Vampire Rework

Suggest new roles or changes to current roles for the game here.

Should this rework be made into its own role?

Yes
0
No votes
No
3
60%
Other (please explain)
1
20%
The concept should be scrapped (please explain)
1
20%
 
Total votes : 5

Vampire Rework

Postby alex1234321 » Wed Apr 21, 2021 8:45 am

Vampire is a bad role. It is that rare combination of a role that is both unbalanced and boring. You can play the whole game as a Town member, killing and lynching evil roles, before suddenly turning into one of those evil roles. In the extreme, the role actively encourages gamethrowing. This role is supposed to remove the conversion mechanic while staying as similar to Vampire as possible. The other issue that I want to resolve, which is much more minor but harder to fix, is the night number dependency problem. The outcome of a game often hinges upon whether or not the Vampires can convert on a certain night.

Role Name:
Vampire

Role Alignment:
Neutral Chaos

Abilities:
Feed on one player at night, draining them of blood. (4 uses, roles with basic defense are immune)
Kill one player for every living player who is drained. (1 use, unstoppable attack)

Attributes:
Your targets are informed that you bit them.
Drained players are roleblocked the night you feed on them.
If you do nothing, you roleblock all drained players.
You may not feed on another player if there are 3 living players drained of blood.

Goal:
Feed on all living players.

Win Conditions:
Same as current Vampire.

Additional Information:
Basic defense, unique role.
Biting someone with defense causes your ability to fail, but you do not consume a charge.
If all living players are drained of blood, the Vampire wins if they are alive. All other factions lose, even if they accomplished their goal.
Last edited by alex1234321 on Thu Apr 22, 2021 6:42 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Vampire Rework

Postby dolphina » Wed Apr 21, 2021 2:26 pm

can i just say how much i love you
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Re: Vampire Rework

Postby SilverCruz » Wed Apr 21, 2021 3:16 pm

I'm not a fan of having a win condition that can silently negate the win condition of other roles. It's not really better than changing the win condition of other roles. Of course the only modification I can present to make that not happen is to make it so that if it gets voted up, all drained players are forced to vote Innocent. It's true this would sell it out, but I suppose ideally one would stay undercover to the point that the Innocent votes will prevent it from being lynched off, nevermind that Neutral Chaos shouldn't exist, it's just a pen for Vampires who are fundamentally broken, Pirate who's a lazy Neutral Killing, and Plaguebearer who's only there instead of Neutral Killing because God forbid a Ranked match have a role that can't be executed by the Almighty Wesley Jailor in the form of Pestilence.

Triple roleblock also sounds ridiculous, and this would basically require Vampire Hunter being thrown in the trash can, though whether or not that's a real downside is debatable.
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Re: Vampire Rework

Postby dolphina » Wed Apr 21, 2021 4:15 pm

vampire hunter can suck my metaphorical dick
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Re: Vampire Rework

Postby alex1234321 » Wed Apr 21, 2021 4:41 pm

SilverCruz wrote:I'm not a fan of having a win condition that can silently negate the win condition of other roles. It's not really better than changing the win condition of other roles. Of course the only modification I can present to make that not happen is to make it so that if it gets voted up, all drained players are forced to vote Innocent. It's true this would sell it out, but I suppose ideally one would stay undercover to the point that the Innocent votes will prevent it from being lynched off, nevermind that Neutral Chaos shouldn't exist, it's just a pen for Vampires who are fundamentally broken, Pirate who's a lazy Neutral Killing, and Plaguebearer who's only there instead of Neutral Killing because God forbid a Ranked match have a role that can't be executed by the Almighty Wesley Jailor in the form of Pestilence.

Triple roleblock also sounds ridiculous, and this would basically require Vampire Hunter being thrown in the trash can, though whether or not that's a real downside is debatable.


If you want it to kill the drained players at the same time, it would accomplish the same thing. At that point it's just a wording change. The one issue with this is that it's effectively 1.5 KPN if nobody who is drained dies, but it's also somewhat limited since it can't kill more than 6 people. Limiting the number of drains can serve as a nerf, but idk if that would be too much.

I don't think Neutral Chaos as defined in Ezra's subalignment rework option B is necessarily a bad alignment. Vampire right now is horrible and Pirate should be NB (or NO under Ezra's changes) rather than NC. PB/Pest can be tweaked but is actually not a bad role, even for Ranked. It's far more balanced for Ranked than Jailor will ever be unless Jailor was nerfed to a level that would cause half of what's left of the playerbase to leave.

The triple roleblock wouldn't be done unless the Vampire is waiting for the game to get down to seven players. At that point the Vampire is likely to win the game unless one of the drained people dies, and I wouldn't even be surprised if the Mafia kills drained players (assuming there's a notification, I haven't specified it but there should be one imo) to prevent the Vampire from doing anything.

VH should go. I don't care about VH.
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Re: Vampire Rework

Postby MarsGodofWar » Wed Apr 21, 2021 8:06 pm

Nah having 1 conversion role in a game like this is fine. Having to wait a night between conversions is fine as well. You spend your whole game as a town and then get converted? So what? Suck it up, part of the game.
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Re: Vampire Rework

Postby alex1234321 » Wed Apr 21, 2021 8:40 pm

MarsGodofWar wrote:Nah having 1 conversion role in a game like this is fine. Having to wait a night between conversions is fine as well. You spend your whole game as a town and then get converted? So what? Suck it up, part of the game.

Townies in Vamp games are always going to be tempted to play passively in case they become a Vampire. Vampires encourage players to play badly or even gamethrow because they punish players who try to help their faction before being converted.
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Re: Vampire Rework

Postby dolphina » Wed Apr 21, 2021 9:45 pm

alex1234321 wrote:
MarsGodofWar wrote:Nah having 1 conversion role in a game like this is fine. Having to wait a night between conversions is fine as well. You spend your whole game as a town and then get converted? So what? Suck it up, part of the game.

Townies in Vamp games are always going to be tempted to play passively in case they become a Vampire. Vampires encourage players to play badly or even gamethrow because they punish players who try to help their faction before being converted.

This tbh. I never play dracula's palace and I always groan whenever vampire pops up. It's just annoying at this point
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Re: Vampire Rework

Postby superdog551 » Thu Apr 22, 2021 9:43 am

So the best strategy for this vampire needs to have 3 people bitten, get to top 7, and then kill the other 3 players right? That doesn't seem too hard at all in theory. Does TP kill the vampire? If not it would be easy to go for the jailor and other confirmed townies since you could reliably keep them alive before dealing your attack
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Re: Vampire Rework

Postby alex1234321 » Thu Apr 22, 2021 9:50 am

superdog551 wrote:So the best strategy for this vampire needs to have 3 people bitten, get to top 7, and then kill the other 3 players right? That doesn't seem too hard at all in theory. Does TP kill the vampire? If not it would be easy to go for the jailor and other confirmed townies since you could reliably keep them alive before dealing your attack


It's treated like a basic attack. So a Doctor prevents the Vampire form biting its target and a Bodyguard and Vampire kill each other.

I agree that it's OP right now. What do you think about only letting it bite 3 people in total? That would still give it a ceiling of 1.5 KPN but as soon as one of the drained players dies the KPN goes down to 1.
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Re: Vampire Rework

Postby superdog551 » Thu Apr 22, 2021 10:36 am

alex1234321 wrote:
superdog551 wrote:So the best strategy for this vampire needs to have 3 people bitten, get to top 7, and then kill the other 3 players right? That doesn't seem too hard at all in theory. Does TP kill the vampire? If not it would be easy to go for the jailor and other confirmed townies since you could reliably keep them alive before dealing your attack


It's treated like a basic attack. So a Doctor prevents the Vampire form biting its target and a Bodyguard and Vampire kill each other.

I agree that it's OP right now. What do you think about only letting it bite 3 people in total? That would still give it a ceiling of 1.5 KPN but as soon as one of the drained players dies the KPN goes down to 1.


That might cripple it because if all of the vampires bites end up dying then can it only win if it is the last person alive? Probably an impossible task since it cant kill without living drained
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Re: Vampire Rework

Postby alex1234321 » Thu Apr 22, 2021 11:17 am

superdog551 wrote:
alex1234321 wrote:
superdog551 wrote:So the best strategy for this vampire needs to have 3 people bitten, get to top 7, and then kill the other 3 players right? That doesn't seem too hard at all in theory. Does TP kill the vampire? If not it would be easy to go for the jailor and other confirmed townies since you could reliably keep them alive before dealing your attack


It's treated like a basic attack. So a Doctor prevents the Vampire form biting its target and a Bodyguard and Vampire kill each other.

I agree that it's OP right now. What do you think about only letting it bite 3 people in total? That would still give it a ceiling of 1.5 KPN but as soon as one of the drained players dies the KPN goes down to 1.


That might cripple it because if all of the vampires bites end up dying then can it only win if it is the last person alive? Probably an impossible task since it cant kill without living drained

How common would it be for this to happen? Of course there are sometimes Arsonists who have everyone they douse die, but usually at lease one player lives. Keeping all three alive would not be super common so the player should be rewarded accordingly, and keeping two alive seems sort of average and would give 1 KPN as a result. The only issue is that the Mafia might go out of their way to kill drained players if they get a special notification and TP wouldn't save them.

I like the idea of having a drain notification since it would cause the Vampire to be more relevant early on than a typical NC. Do you think the drain notification would reduce the average KPN close to or even below 1 with unlimited uses?
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Re: Vampire Rework

Postby superdog551 » Thu Apr 22, 2021 12:53 pm

alex1234321 wrote:
superdog551 wrote:
alex1234321 wrote:
superdog551 wrote:So the best strategy for this vampire needs to have 3 people bitten, get to top 7, and then kill the other 3 players right? That doesn't seem too hard at all in theory. Does TP kill the vampire? If not it would be easy to go for the jailor and other confirmed townies since you could reliably keep them alive before dealing your attack


It's treated like a basic attack. So a Doctor prevents the Vampire form biting its target and a Bodyguard and Vampire kill each other.

I agree that it's OP right now. What do you think about only letting it bite 3 people in total? That would still give it a ceiling of 1.5 KPN but as soon as one of the drained players dies the KPN goes down to 1.


That might cripple it because if all of the vampires bites end up dying then can it only win if it is the last person alive? Probably an impossible task since it cant kill without living drained

How common would it be for this to happen? Of course there are sometimes Arsonists who have everyone they douse die, but usually at lease one player lives. Keeping all three alive would not be super common so the player should be rewarded accordingly, and keeping two alive seems sort of average and would give 1 KPN as a result. The only issue is that the Mafia might go out of their way to kill drained players if they get a special notification and TP wouldn't save them.

I like the idea of having a drain notification since it would cause the Vampire to be more relevant early on than a typical NC. Do you think the drain notification would reduce the average KPN close to or even below 1 with unlimited uses?


You may be right but it would still be a bigger issue for the vampire since arsonist can still douse more people after it's original douses have died while the vampire is at a huge disadvantage if even one of their bites dies. With three living bites a vampire can win at 7 players remaining, with two they can win at 5, with one they can win at 3, and with none they have to somehow kill everybody even though they aren't able to make any kills. There is a huge difference between those numbers.

If people get a notification that they have been drained town will most likely begin hunting the vampire immediately. Like you said, the mafia may target the person who was drained since a vampire can kill the Godfather. And who knows? Town may even start lynching people who have been drained to prevent the vampire from using it's full powered kill, and since vamp can bite mafia/neutral it may not even be a mislynch. Two birds with one stone. That being said, with no message at all then it would be so much easier for the vampire to be victorious in the 7 player scenario since nobody knows before it is too late. I'm not really sure of a work around here. Can you explain what you mean with the last part about unlimited uses?

Don't get me wrong, I think you're onto something here and the vampire definitely needs to be reworked, I just think in theory right now it's way too dependent on multiple factors
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Re: Vampire Rework

Postby alex1234321 » Thu Apr 22, 2021 1:02 pm

superdog551 wrote:Can you explain what you mean with the last part about unlimited uses?


I meant the current version of the Vampire, where it can keep draining people but can't have more than 3 drained at once. With Mafia killing drained people and possibly Town lynching them, do you think the average KPN would fall below 1? For that to happen at least 2 drained players would have to die before the Vampire kills them.
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Re: Vampire Rework

Postby superdog551 » Thu Apr 22, 2021 1:12 pm

alex1234321 wrote:
superdog551 wrote:Can you explain what you mean with the last part about unlimited uses?


I meant the current version of the Vampire, where it can keep draining people but can't have more than 3 drained at once. With Mafia killing drained people and possibly Town lynching them, do you think the average KPN would fall below 1? For that to happen at least 2 drained players would have to die before the Vampire kills them.


Ah I see now, I think it's possible but unlikely. If the vampire has 2 people drained and either bites someone protected, gets roleblocked, jailed, etc. and the two end up dying (either by being killed at night or lynched the next day) it could lose it's KPN. It is, of course, possible but I doubt it would be a common thing. With unlimited bites the vampire will pretty much always be able to maintain 2 or 3 drained people, because I really doubt all 3 could die in the same night outside of super situational circumstances.

Maybe something that could work is giving the vampire 4 bites total while still keeping the max of 3 drained at one time. That way if the vampire loses a drained they have one back up that they can use ,and also if it does end up being a 1v1 they can use their last bite to win. I think that would be noticeably more powerful than a maximum of 3 bites while also not being as theoretically OP as the current unlimited bite option.
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Re: Vampire Rework

Postby alex1234321 » Thu Apr 22, 2021 2:21 pm

superdog551 wrote:
alex1234321 wrote:
superdog551 wrote:Can you explain what you mean with the last part about unlimited uses?


I meant the current version of the Vampire, where it can keep draining people but can't have more than 3 drained at once. With Mafia killing drained people and possibly Town lynching them, do you think the average KPN would fall below 1? For that to happen at least 2 drained players would have to die before the Vampire kills them.


Ah I see now, I think it's possible but unlikely. If the vampire has 2 people drained and either bites someone protected, gets roleblocked, jailed, etc. and the two end up dying (either by being killed at night or lynched the next day) it could lose it's KPN. It is, of course, possible but I doubt it would be a common thing. With unlimited bites the vampire will pretty much always be able to maintain 2 or 3 drained people, because I really doubt all 3 could die in the same night outside of super situational circumstances.

Maybe something that could work is giving the vampire 4 bites total while still keeping the max of 3 drained at one time. That way if the vampire loses a drained they have one back up that they can use ,and also if it does end up being a 1v1 they can use their last bite to win. I think that would be noticeably more powerful than a maximum of 3 bites while also not being as theoretically OP as the current unlimited bite option.


I thought about that, but at that point you're picking arbitrary numbers that "seem" fair. I think the limit of 3 drained people is fair because both the Mafia and Vampire caps have been set at 4 based on years of testing and there's no clear reason why this pseudo-faction would need to be different. My original idea of limiting it to 3 bites makes sense since it's a natural progression form 3 simultaneous drains, so idk how to justify limiting it to 4 bites. But it could work.
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Re: Vampire Rework

Postby superdog551 » Thu Apr 22, 2021 3:10 pm

alex1234321 wrote:I thought about that, but at that point you're picking arbitrary numbers that "seem" fair. I think the limit of 3 drained people is fair because both the Mafia and Vampire caps have been set at 4 based on years of testing and there's no clear reason why this pseudo-faction would need to be different. My original idea of limiting it to 3 bites makes sense since it's a natural progression form 3 simultaneous drains, so idk how to justify limiting it to 4 bites. But it could work.


It's not an arbitrary number. The vampire has no room for error or accidents with 3 bites maximum. It NEEDS to have people bitten otherwise it's near impossible to win. How would a vampire win a 1v1 with a non-killing town when it is out of bites? It can't, the game would draw or just automatically become a town win. The reverse is that with infinite bites it becomes very powerful because any of its bites can die without much real issue.

And just to be clear I'm not saying let them have 4 drained people at a time, that would be insane because they could then win a game with 10 living players. There would still be a maximum of three living drained people but the vampire would get one extra bite to replace one that has died or to potentially win a 1v1 scenario.
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Re: Vampire Rework

Postby alex1234321 » Thu Apr 22, 2021 3:47 pm

superdog551 wrote:
alex1234321 wrote:I thought about that, but at that point you're picking arbitrary numbers that "seem" fair. I think the limit of 3 drained people is fair because both the Mafia and Vampire caps have been set at 4 based on years of testing and there's no clear reason why this pseudo-faction would need to be different. My original idea of limiting it to 3 bites makes sense since it's a natural progression form 3 simultaneous drains, so idk how to justify limiting it to 4 bites. But it could work.


It's not an arbitrary number. The vampire has no room for error or accidents with 3 bites maximum. It NEEDS to have people bitten otherwise it's near impossible to win. How would a vampire win a 1v1 with a non-killing town when it is out of bites? It can't, the game would draw or just automatically become a town win. The reverse is that with infinite bites it becomes very powerful because any of its bites can die without much real issue.

And just to be clear I'm not saying let them have 4 drained people at a time, that would be insane because they could then win a game with 10 living players. There would still be a maximum of three living drained people but the vampire would get one extra bite to replace one that has died or to potentially win a 1v1 scenario.

It could still have the problem of not being able to do anything if it wastes the last drain. It would be much less common but would still occur occasionally.

Coincidentally, if you do the math for the expected number of dead drained players assuming 2 kills per day/night cycle, it ends up being about 0.89, which isn't too far from 1. Even in Ranked there's going to be more kills than that factoring in Jailor executes and other things. So 4 drains does seem fair. But at this point I'm using logic to support a conclusion rather than doing it the other way around.
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Re: Vampire Rework

Postby superdog551 » Thu Apr 22, 2021 4:40 pm

alex1234321 wrote:
superdog551 wrote:
alex1234321 wrote:I thought about that, but at that point you're picking arbitrary numbers that "seem" fair. I think the limit of 3 drained people is fair because both the Mafia and Vampire caps have been set at 4 based on years of testing and there's no clear reason why this pseudo-faction would need to be different. My original idea of limiting it to 3 bites makes sense since it's a natural progression form 3 simultaneous drains, so idk how to justify limiting it to 4 bites. But it could work.


It's not an arbitrary number. The vampire has no room for error or accidents with 3 bites maximum. It NEEDS to have people bitten otherwise it's near impossible to win. How would a vampire win a 1v1 with a non-killing town when it is out of bites? It can't, the game would draw or just automatically become a town win. The reverse is that with infinite bites it becomes very powerful because any of its bites can die without much real issue.

And just to be clear I'm not saying let them have 4 drained people at a time, that would be insane because they could then win a game with 10 living players. There would still be a maximum of three living drained people but the vampire would get one extra bite to replace one that has died or to potentially win a 1v1 scenario.

It could still have the problem of not being able to do anything if it wastes the last drain. It would be much less common but would still occur occasionally.

Coincidentally, if you do the math for the expected number of dead drained players assuming 2 kills per day/night cycle, it ends up being about 0.89, which isn't too far from 1. Even in Ranked there's going to be more kills than that factoring in Jailor executes and other things. So 4 drains does seem fair. But at this point I'm using logic to support a conclusion rather than doing it the other way around.


I see your point, 4 still isn't enough to prevent a loss where other killing neutrals and the original vampire would likely win. However, I still feel like three maximum is rather weak while unlimited is super strong. If having 4 bites isn't the answer I think something else needs to be added to balance it out.

The problem is everything I try to come up with has downsides. Keeping the drained message puts a target on the vampire's back and risks the town/mafia killing the drained people. Even if it has 3, 4, or infinite bites this is still a problem. Removing the message, however, makes it a buffed arso that, if two people die per day/night or more depending on killing roles, can win by day 4 without any warning. If you tried to remove the killing ability and instead make it have to bite every living person then it's just a hex master, or if drained targets become "vampires" and passively bite visits/visitors it's just a buffed PB(because it wins as soon as everyone is drained). If you remove biting in favor of killing then it just becomes an SK unless you add something else unique, but then it just becomes a buffed SK. Giving it a maximum of two drained people seems like it could work but then it can only really win either when there is 5 people left or the vampire can somehow convince the drained people to help lynch an extra player or two even when the fact that there is a vamp is now known.

I don't know where the middle ground is anywhere with these things. Maybe I am overthinking it but I really feel like it's either OP or UP when trying to balance it's unique abilities yet removing them just makes it a copy of a different role. I love the idea, it would be very fun to successfully get three people drained and then kill that night and win, I just can't think of any way to balance it without removing what makes it unique compared to other neutrals. Am I missing something?
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Re: Vampire Rework

Postby alex1234321 » Thu Apr 22, 2021 5:47 pm

superdog551 wrote:
alex1234321 wrote:
superdog551 wrote:
alex1234321 wrote:I thought about that, but at that point you're picking arbitrary numbers that "seem" fair. I think the limit of 3 drained people is fair because both the Mafia and Vampire caps have been set at 4 based on years of testing and there's no clear reason why this pseudo-faction would need to be different. My original idea of limiting it to 3 bites makes sense since it's a natural progression form 3 simultaneous drains, so idk how to justify limiting it to 4 bites. But it could work.


It's not an arbitrary number. The vampire has no room for error or accidents with 3 bites maximum. It NEEDS to have people bitten otherwise it's near impossible to win. How would a vampire win a 1v1 with a non-killing town when it is out of bites? It can't, the game would draw or just automatically become a town win. The reverse is that with infinite bites it becomes very powerful because any of its bites can die without much real issue.

And just to be clear I'm not saying let them have 4 drained people at a time, that would be insane because they could then win a game with 10 living players. There would still be a maximum of three living drained people but the vampire would get one extra bite to replace one that has died or to potentially win a 1v1 scenario.

It could still have the problem of not being able to do anything if it wastes the last drain. It would be much less common but would still occur occasionally.

Coincidentally, if you do the math for the expected number of dead drained players assuming 2 kills per day/night cycle, it ends up being about 0.89, which isn't too far from 1. Even in Ranked there's going to be more kills than that factoring in Jailor executes and other things. So 4 drains does seem fair. But at this point I'm using logic to support a conclusion rather than doing it the other way around.


I see your point, 4 still isn't enough to prevent a loss where other killing neutrals and the original vampire would likely win. However, I still feel like three maximum is rather weak while unlimited is super strong. If having 4 bites isn't the answer I think something else needs to be added to balance it out.

The problem is everything I try to come up with has downsides. Keeping the drained message puts a target on the vampire's back and risks the town/mafia killing the drained people. Even if it has 3, 4, or infinite bites this is still a problem. Removing the message, however, makes it a buffed arso that, if two people die per day/night or more depending on killing roles, can win by day 4 without any warning. If you tried to remove the killing ability and instead make it have to bite every living person then it's just a hex master, or if drained targets become "vampires" and passively bite visits/visitors it's just a buffed PB(because it wins as soon as everyone is drained). If you remove biting in favor of killing then it just becomes an SK unless you add something else unique, but then it just becomes a buffed SK. Giving it a maximum of two drained people seems like it could work but then it can only really win either when there is 5 people left or the vampire can somehow convince the drained people to help lynch an extra player or two even when the fact that there is a vamp is now known.

I don't know where the middle ground is anywhere with these things. Maybe I am overthinking it but I really feel like it's either OP or UP when trying to balance it's unique abilities yet removing them just makes it a copy of a different role. I love the idea, it would be very fun to successfully get three people drained and then kill that night and win, I just can't think of any way to balance it without removing what makes it unique compared to other neutrals. Am I missing something?


The first question is whether or not there should be a notification. With a notification, 4 or even unlimited uses could be UP, but that would be crazy. With no notification, having 3 uses could be fair and 4 would probably be OP. Personally, I prefer to have the notification since it would make the role more relevant to the game and the Vampire would need more bites, which would reduce the penalty for a failed bite.

There are other ways to balance the role. If it's UP, the bites could be made powerful or even unstoppable. If it's OP, maybe the triple roleblock could be removed but I like that mechanic. The regular kill strength could be weakened as well, but Doctor might counter that too strongly. So it's definitely possible to fine-tune the balance of the role.

The more that I think about it, the more 4 bites seems okay. The average player should be able to get three bites if they aren't lynched in the process. Good players can get it faster and bad players don't get as many successful bites. The average KPN would be around 1.2 which is a lot but it would be less if players actively play against the Vampire. And it'd be hard to argue that four uses with the notification would still be OP.
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Re: Vampire Rework

Postby superdog551 » Thu Apr 22, 2021 6:12 pm

alex1234321 wrote:The first question is whether or not there should be a notification. With a notification, 4 or even unlimited uses could be UP, but that would be crazy. With no notification, having 3 uses could be fair and 4 would probably be OP. Personally, I prefer to have the notification since it would make the role more relevant to the game and the Vampire would need more bites, which would reduce the penalty for a failed bite.

There are other ways to balance the role. If it's UP, the bites could be made powerful or even unstoppable. If it's OP, maybe the triple roleblock could be removed but I like that mechanic. The regular kill strength could be weakened as well, but Doctor might counter that too strongly. So it's definitely possible to fine-tune the balance of the role.

The more that I think about it, the more 4 bites seems okay. The average player should be able to get three bites if they aren't lynched in the process. Good players can get it faster and bad players don't get as many successful bites. The average KPN would be around 1.2 which is a lot but it would be less if players actively play against the Vampire. And it'd be hard to argue that four uses with the notification would still be OP.


I think 4 bites with a max of 3 drained alive plus the notification is probably the most balanced it can get while still remaining fun. Unless biting someone who is protected wastes that bite I don't think they need to be buffed. Really if they were buffed it would make the role OP again because then the vamp could bite the jailor and other confirmed townies which town wont kill and mafia will have trouble killing most of the game. So yeah, bites are fine as is. I also like the role block ability and I don't think that needs to be changed.
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Re: Vampire Rework

Postby alex1234321 » Thu Apr 22, 2021 6:41 pm

superdog551 wrote:
alex1234321 wrote:The first question is whether or not there should be a notification. With a notification, 4 or even unlimited uses could be UP, but that would be crazy. With no notification, having 3 uses could be fair and 4 would probably be OP. Personally, I prefer to have the notification since it would make the role more relevant to the game and the Vampire would need more bites, which would reduce the penalty for a failed bite.

There are other ways to balance the role. If it's UP, the bites could be made powerful or even unstoppable. If it's OP, maybe the triple roleblock could be removed but I like that mechanic. The regular kill strength could be weakened as well, but Doctor might counter that too strongly. So it's definitely possible to fine-tune the balance of the role.

The more that I think about it, the more 4 bites seems okay. The average player should be able to get three bites if they aren't lynched in the process. Good players can get it faster and bad players don't get as many successful bites. The average KPN would be around 1.2 which is a lot but it would be less if players actively play against the Vampire. And it'd be hard to argue that four uses with the notification would still be OP.


I think 4 bites with a max of 3 drained alive plus the notification is probably the most balanced it can get while still remaining fun. Unless biting someone who is protected wastes that bite I don't think they need to be buffed. Really if they were buffed it would make the role OP again because then the vamp could bite the jailor and other confirmed townies which town wont kill and mafia will have trouble killing most of the game. So yeah, bites are fine as is. I also like the role block ability and I don't think that needs to be changed.


Cool. I made those edits. Also I made a poll to see whether people would prefer it as a standalone role.
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Re: Vampire Rework

Postby superdog551 » Thu Apr 22, 2021 6:45 pm

Yeah I can go both ways on whether or not it should be it's own role but if the main goal is to rework vampires then I vote it would replace them
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Re: Vampire Rework

Postby Cavespider17 » Thu Apr 29, 2021 7:30 pm

I have a few questions on this:
1) What's the time gap between feedings?
2) With the 4 uses, from what I understand is you can have 4 players drained at any time - is there a time cap on when these players die from drain-exhaustion?
3) Is the kill action a single night action? Or is it a multi-night action?
4) Does killing a player also kill one of the drained players?

Just a few things to think on
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Re: Vampire Rework

Postby alex1234321 » Thu Apr 29, 2021 7:42 pm

Cavespider17 wrote:I have a few questions on this:
1) What's the time gap between feedings?
2) With the 4 uses, from what I understand is you can have 4 players drained at any time - is there a time cap on when these players die from drain-exhaustion?
3) Is the kill action a single night action? Or is it a multi-night action?
4) Does killing a player also kill one of the drained players?

Just a few things to think on


1. No gap, you may feed every night. To make it more similar to Vamp I was thinking of doing it every other night but I don't like night dependence and that would be UP since it doesn't have a faction.
2. You can only have three players drained at once. The fourth use is in case one of them dies. So if you bite people nights 1 through 3 and one of them dies, you can replace that person with a bite n4.
3. Yeah, it's a single night action. Everyone dies at once.
4. The drained players don't die, but the game ends if all living players are drained of blood. The only difference between this and having them all die is that this prevents kingmaker situations. Also you have to wait until there are 7 players left (3 drained, 3 others, and you) instead of 8,
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