The Coven Update's Hits and Misses

Which of these roles do you actually like?

Tracker
59
17%
Ambusher
36
10%
Crusader
25
7%
Trapper
34
10%
Mystery Role
28
8%
Hypnotist
29
8%
Pirate
41
12%
Psychic
27
8%
Guardian Angel
36
10%
Plaguebearer
40
11%
 
Total votes : 355

Re: The Coven Update's Hits and Misses

Postby HereThereEverywhere » Sat Jun 03, 2017 1:15 pm

It's luck as in you could be great at Mafia, but shit at Town. Therefore you're more likely going to be better off rolling as Mafia, which is just luck.

Opinions are opinions, they can change. That in itself shows that not one is right. In my opinion, pink is the best color. Go ahead, prove that your opinion is the correct one.
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Re: The Coven Update's Hits and Misses

Postby Tigerleap » Sat Jun 03, 2017 1:38 pm

HereThereEverywhere wrote:It's luck as in you could be great at Mafia, but shit at Town. Therefore you're more likely going to be better off rolling as Mafia, which is just luck.

Opinions are opinions, they can change. That in itself shows that not one is right. In my opinion, pink is the best color. Go ahead, prove that your opinion is the correct one.


Wait, are you talking about how good the player is? So you're saying that someone could be good playing as one role but not one as another? If that's what you're trying to say, then I think you have once again mistaken skill for luck.

What you are trying to say is that a player has little skill with Town roles, but more skill with Mafia roles. What you mean is that a player's effectiveness in-game is determined by the role the game's RNG assigns them, but this depends on two things, neither of which are luck:

1: How balanced a role is. If BMG has balanced a role poorly, then well, of course players playing as this role will be at a disadvantage, but you can't blame this on the game's RNG, since this isn't something that is supposed to happen. In an ideally balanced ToS, this sort of balance wouldn't be a problem, and BMG is trying to figure out ways to balance the game as we speak. For example, game-throwers aren't supposed to be a thing, and yet we see them from time to time, unfairly ruining people's chances of winning the game. But is this luck? No, it isn't.

2: The player's actual skill. Not all of us are good with every role. Is this luck? No! If a player isn't good at playing as a certain role, then the problem lies in the player and the player only, and to fix this, the player must change their play-style or figure out new strategies so they can have an equal chance with every role.

"Skill and luck are bound to intercept each other, and thus the two cannot coexist in harmony."

-Tigerleap


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FAQ

Spoiler: FAQ:
Why am I called Tigerleap? - It's my Warrior Cat name!
What is my favorite role? - The Lookout is the most fun role for me to play as.
What is my least favorite role? - The Pirate; it's absolutely cancer and we must get rid of it.
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Re: The Coven Update's Hits and Misses

Postby HereThereEverywhere » Sat Jun 03, 2017 1:43 pm

It's still luck-based. You might not play as hard with a role you don't like, you might not be as good at it(Not everyone is going to be good at all roles, in fact, I'd bet most aren't), so luck is deciding how well you do. Look at SK, that's a finely balanced role. The game isn't balanced for it, but it's balanced. Are you saying a good player can win as often as they win with Town? No? Then it's luck whether or not you even have a chance at winning, because SK's is pretty grim.


Again, just to make sure you're actually reading this bit: Opinions are opinions. The point is that people can believe whatever they want and it's not "wrong".
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Re: The Coven Update's Hits and Misses

Postby Tigerleap » Sat Jun 03, 2017 1:47 pm

Some people believe that the Arso is overpowered and the game needs a 'Firefighter' role to balance the game. Are they wrong?

"Skill and luck are bound to intercept each other, and thus the two cannot coexist in harmony."

-Tigerleap


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FAQ

Spoiler: FAQ:
Why am I called Tigerleap? - It's my Warrior Cat name!
What is my favorite role? - The Lookout is the most fun role for me to play as.
What is my least favorite role? - The Pirate; it's absolutely cancer and we must get rid of it.
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Re: The Coven Update's Hits and Misses

Postby HereThereEverywhere » Sat Jun 03, 2017 1:53 pm

Fine, some opinions are wrong when facts directly oppose them. The Arsonist's winrate shows that it is not overpowered. What undeniable facts can you show me that say RNG is bad?
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Re: The Coven Update's Hits and Misses

Postby Tigerleap » Sat Jun 03, 2017 2:10 pm

I will answer that question with yet another question!

Do you think that skill should determine who wins in a game of Town of Salem?

If your answer is yes:
Spoiler: "Skill and luck are bound to intercept each other, and thus the two cannot coexist in harmony."
Is this quote false? No, it isn't! If something in a game is determined by luck, then this is unfair to the skilled players.

For example, let's look at the WW. The WW is a role that only kills every other night. What if we made it so that the WW could attack every night, but its attack had a 50% chance of succeeding? On average, the WW's results would be very similar to the current WW, but I think we can both agree that it would be a worse role. Potentially, the WW could successfully kill every night, making it about as strong as a Pestilence. But it is also possible that the WW could get no successful kills for the entire game, making it useless. These two results are both horrible, right? But the actual WW player gets no say in the WW's success; the RNG decides whether the WW will attack, and therefore whether the WW will win or not, regardless of how good or bad the player is.


If your answer is no:
Spoiler: Sorry to break it to you, but Town of Salem is a game of skill, not luck. Town of Salem is officially described as "a game of murder, deception, lying and mob hysteria." Does that sound like a game that would be based on skill or luck? Yeah, that's what I thought.

"Skill and luck are bound to intercept each other, and thus the two cannot coexist in harmony."

-Tigerleap


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FAQ

Spoiler: FAQ:
Why am I called Tigerleap? - It's my Warrior Cat name!
What is my favorite role? - The Lookout is the most fun role for me to play as.
What is my least favorite role? - The Pirate; it's absolutely cancer and we must get rid of it.
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Re: The Coven Update's Hits and Misses

Postby HereThereEverywhere » Sat Jun 03, 2017 2:13 pm

But what if I think RNG makes the game more interesting? What if I think it makes it more fun? That's why you can't change my opinion. You can't tell me what to believe.


Also, mob hysteria and murder? Those sound VERY luck-based. There's no skill involved in being stabbed to death, nor is there skill involved in hysteria.
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Re: The Coven Update's Hits and Misses

Postby Tigerleap » Sat Jun 03, 2017 2:28 pm

Well then, too bad! You want a game that's fun and interesting, eh? Then go and find a game that's fun and interesting! If you like luck-based games, then you're more than welcome to go and play a luck-based game, but understand that Town of Salem isn't a luck-based game. If you think luck makes things fun, then that's great, but not in Town of Salem it isn't!

You need to understand that Town of Salem is a game built on skill, and as I've said for a million times already, "skill and luck are bound to intercept each other, and thus the two cannot coexist in harmony." I wish that there was a way for us both to get what we want, but there isn't. This is a skill game, and you can't have both skill and luck. Understood?

So there's the fact that intercepts your opinion! You know what this fact is called? It's called skill! Skill and luck directly intercept each other, and therefore adding luck to a skill game will undermine the skill aspect, which is literally the concept that the entirety of Town of Salem is built on.

Skill > Luck
It's like Balance > Lore, a statement so true that nobody can deny. It's like saying, "but I think basing Invest results on lore makes the game more interesting." That opinion is directly wrong.

So no, Luck is not welcome to piss in our Skill pool, or else it will become so polluted that even the players who want more luck added to the game won't want to play it.

"Skill and luck are bound to intercept each other, and thus the two cannot coexist in harmony."

-Tigerleap


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FAQ

Spoiler: FAQ:
Why am I called Tigerleap? - It's my Warrior Cat name!
What is my favorite role? - The Lookout is the most fun role for me to play as.
What is my least favorite role? - The Pirate; it's absolutely cancer and we must get rid of it.
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Re: The Coven Update's Hits and Misses

Postby HereThereEverywhere » Sat Jun 03, 2017 3:03 pm

Tigerleap wrote:Skill > Luck
It's like Balance > Lore

It's really not. Skill > luck is an opinion. Skill and luck can both be used in games, whereas balance is a lot more important than lore. Lore is for storytelling, whereas balance is good for all games. Skill and luck aren't the same as balance and lore.
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Re: The Coven Update's Hits and Misses

Postby Tigerleap » Sat Jun 03, 2017 3:17 pm

If Skill > Luck then a game is a skill game.
Town of Salem is a skill game...
Can you deny that ToS is a skill game? Because the entirety of ToS is built on skill. Also, can you please read the other part of my previous post?

"Skill and luck are bound to intercept each other, and thus the two cannot coexist in harmony."

-Tigerleap


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FAQ

Spoiler: FAQ:
Why am I called Tigerleap? - It's my Warrior Cat name!
What is my favorite role? - The Lookout is the most fun role for me to play as.
What is my least favorite role? - The Pirate; it's absolutely cancer and we must get rid of it.
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Re: The Coven Update's Hits and Misses

Postby HereThereEverywhere » Sat Jun 03, 2017 3:19 pm

You said skill > luck. You didn't specify in ToS. I know ToS is a skill game. But in general skill > luck isn't true. You still haven't even told me why a GA not being able to choose their target makes them not NB no matter how many times I've asked, so I'm done here.
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Re: The Coven Update's Hits and Misses

Postby Tigerleap » Sat Jun 03, 2017 3:40 pm

Now you're just straight-up lying. First of all, quit trying to change the topic! "Oh, but you didn't specify it was for Town of Salem!" Yes, yes I did!

Well then, too bad! You want a game that's fun and interesting, eh? Then go and find a game that's fun and interesting! If you like luck-based games, then you're more than welcome to go and play a luck-based game, but understand that Town of Salem isn't a luck-based game. If you think luck makes things fun, then that's great, but not in Town of Salem it isn't!


I don't have anything wrong with luck-based games, and if you like these sort of games, then I won't judge you, because I don't have the right to dictate what games you do and don't play. But Town of Salem isn't meant to be a luck-based game, and you would understand this if you would actually read my posts!

As for the GA problem, you're also straight-up lying. I did explain why it isn't Benign. *Sigh* I suppose that I can explain it again...

The GA is not Benign because it can't win with everyone; not everyone can win if the GA's target lives. For example, if the GA's target is a Townie, then the GA can't win with the Mafia because the Mafia needs to kill the Townies. The game's RNG dictates who the GA can win with, not the GA itself, but NB roles are roles that can win with everyone. Therefore the GA isn't entirely Benign.

You've asked this GA question before once, and I provided you with a solid answer, and yet you choose to ignore it.

So please... actually read my posts before making another reply. And stop pretending like I'm the ignorant one here. And quit asking questions that I've already answered, only to complain that I haven't answered them! I shouldn't have to baby someone who has 2,500 posts, but I guess this proves post count doesn't matter.

"Skill and luck are bound to intercept each other, and thus the two cannot coexist in harmony."

-Tigerleap


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FAQ

Spoiler: FAQ:
Why am I called Tigerleap? - It's my Warrior Cat name!
What is my favorite role? - The Lookout is the most fun role for me to play as.
What is my least favorite role? - The Pirate; it's absolutely cancer and we must get rid of it.
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Re: The Coven Update's Hits and Misses

Postby Belshy » Sat Jun 03, 2017 3:46 pm

HereThereEverywhere wrote:Opinions are opinions. The point is that people can believe whatever they want and it's not "wrong".


Just, this.

I'm afraid to tell you that you're beating a dead horse... I wholeheartedly agree with this statement, and everything you've said thus far, but Tigerleap is likely a fifteen year old child who absolutely believes he can 'win' an opinion based argument. Save your time for meaningful arguments, this one's not worth it. :roll:
Hollr wrote:Also I lost -12 elo as surv so may I suggest you collectivly engage in intercourse with yourselves.


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Re: The Coven Update's Hits and Misses

Postby HereThereEverywhere » Sat Jun 03, 2017 4:02 pm

GA can win with anyone. It is capable of winning with anyone. Now, it can win with literally anyone, it only depends on the target, and since the target can be anyone, they can win with anyone.
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Re: The Coven Update's Hits and Misses

Postby Tigerleap » Sat Jun 03, 2017 4:19 pm

HereThereEverywhere wrote:Fine, some opinions are wrong when facts directly oppose them. The Arsonist's winrate shows that it is not overpowered. What undeniable facts can you show me that say RNG is bad?

@Belshy
This right here is something that I can agree with, and it contradicts the previous quoted statement. Oh, and Belshy, you're the one who's been calling me names and such, while I've only criticized your opinions instead of you in real life.

No, I do not think that you are an idiot, Belshy, and I'm sorry if you are a fan of chaos and you like luck, but this isn't the place for it. If you want to play a luck-based game, then go ahead; I won't judge you, but it cannot be denied that Town of Salem is based on skill. Although I am the only one being vocal in this particular post, you need to realize that pretty much everyone except for you two and a few others disagrees with RNG. The Pirate is the most hated role from the new update, and pretty much every experienced player agrees that RNG is bad.

And, as @HereThereEverywhere has stated, an opinion can be "wrong" if there are facts that directly intercept it, which is the case with RNG, as me and multiple experienced players have stated. If you like All Any and you like chaos, then that's fine! You can have the unbalanced All Any world all to yourself with nobody to criticize you, but keep your ideals to Chaos modes only, and not Ranked.

I'm willing to bet that BMG is going to actually do something about the new roles, and you know that, too. They may not remove the Pirate, but they will likely restrict it to All Any and Custom modes only. So, let us cut this argument short, though I do have a few terms.

RNG and Chaos are acceptable in modes like All Any and Custom, since they're made to be chaotic and "fun," but RNG roles will be kept out of the Ranked game-modes, since they do not belong there. You are welcome to say or think whatever it is you want about Chaos as long as it doesn't add luck into Ranked-based game-modes, which are entirely based on skill and do not need luck. This post here is based on how the new roles affect competitive, skill-based gameplay, and therefore RNG adding "fun" to the game is not a valid argument to be used in this post.

So, what do you say? Will you keep throwing meaningless insults at me, or will you accept that RNG must be kept out of Ranked and competitive game-modes, though it doesn't have to be removed from the game altogether.

The GA Issue

You are right that it is true that the GA can theoretically win with every single role. But having its target be of a certain faction restricts the GA from siding with the other factions in that particular game. A Survivor or Amnesiac can side with Mafia if they want, but a GA can't side with Mafia if their target is a Townie. I feel like Neutral Benign roles should have the freedom to choose what faction they want to win with, and the GA just doesn't have this freedom.

Additionally, the GA, in its current state, at least, is very difficult to win with. The GA's target will more than likely die, and if it does, then the GA just becomes a darn Survivor, which I don't think should happen.

"Skill and luck are bound to intercept each other, and thus the two cannot coexist in harmony."

-Tigerleap


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FAQ

Spoiler: FAQ:
Why am I called Tigerleap? - It's my Warrior Cat name!
What is my favorite role? - The Lookout is the most fun role for me to play as.
What is my least favorite role? - The Pirate; it's absolutely cancer and we must get rid of it.
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Re: The Coven Update's Hits and Misses

Postby Belshy » Sat Jun 03, 2017 4:46 pm

Belshy wrote:Given that I play Chaos I see the roles from a completely different perspective as someone who might play Ranked or other game modes, but given that I feel almost everything in this community is based on the opinion of Ranked players or aimed to improve Ranked, I don't mind giving my two cents on behalf of my opinion in relation to other game modes.


I'm just going to leave this here. I have maintained that I've ONLY been talking about Chaos AA and the role on it's own since the beginning. I agree that all of these roles could be potentially detrimental to gameplay in certain modes, (and specificed that in my initial response when talking about certain roles) however when you asked people to tell you why they voted for what they did in the polls, you did not specify if these opinions were based on Ranked.

The forums are for the ToS community as a whole, not only Ranked players, and I stated before, there are many serious and experienced players who support this game who don't play Ranked. It would do you well to open your mind to the game as a whole and not only Ranked, because many people have different opinions based on different game-modes. Further, it would also be tremendously beneficial to you to structure your arguments to specify when you are talking about the game in specifics and not as a whole. Saying "the ToS community" groups everyone as a whole, versus "the Ranked community".

Tchau. :wave:
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Re: The Coven Update's Hits and Misses

Postby Tigerleap » Sat Jun 03, 2017 5:32 pm

It seems as if this discussion has never really been about RNG itself, but about Ranked and competitive game-modes. I was not aware that my opponents in this argument were talking exclusively about Chaos; I thought that they were saying that the new roles were good for competitive game-play, but this isn't true. This was a big mistake on my part, and I should've made it clear that I was talking about competitive game-modes. I have added a disclaimer in the beginning of the post, and I will no longer be discussing Chaos game-modes.

My main focus here is that these Chaos roles are being implemented into both Chaos and competitive game-modes, which is a huge mistake on BMG's part, and definitely something that needs to be fixed. I am not an avid Chaos player, and I do not care what BMG adds to Chaos as long as it doesn't ruin competitive play.

I do not take back what I said about RNG, however; RNG is an existing evil that we must cleanse this game of. I honestly doubt that BMG is going to undo all of their additions, but they can at least make some of the new roles exclusive to Custom so that we, the Ranked community, don't have to suffer.

So yes, I still hate the roles I do, especially the Pirate; yes, I think that the GA is not Benign, and yes, I do indeed hate RNG, but it's not fair to judge the Chaos game-modes through these standards.

Adding luck to the game drains the game of skill, therefore luck must only be added in places where skill is not needed, but kept away from competitive play, where skill is needed.

"Skill and luck are bound to intercept each other, and thus the two cannot coexist in harmony."

-Tigerleap


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FAQ

Spoiler: FAQ:
Why am I called Tigerleap? - It's my Warrior Cat name!
What is my favorite role? - The Lookout is the most fun role for me to play as.
What is my least favorite role? - The Pirate; it's absolutely cancer and we must get rid of it.
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Re: The Coven Update's Hits and Misses

Postby Belshy » Sat Jun 03, 2017 9:24 pm

Frustratingly, I just wrote a huge post to get timed-out and lose it all. :-x

I'll summerize. As I said, many of your opinions may be true for a Ranked-based game, however as I said I was focusing on the role as a whole and for Chaos in my opinion. I do know there are many roles that have been changed to benefit Ranked in the past, however, without consideration of how it would affect any other game mode. Considering Ranked is only one of many, it's a bit frustrating.

For example, Arsonist needed a buff in terms of Ranked, due to the 1 and rarely 2 Arsonists that might appear in the game I can understand the low W/L ratio. However, the changes for Arsonist were absolutely dreadful for Chaos as there are 15 "Any" spots, and with the presence of any more than 1-2 Arsonists, (sometimes 3-4) the role became very OP in certain situations. Despite this, we too got the changes.

My point in short is that it will be interesting to see if BMG decides to limit the presence of certain roles in Ranked mode in the Coven expansion, as this may possibly be the best way to satisfy all parties without having to rework or completely take away some of the roles. I am still not denying that there are some if not many of the roles that need to be reworked or improved, but perhaps only time will tell how they deal with all the mixed reviews of some of the roles. Even I have many suggestions in what could improve the Pirate as a whole.

With all opinions, it is important to keep in mind nobody is forced to play Coven Ranked, and being that it's a paid expansion, many people likely will not. BMG could completely decide to ignore all suggestions of Ranked and Chaos gameplay in terms of the new roles; again, only time will tell.

Trusting that we can have a neutral and friendly conversation, onto a new subject which was really the whole premise of this post.

Tigerleap wrote:A Neutral Benign role is a role that can win with potentially anyone.


I agree with this in theory, but not in practice. ToS has been a bit controversial in their word choice for some factions. Given that the name of the game is Town of Salem, which is obviously suggesting the Salem witch trials, the game has until now been mafia-town based--it's understandable for them to stretch definitions, perhaps even expected. NB is currently home to 3 roles: GA, Survivor, Amnesiac. Of all of these roles the only truly benign one is Survivor. My understanding of the Neutral factions is this:
    Neutral Evil: Roles that *usually* require killing to fulfill their primary goal, but can win with anyone/everyone.
    Neutral Chaos: As in the name, complete chaos; no definable boundaries.
    Neutral Killing: Roles with the ability to kill at night, can only win with NB.
    Neutral Benign: Roles that do not require killing and have the potential to win with anyone*.

*note: I say anyone and not everyone because the only truly benign role to win with everyone is Survivor.

Using these guidelines it makes some sense that he is a NB, as he does have the potential to win with anyone. He doesn't have guidelines to kill any specific faction(s) to fulfill his primary goal, so long as his target lives, which could also be a Survivor. I understand the debate due to the fact that his faction heavily affects this, however if GA is not acceptable for NB, neither is Amnesiac, as he doesn't win with eveyone either, and in fact will lose completely if he doesn't choose a role. The obvious argument here is that he gets to chose his faction, however the problem with the argument of benign is just that: he doesn't have the ability to win with everyone, ever, unless he chooses Survivor, coming back to Survivor being the only truly NB role. In short, the term benign is being stretched by BMG, and this is all just a problem of exact definition.

There is some difference, I will agree, in that Amnesiac gets to choose his faction, however unless he waits for quite awhile or it is apparent that one faction has an advantage over the other, he doesn't necessarily have the knowledge to know the best faction to join. Further, he then can only remember roles which have died so there are often times when he doesn't have the ability to win at all.
For example, if it is apparent mafia is going to win but no mafia have died and he is the NB, he doesn't have a role to choose to ensure his win with mafia. He would be forced to either join a losing battle, or forfeit a win entirely by not choosing.

I wouldn't disagree that perhaps this is all a problem of categorization, and he could instead perhaps be put into the NC faction, however seeing as he does have the potential to win with everyone, I can see the dilemma. Again though, anyone/everyone is the key, here. Benign being ideally everyone, when in reality (in ToS) it's just anyone. He is NB in terms of ToS definition.

Then again, I would argue for the same reasons that Witch (not Coven) should be NC, and not NE due to the fact it is not necessary for her to kill and she doesn't win with everyone and only evils, but then that brings further problems and again is really just a matter of interpretation of each faction's boundaries.
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Re: The Coven Update's Hits and Misses

Postby HereThereEverywhere » Sat Jun 03, 2017 9:29 pm

I would say Neutral Evil is supposed to be anti-Town, or at least it should be changed to be that way. Witch is a wildcard if not. Jester should be changed to only harm Town, and Exe should be modified as well imo.
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Re: The Coven Update's Hits and Misses

Postby Belshy » Sat Jun 03, 2017 10:38 pm

HereThereEverywhere wrote:I would say Neutral Evil is supposed to be anti-Town, or at least it should be changed to be that way. Witch is a wildcard if not. Jester should be changed to only harm Town, and Exe should be modified as well imo.


Personally I have no comments on Exe/Jester, however I do think Witch being NE is a total wildcard given that the Exe has to lynch their target to win, and Jester has to be hung and be forced to kill a guilty voter. Both of those require death, but then they win with any faction, and therefore Witch doesn't really fit given that she doesn't kill and she can only win with evils.

That's exactly what I'm saying about Witch not belonging in this category... either she needs to be moved or the other roles need to be changed to also be against town... otherwise it just doesn't make sense, really. Though, I'm not sure that I would have any suitable suggestions for changing either of those two roles so the former seems to be the best option.

Anyway, this is kind of off the original topic. Just wanted to explain why I think GA is considered NB and not anything else.
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Re: The Coven Update's Hits and Misses

Postby Tigerleap » Sat Jun 03, 2017 11:43 pm

Amnesiac

I understand what you mean about the 'winning with everyone' situation, and I probably should've said 'anyone' instead of 'everyone.' A Benign role should be a role that can win with anyone, like the Survivor and the Amnesiac.

I do understand, however, that the Amnesiac cannot side with the NK roles since roles have to die for Amne to be able to remember them. That being said, the Amnesiac can't win with anyone it wants, since the only way for it to win with the NK is to remember Survivor or Witch. However, if the NK dies, the Amnesiac can remember the NK role, but whether this counts as 'winning with anyone' or not is up to debate; it can win with any faction it wants, but not with any player.

Fortunately, BMG is working on the Amnesiac to make it less Town-sided, and once the new update is released, it will be able to remember unique roles like Mafioso. But yes, I understand that the Amnesiac isn't capable of winning with the Neutral Killing, and it can't side with a faction until one of its members dies, but hey, at least it isn't RNG. Overall, I feel like we should stretch the definitions for certain alignments a little, especially NB. How about we make Neutral Benign be: a role that has the freedom to choose its alignment, whether it be literally or figuratively.

Witch

I really don't understand how Witch isn't a Neutral Evil.

I get that the Witch can only win with the evils, but the Witch has been in the game for as long as I can remember, and it's unfair to wrap the definition for a NE role around the other two roles only. To define NE, we must wrap the definition among all three existing NE roles.

"Skill and luck are bound to intercept each other, and thus the two cannot coexist in harmony."

-Tigerleap


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Why am I called Tigerleap? - It's my Warrior Cat name!
What is my favorite role? - The Lookout is the most fun role for me to play as.
What is my least favorite role? - The Pirate; it's absolutely cancer and we must get rid of it.
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Re: The Coven Update's Hits and Misses

Postby Belshy » Sun Jun 04, 2017 7:13 am

My problem with Witch being considered a NE is that in practice she is widely different than Exe and Jester. I do agree that in theory she is entirely NE, however in terms of her goals and her ability to win with "anyone", she is in an entirely seperate realm.

As I said before, Witch doesn't have to kill to fulfill her goal, and wins only with evils and NB.
Exe and Jester on the other hand have to kill to fulfill their goal, and then they can win with everyone.

I do understand needing boundaries to fit them all, being that each has been a longterm member of the faction, however I personally can think of no other way to describe them, as they are so widely different.
Hollr wrote:Also I lost -12 elo as surv so may I suggest you collectivly engage in intercourse with yourselves.


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Re: The Coven Update's Hits and Misses

Postby JazzMusicStops » Sun Jun 04, 2017 7:28 am

Belshy wrote:Witch doesn't have to kill to fulfill her goal

Yes she does otherwise she loses
And you may say to yourself, "My God! What have I done?"

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Re: The Coven Update's Hits and Misses

Postby Belshy » Sun Jun 04, 2017 8:52 am

JammySplodge wrote:
Belshy wrote:Witch doesn't have to kill to fulfill her goal

Yes she does otherwise she loses


No she doesn't. She just has to remain alive and win with evil factions. She has no necessity to kill.
Hollr wrote:Also I lost -12 elo as surv so may I suggest you collectivly engage in intercourse with yourselves.


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Re: The Coven Update's Hits and Misses

Postby Kikigiri » Sun Jun 04, 2017 4:07 pm

Tigerleap wrote:[You are right that it is true that the GA can theoretically win with every single role. But having its target be of a certain faction restricts the GA from siding with the other factions in that particular game. A Survivor or Amnesiac can side with Mafia if they want, but a GA can't side with Mafia if their target is a Townie. I feel like Neutral Benign roles should have the freedom to choose what faction they want to win with, and the GA just doesn't have this freedom.
Currently, a GA can totally win with the Mafia. They can outright say "hey, Mafia, my target is [X] but I can tell they're not maf, I'll vote with you so let's lynch them and end this." The GA will then become a Survivor (unless their target's death ends the game - which actually incentivizes the GA to do it sooner.)
Please put the Witch in Coven mode. I miss it. :-(
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