count). If two Doctors heal the same target on a night where that target is attacked, one will not execute their action and will not be informed that their target was attacked. The Doctor who heals is chosen randomly to prevent the other Doctor from being able to file down who it might be. Meh Doctor getting two heals on the same target doesn't happen that often, dont really think this ones necessary

- Doctor's self-heal can now be reused if it does not block an attack. Most of the other ideas are reasonable but you should reconsider this one. Most players are very selfish and would just heal themselves every single night until they are attacked. That takes absolutely no skill whatsoever, predicting when you will get attacked as TP at least takes skill. And besides it would increase the chance of Mafia losing a kill per night for no reason.

Message - "You target was attacked last night, and succumbed to their injuries despite your efforts." (Occurs when your target is attacked if you already healed them before))

But why?
1 - Bodyguard is already kind of an overpowered Role that's a Town Killing in all but name, serving as a Town Ambusher (yes, I know Bodyguard came first, shhh) that only attacks Killing roles, which in turn makes it much, much less volatile than Vigilante or Veteran. It's just unfair to the Mafia when there are two, or even worse three or four Bodyguards, and I feel there should only be one of them at max because of how much damage they can do compared to a Doctor. A one-for-one where the Town loses one and the Mafia loses one is always much, much worse for the Mafia, and a round where the Mafia can be theoretically wiped out by nothing but Bodyguards is completely asinine.

2 - Godfather and Arsonist would get screwed being in a bracket that consists of two Evils and a Unique role, so it cannot stay as it is if Bodyguard is Unique.

3 - The healing block is not necessary with Point 4.

4 - Two things here. One is that a Doctor who knows who the Bodyguard or another Doctor is can be a massive problem for the Mafia, since two Doctors healing each other are invincible to the Mafia (or anything without an Unstoppable attack for that matter) without a Consort to stop one of them and a Doctor healing a Bodyguard who is protecting the Doctor can only be safely diffused by a Consort or an Ambusher visiting the Bodyguard when Consorts and Ambushers are not a given. Two is the Jailor Meta. Making Bodyguard unique and giving Doctor a strict cap on how many times it can heal one target would harshly damage the Jailor Meta because it would introduce some actual risk to it. A Mafia with a Disguiser can execute an attack on the Jailor without being caught by a Lookout, and now not only is Bodyguard unique so if it's gone there's not gonna be another one (especially devastating if it got nailed directly instead of getting to counterattack), Doctors can't save the Jailor forever anymore, so the Jailor can get hammered down by force.

5 - Compensation for 4.
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Re: Town Protective Tweaking

Postby syjfwbaobfwl » Fri Jun 11, 2021 12:54 pm

Bodyguard OP??? ARE YOU CRAZY?

It is inferior than doctor in EVERYTHING, its the weakest tp by far, unless u chain with a doctor which shouldnt be posible
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Re: Town Protective Tweaking

Postby SilverCruz » Fri Jun 11, 2021 4:20 pm

If I'm in the Mafia I'd prefer to waste a night because of a Doctor than lose the Mafioso to a Bodyguard because losing the Mafioso means that all it takes is the Godfather getting jailed for the Town to instantly win even if the other two Random Mafia are around thanks to "good" game design. The only thing that can break that deadlock is a Witch with a Vigilante, but even then that is not reliable because there's not always a Vigilante to be had.

Four Bodyguards is much, much worse than four Doctors for the Mafia.
I know what I'm doing, generally, but I have no grace at all when things start to spin out of control.

I'd like to address the latter part, but I wouldn't know the first thing about that.
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Re: Town Protective Tweaking

Postby syjfwbaobfwl » Sun Jun 13, 2021 11:15 am

Except that 4 bodyguards is actually a good thing for mafia, because after 2 bgs die, town will obviusly start sus of the other ones and will lynch them

That happens with all roles except of med, LO and (depending on RMs) trans and escort
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Re: Town Protective Tweaking

Postby SilverCruz » Sun Jun 13, 2021 3:11 pm

But if those Bodyguards are still clung to the Day 1 Jailor Claim, then it's still impossible to get rid of the Almighty Wesley Jailor and trying will just knock off another quarter of your team (provided none of them quit on Day 1, which is its own problem of the game not having a good answer to this), so it's just a matter of time until the deadlock begins if the Mafioso already dropped to the first one. Furthermore if there is a Lookout, then it'll be confirmed that they've been touching the Almighty Wesley Jailor this whole time, so at worst they're not the Godfather.

I hate Jailor.
I know what I'm doing, generally, but I have no grace at all when things start to spin out of control.

I'd like to address the latter part, but I wouldn't know the first thing about that.
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Re: Town Protective Tweaking

Postby syjfwbaobfwl » Sun Jun 13, 2021 5:47 pm

SilverCruz wrote:But if those Bodyguards are still clung to the Day 1 Jailor Claim, then it's still impossible to get rid of the Almighty Wesley Jailor and trying will just knock off another quarter of your team (provided none of them quit on Day 1, which is its own problem of the game not having a good answer to this), so it's just a matter of time until the deadlock begins if the Mafioso already dropped to the first one. Furthermore if there is a Lookout, then it'll be confirmed that they've been touching the Almighty Wesley Jailor this whole time, so at worst they're not the Godfather.

I hate Jailor.


Ok you hate jailor, there is no need to say that the "almighty wesley jailor" is not a role you like FOR THE 80000 TIME, really dude

Its ok if you dont like the role, your arguments are valid but just keep repeating things is annoying for everyone
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Re: Town Protective Tweaking

Postby SilverCruz » Sun Jun 13, 2021 7:44 pm

Point still stands that Bodyguard is overpowered.
I know what I'm doing, generally, but I have no grace at all when things start to spin out of control.

I'd like to address the latter part, but I wouldn't know the first thing about that.
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Re: Town Protective Tweaking

Postby Brilliand » Sun Jun 13, 2021 10:43 pm

Bodyguard should not be able to keep protecting after getting one successful protect and being saved by a Doctor. Either Bodyguard's "died guarding" should be Unstoppable, or the Bodyguard should lose his guarding ability as part of getting a successful protect (I prefer the latter).

Making Bodyguard unique strikes me as a poor solution. If it's overpowered (it probably is tbh), the decent options are to either make it less reliable, or less effective when it goes off.
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Re: Town Protective Tweaking

Postby SilverCruz » Sun Jun 13, 2021 11:45 pm

Four Bodyguards that can only protect once each is still enough Bodyguards to wipe out the Mafia.
I know what I'm doing, generally, but I have no grace at all when things start to spin out of control.

I'd like to address the latter part, but I wouldn't know the first thing about that.
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Re: Town Protective Tweaking

Postby Brilliand » Mon Jun 14, 2021 4:50 am

SilverCruz wrote:Four Bodyguards that can only protect once each is still enough Bodyguards to wipe out the Mafia.


Is that really any worse for the Mafia than four Doctors that can potentially render the Mafia unable to kill? At least with four Bodyguards, the Mafia can sacrifice members to break up the TP chain, then use the last Mafia member to attack the last Bodyguard directly.

(I see you've also proposed a nerf for the Doctor, but I'm hesitant to agree that all of the TPs are overpowered, because I can only judge them by comparing them with each other.)
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Re: Town Protective Tweaking

Postby SilverCruz » Mon Jun 14, 2021 2:41 pm

With Doctor it's more of it being an enabler. I don't like being a Doctor, I find it to be a boring role that doesn't feel like it's accomplishing anything most of the time. Bodyguard feels more impactful because if it activates you usually knock out a Mafia, whereas if Doctor activates it has just delayed them for a night, and that being helpful rather than just a waste of everyone's time is completely reliant on other roles to advance the Town's position whereas Bodyguard does it intrinsically.

And four Doctors, if the Mafia gambles on taking a shot at the Jailor after one is down, they waste a night. Wasting a night is way less destructive than losing a member, and throwing out the Mafioso on a Bodyguard is a massive gamble because at that point all it takes is one click from the Jailor to make the Town's victory inevitable.
I know what I'm doing, generally, but I have no grace at all when things start to spin out of control.

I'd like to address the latter part, but I wouldn't know the first thing about that.
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Re: Town Protective Tweaking

Postby Soulshade55r » Tue Jun 15, 2021 2:02 am

SilverCruz wrote:- Bodyguard is now Unique. Making less claim space for evils and making BG "unique" Doesn't solve anything other then having lots of Bgs in some games? I don't see the purpose to this.

- Bodyguard/Godfather/Arsonist Investigation bracket is dissolved, and the Investigation brackets are updated to move them around. (I'm not getting specific on this one, use your imagination) If you're going to make a balance change idea but have a part that's "use your imagination for invest results" it's kinda eh.

- Doctor can now heal the revealed Mayor again. I'm fine with this.

- A single Doctor can only successfully heal a single target once. The second attack will take them out anyway unless they are healed by a different Doctor or protected by some other means (choosing to heal someone who does not get attacked that night doesn't count). If two Doctors heal the same target on a night where that target is attacked, one will not execute their action and will not be informed that their target was attacked. The Doctor who heals is chosen randomly to prevent the other Doctor from being able to file down who it might be.
Why ;I?

- Doctor's self-heal can now be reused if it does not block an attack. So newbie doctors spam self heals until attacked? Nah this is pretty stupid, one use self heal is fine.

Message - "You target was attacked last night, and succumbed to their injuries despite your efforts." (Occurs when your target is attacked if you already healed them before))

But why?
1 - Bodyguard is already kind of an overpowered Role that's a Town Killing in all but name, serving as a Town Ambusher (yes, I know Bodyguard came first, shhh) that only attacks Killing roles, which in turn makes it much, much less volatile than Vigilante or Veteran. It's just unfair to the Mafia when there are two, or even worse three or four Bodyguards, and I feel there should only be one of them at max because of how much damage they can do compared to a Doctor. A one-for-one where the Town loses one and the Mafia loses one is always much, much worse for the Mafia, and a round where the Mafia can be theoretically wiped out by nothing but Bodyguards is completely asinine.
Ok but it's also pretty unfair when there's 3 vigilantes, 3 doctors, 3 Escorts ect. If Bodyguard is "OP" making it unique doesn't really solve much, Doctor generally has more potential then bodyguard because With bg you're losing 1 town for 1 evil with doctor you basically block the killers night action and you can do that more then once, a Actual good nerf would be so that doctors cannot save BG from dying to protects, Instead of making 1 of the 2 Tp's that are easy to fake claim unique.

2 - Godfather and Arsonist would get screwed being in a bracket that consists of two Evils and a Unique role, so it cannot stay as it is if Bodyguard is Unique.

3 - The healing block is not necessary with Point 4.

4 - Two things here. One is that a Doctor who knows who the Bodyguard or another Doctor is can be a massive problem for the Mafia, since two Doctors healing each other are invincible to the Mafia (or anything without an Unstoppable attack for that matter) without a Consort to stop one of them and a Doctor healing a Bodyguard who is protecting the Doctor can only be safely diffused by a Consort or an Ambusher visiting the Bodyguard when Consorts and Ambushers are not a given. Two is the Jailor Meta. Making Bodyguard unique and giving Doctor a strict cap on how many times it can heal one target would harshly damage the Jailor Meta because it would introduce some actual risk to it. A Mafia with a Disguiser can execute an attack on the Jailor without being caught by a Lookout, and now not only is Bodyguard unique so if it's gone there's not gonna be another one (especially devastating if it got nailed directly instead of getting to counterattack), Doctors can't save the Jailor forever anymore, so the Jailor can get hammered down by force.
Two doctors healing each other is a problem i can think of ways to fix that mainly making it so tp's cannot target the same player twice in a row so they can't just sit on a single target player all game. (Maybe including Lookout).

5 - Compensation for 4.



These changes don't really fix a lot doctors will still spam heal the jailor, bodyguard despite being unique will still be on the jailor until they die it doesn't solve the jailor meta, sure it weakens it.

Good change would be to Like I stated.
1. Make it so Bodyguards attack cannot be saved by doctors.
2. Tps in general cannot go on the same target twice in a row to prevent everyone sitting on one role, this would also prevent doctors from healing each other all game.
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Re: Town Protective Tweaking

Postby SilverCruz » Tue Jun 15, 2021 5:48 pm

Let's see...

1 - The purpose is having less Bodyguards. Simple as that.

2 - I don't want people to get distracted.

3 - Mayor comment.

4 - Because Jailors ruin everything.

5 - Can't ruin the game any more than a bad Jailor who executes a known Escort for no reason and completely ignores being told to keep the Godfather jailed so that the Mafia can't attack. Idiot-proofing isn't prolific in this game, so "players who are bad at doctor would misuse it" isn't a justification here.

6A - The difference between Vigilante and Bodyguard is that Bodyguard is nearly incapable of harming a member of the Town without interference. Ignoring Coven. the only case where this is possible is if a Vigilante declares an attack against a cross-aligned role and a Bodyguard chooses to protect the same target. But Bodyguards will typically not bother protecting anyone who hasn't made a hard claim, so if we assume nobody is acting stupid, the only case you will ever see a Bodyguard double KO with a Vigilante is if a Witch sent the Vigilante after the Bodyguard's target, nevermind that three-four Vigilantes is a huge liability to the Town as long as a static Witch exists anyway.

6B - I think you're underestimating the damage that losing the Mafioso does. Once the Mafioso is gone or promoted, all it takes is one roleblock from someone who's not an imbecile to guarantee the Town victory, and the only thing that can upset that is a Witch with a Vigilante. A Doctor's save progressing the Town's position, like I said, relies on other roles. If there are no TI left, then that night was a dud where at best nobody accomplished anything, and only allowing them one heal per target would allow the Mafia to force the Jailor off the board, double-so if they have a Disguiser.

6C - Honestly I don't even think Escort should exist. Its sole purpose is to give plausible deniability to the Consort, and it's really only good at deadlocking, which also shouldn't exist. As long as both the Godfather and Mafioso (roles that also shouldn't exist) are both around, an Escort is better at disrupting the Town than it is disrupting the Mafia due to it having no feedback.

7 - It's a thought. I guess that would also damage the Jailor Meta, so I will say it's definitely worth considering as an alternative to what I've proposed.

8 - Weakening the Jailor Meta is more important than solving it if a solution cannot be achieved all in one go. While I still am not inclined to say that Bodyguard shouldn't be Unique (because it's a Town Killing in all but name that is completely incapable of committing friendly fire without some sort of interference), I will say that simply blocking consecutive visits would probably be a better solution than only letting Doctors heal a given target once per round, since it'd at least take a level of coordination for this to be abused rather than just being a matter of brainlessly mashing on the guy who said they're the Jailor and didn't pick Socrates as their name.
I know what I'm doing, generally, but I have no grace at all when things start to spin out of control.

I'd like to address the latter part, but I wouldn't know the first thing about that.
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Re: Town Protective Tweaking

Postby Brilliand » Tue Jun 15, 2021 6:38 pm

It's generally better to kill the Doctor then the Jailor than it is to spend two nights killing the Jailor through protection, so I don't think the Doctor nerf helps much to weaken the Jailor meta. It's really more of an anti-TP-chain thing.
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Re: Town Protective Tweaking

Postby SilverCruz » Tue Jun 15, 2021 7:07 pm

Well if you don't know who the Doctor is but you have a Disguiser so that you can commit attacks without having to worry about a Lookout...

But still, other fellow said to just not let Protectives pick the same target twice in a row, and that seems reliable enough to me.
I know what I'm doing, generally, but I have no grace at all when things start to spin out of control.

I'd like to address the latter part, but I wouldn't know the first thing about that.
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Re: Town Protective Tweaking

Postby Brilliand » Wed Jun 16, 2021 6:16 am

SilverCruz wrote:But still, other fellow said to just not let Protectives pick the same target twice in a row, and that seems reliable enough to me.


Yes, that would mess with all the degenerate TP metas quite well.
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Re: Town Protective Tweaking

Postby Soulshade55r » Wed Jun 16, 2021 6:30 am

SilverCruz wrote:Let's see...

1 - The purpose is having less Bodyguards. Simple as that. Not good for balance or claim space to make more roles unique.

2 - I don't want people to get distracted.

3 - Mayor comment.

4 - Because Jailors ruin everything.

5 - Can't ruin the game any more than a bad Jailor who executes a known Escort for no reason and completely ignores being told to keep the Godfather jailed so that the Mafia can't attack. Idiot-proofing isn't prolific in this game, so "players who are bad at doctor would misuse it" isn't a justification here.

6A - The difference between Vigilante and Bodyguard is that Bodyguard is nearly incapable of harming a member of the Town without interference. Ignoring Coven. the only case where this is possible is if a Vigilante declares an attack against a cross-aligned role and a Bodyguard chooses to protect the same target. But Bodyguards will typically not bother protecting anyone who hasn't made a hard claim, so if we assume nobody is acting stupid, the only case you will ever see a Bodyguard double KO with a Vigilante is if a Witch sent the Vigilante after the Bodyguard's target, nevermind that three-four Vigilantes is a huge liability to the Town as long as a static Witch exists anyway. Difference is one has way more room to fuck up but way more room to carry, BG can only use there ability successfully once to save someone and they trade themselves unless a doctor heals them which is where i made my suggestion to nerf that aka remove that interaction

6B - I think you're underestimating the damage that losing the Mafioso does. Once the Mafioso is gone or promoted, all it takes is one roleblock from someone who's not an imbecile to guarantee the Town victory, and the only thing that can upset that is a Witch with a Vigilante. A Doctor's save progressing the Town's position, like I said, relies on other roles. If there are no TI left, then that night was a dud where at best nobody accomplished anything, and only allowing them one heal per target would allow the Mafia to force the Jailor off the board, double-so if they have a Disguiser. This is actually more of a problem with mafia then bodyguard... mafioso can walk into a vet n1, or the unique bg n1, or be found n1, none of these changes rearlly do much to prevent the swing of losing a mafioso or GF.

6C - Honestly I don't even think Escort should exist. Its sole purpose is to give plausible deniability to the Consort, and it's really only good at deadlocking, which also shouldn't exist. As long as both the Godfather and Mafioso (roles that also shouldn't exist) are both around, an Escort is better at disrupting the Town than it is disrupting the Mafia due to it having no feedback.

7 - It's a thought. I guess that would also damage the Jailor Meta, so I will say it's definitely worth considering as an alternative to what I've proposed.

8 - Weakening the Jailor Meta is more important than solving it if a solution cannot be achieved all in one go. While I still am not inclined to say that Bodyguard shouldn't be Unique (because it's a Town Killing in all but name that is completely incapable of committing friendly fire without some sort of interference), I will say that simply blocking consecutive visits would probably be a better solution than only letting Doctors heal a given target once per round, since it'd at least take a level of coordination for this to be abused rather than just being a matter of brainlessly mashing on the guy who said they're the Jailor and didn't pick Socrates as their name.
You can weaken the jailor meta without punishing doctor for saving players more then once and you can weaken it without making bg unique.

Your suggestion honestly makes it more swingy in the fact that you're making doctor weaker while keeping bg whos generally stronger then doctor the same just making them unique.



Making a role unique doesn't automatically fix anything nerfing the other role that spawns in that category whos already weaker also doesn't fix anyhing.
I seriously don't see how your changes make sense in a balanced perspective.


Making it so Tp's cannot protect the same target twice in a row (possibly including LO)
Is a actual way to nerf the jailor meta because not everyone Will pile on the jailor or it leaves him venerable, It also encourages Tp's to be smart about who they protect, making tp's more engaging to play

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Spoiler: Town: Jailor
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Re: Town Protective Tweaking

Postby SilverCruz » Wed Jun 16, 2021 6:55 am

Are you not capable of reading the part where I very clearly deferred from my original Doctor adjustment to what you said?
I know what I'm doing, generally, but I have no grace at all when things start to spin out of control.

I'd like to address the latter part, but I wouldn't know the first thing about that.
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Re: Town Protective Tweaking

Postby Soulshade55r » Wed Jun 16, 2021 7:12 am

SilverCruz wrote:Are you not capable of reading the part where I very clearly deferred from my original Doctor adjustment to what you said?

Your original doctor adjustment punishes players for correctly healing a target, might as well just disable the ability to target the same player after successful heal, while I think it's way better for doctors to just not be able to target the same player twice in a row.

I will say that simply blocking consecutive visits would probably be a better solution than only letting Doctors heal a given target once per round, since it'd at least take a level of coordination for this to be abused rather than just being a matter of brainlessly mashing on the guy who said they're the Jailor and didn't pick Socrates as their name.

Which is better imo then the current doctor you have, also a better solution then making BG unique

Also i have dyslexia so I do tend to miss somethings from time to time, please don't talk down to me thanks.
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