The New Spy Change

The New Spy Change

Postby DumbStorm » Mon Aug 21, 2017 3:18 pm

It sucks.

You decided to keep Spie's extremely overpowered ability to see Mafia visits.

Here's why this sucks.

-Framed targets can be confirmed non-mafia.
-Can confirm Disguiser's targets, like if they disguise as SK and die, the Spy can call out who was potentially the SK.
-Forger wills are easily thrown aside.
-Consort can't fake a will at all, and Consigliere can struggle to write on up.
-Hypnotism can be disproven easily.
-Spy, by process of Elimination, simply by existing and Mafia working towards their goal, find out every mafia member, or narrow it down to a small group, except if there is a Transporter.

This Bug ability doesn't even help.

-Spy can call out people who fake a heal on them by calling out their defence value.

But here's the problem - Spy in this form has one super broken ability and a very weak lookout ability.

No matter what you do, none of these two abilities can stay. One breaks Spy, one makes Spy almost useless.
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Re: The New Spy Change

Postby HereThereEverywhere » Mon Aug 21, 2017 3:34 pm

What I want to know is if the bug ability sees stuff like Mafioso's night message for killing the Godfather's target, whether or not your target's defense value was too high, things that almost immediately confirm scum. I'll test it on PTR before I say anything, but I'm not sure how I like it.
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Re: The New Spy Change

Postby DumbStorm » Mon Aug 21, 2017 6:46 pm

4DEATH wrote:If a consort or consigliere is claiming escort/investigator with a legit will with correct visit order, they should be called out anyway. You cant call spy overpowered just because some players are dumb enough to do that.

Spy is also really easy to fake and hard to confirm. "Proccess of elimination" only works if you stay alive long enough to have a long will. Same as physic. If they see this as a problem, they can make RM roles be able to visit mafia with same or new abilities (if abilities are staying same consort shouldnt be able to "roleblock" mafia to prevent griefing, visit can stay) would fix this problem?

To "fix" other points, all you have to do is bring back spy message. But i doubt thats needed as spy is already hard to prove.

I like "powerful ability with really big downside" approach really well when it comes to game balance, and spy is exactly that.

Also BMG please make spy visit order randomized. Its really easy to call out who is immune with this current "Killing visit is always last" approach. At least give evils chance to lynch a town before immune guy dies.


Note that I said Consigliere would have trouble, not impossible

Unless you're dumb, consort needs to write their will exactly how they did it. Otherwise they can get called out for it, and before you say 'Mafia can just say they got roleblocked' if Spy exists, and you die as Consort, well, isn't that just funny. That person that was visited was never visited according to the spy will. Oops, 2 mafia dead in one stone.
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Re: The New Spy Change

Postby Soulshade55r » Mon Aug 21, 2017 7:49 pm

Agreed. spy's ability is way over powered at finding mafia, framer and hex master are usless when sheriff finds fake coven/mafia, consigilere needs to mix up his will (use some mafia and dead people along the way), consort can't claim consort, spy can tell fake blackmails, spy can see if people died or not, if visited by mafia/coven, so much more that spy is good at finding

people say spy is useless but I disagree so much (Dealing with a non mafia/coven game they are useless has hell)

"Reworked" I thought it would be a different role... not given a small "buff"
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Re: The New Spy Change

Postby Soulshade55r » Mon Aug 21, 2017 8:14 pm

If a invest finds a consort they are dead if spy is in game.
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Re: The New Spy Change

Postby FrankHesse » Mon Aug 21, 2017 8:29 pm

Soulshade55r wrote:If a invest finds a consort they are dead if spy is in game.

Claim trans or claim escort with different will, or claim the invest is evil, or do whatever.
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Re: The New Spy Change

Postby Soulshade55r » Mon Aug 21, 2017 9:15 pm

If you show your will you will be caught out escort and trans are usually bad claims unless you are good at pretending to block mafia team members and some dead people
Of course this can still backfire
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Re: The New Spy Change

Postby DeadLittleLamb » Tue Aug 22, 2017 3:47 pm

I cannot believe they decided to keep the ability, and here I was hoping Spy would turn out to be a balanced and decent TI for once. Thew new bug ability makes it so Spy will be able to tell Mafioso, Consigliere, and some other roles that receive their own feedback without any doubt. This is ridiculous.
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Re: The New Spy Change

Postby DumbStorm » Tue Aug 22, 2017 3:51 pm

DeadLittleLamb wrote:I cannot believe they decided to keep the ability, and here I was hoping Spy would turn out to be a balanced and decent TI for once. Thew new bug ability makes it so Spy will be able to tell Mafioso, Consigliere, and some other roles that receive their own feedback without any doubt. This is ridiculous.


Exactly. The bug ability might have been ok on its own, but combined with the OP 'all faction visit' ability, its broken beyond repair.
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Re: The New Spy Change

Postby Soulshade55r » Tue Aug 22, 2017 3:52 pm

spy should just know everyones role and name and have pestilence attack and immune.
that would be balanced...

But I agree spy was already quite strong even though most people was complaining about it being too weak...
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Re: The New Spy Change

Postby Oskio » Wed Aug 23, 2017 6:24 pm

What about making spy only able to visit on full moon nights?
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Re: The New Spy Change

Postby Soulshade55r » Wed Aug 23, 2017 9:01 pm

what will that change lol?
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Re: The New Spy Change

Postby Jerme » Wed Aug 23, 2017 11:48 pm

I remember that I've been told of an other version of the new Spies ability, which I liked more than this one :c
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Re: The New Spy Change

Postby DumbStorm » Thu Aug 24, 2017 6:37 am

Jerme wrote:I remember that I've been told of an other version of the new Spies ability, which I liked more than this one :c


What was it? Any details?
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Re: The New Spy Change

Postby Jerme » Thu Aug 24, 2017 11:35 pm

DumbStorm wrote:
Jerme wrote:I remember that I've been told of an other version of the new Spies ability, which I liked more than this one :c


What was it? Any details?

I keep that for myself for now, maybe this will be implemented as a role in the future.
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Re: The New Spy Change

Postby Klainatta » Fri Aug 25, 2017 4:07 am

Jerme wrote:
DumbStorm wrote:
Jerme wrote:I remember that I've been told of an other version of the new Spies ability, which I liked more than this one :c


What was it? Any details?

I keep that for myself for now, maybe this will be implemented as a role in the future.


Such a tease! :D :explode:
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