The Coven Update's Hits and Misses

Which of these roles do you actually like?

Tracker
59
17%
Ambusher
36
10%
Crusader
25
7%
Trapper
34
10%
Mystery Role
28
8%
Hypnotist
29
8%
Pirate
41
12%
Psychic
27
8%
Guardian Angel
36
10%
Plaguebearer
40
11%
 
Total votes : 355

The Coven Update's Hits and Misses

Postby Tigerleap » Thu May 18, 2017 8:01 pm

Disclaimer: This is a post explaining the effect that the new roles will have on the Coven version of Ranked and other competitive game-modes. I am not taking game-modes like All Any and Custom into account!

This post is fully updated as of: 6/7/2017
Recently I found out that there's a huge update coming soon. Although I was hyped at first since a big update was long overdue, this update simply introduces too much content, and it's updates like these that make Town of Salem not feel like Town of Salem.

First and foremost, I would like to talk about the Coven update being an expansion rather than a new gamemode. So, here are the pros and cons:

Pros:
  • It's entirely optional to play and is just meant for fun
  • There will be less inexperienced players and cheaters
  • There's a lot of (forgive the word choice, but there's no other way to say it) cool stuff being added that will make the game interesting and relevant again
  • The new roles and their crazy abilities will make the game more difficult and encourage players to think more

Cons:
  • Not everyone will be able to get the expansion since it costs money
  • The new gamemodes don't seem to be very balanced
  • The Covens are too weak to compete with the new Town roles, especially with the Psychic

So, anyway, moving on! I won't be talking about the Coven gamemode itself or its roles in this post because I think that the Coven roles deserve to be ranked in a separate post. To summarize my experience with the Coven roles in a few sentences, I like all of them except for the Hex-master, and my favorite is the Potion Master.

Judging the Roles

    GOOD roles:
  • Tracker- the Tracker is a simple but effective concept, and I'm glad it's finally being added.
  • Ambusher- it seems like a really strong Mafia role; it does have a lot of potential, but requires skill to be used effectively.
  • Trapper- the Trapper is the well-rounded Protector that we've always needed. The Trapper can only lay down traps every other turn, but those traps are permanent until they are activated. When activated, they give useful information to the Trapper, though it isn't too useful. These traps allow the Trapper to protect important Townies without having to stay on them every night, and they are Mafioso-proof, but the Mafia can get around this by sending a Mafia Support/Deception to someone they suspect is trapped. Traps will also be triggered if a Townie visits, so they aren't too powerful. This role has its ups and downs, but overall, I'd say it's balanced.

    UNCLEAR roles:
  • Juggernaut- I've seen the role's description, but since I've never seen it in an actual game, I cannot make a clear conclusion about it.

    BAD roles:
  • Crusader- I haven't seen too much of the Crusader yet, but I think it's under-powered. My main concern with this role is that it uses RNG to select which visitor it kills. In my opinion, it should select the visitor based on reverse-priority. The other flaw of this role is that it's too weak. Since its attack is Basic, the only scum attacker it can kill is Mafioso (it can take out an Ambusher, but it loses its life, too). This role is great against Covens, but in vanilla game-modes, there's only 2-3 scums it can actually kill as compared to all of the visiting Town roles it can kill. No TP role should be this unreliable.
  • Hypnotist- unless I misunderstood the description, this is RNG! RNG is always bad because it often leads to unbalance. RNG is especially bad in this case because the Hypnotist is a Mafia role. If the RNG selects an impossible message, it could reveal that there is a Hypnotist in the game. For example, if a player gets a notification that they have been attacked + healed, but Town Prot and RT are both dead, they will know it's likely that Random Mafia is a Hypnotist, which makes the Hypnotist's ability semi-useless for the rest of the game if this information is disclosed.
  • Psychic- this role is at this point blatantly overpowered. I honestly don't know what BMG was smoking when they made this role; it breaks all the "laws" of To$ roles. It uses RNG not once, but twice--and on every single turn--and it auto-confirms Town members. It's just OP that you can know that at least one of three players is evil, and keep getting information of this sort every other night. If two of the players for any reason die and aren't scums, then the last scum is screwed just because they had bad luck. The only weakness of this role is that it's extremely easy to fake, but that's about it. Imo, this role shouldn't get nerfed; it should get scrapped. There is no possible change to this role that could make it non-RNG, so the only solution is a full-on rework.
  • Guardian Angel- this role is pointless and it harms the game more than anything. NB roles are supposed to be able to choose their side, but this role is forced to be biased towards one randomly chosen player. I know that you could say the same about Executioner, but all of the Executioner's targets are Town, and he isn't Benign. This role's influence on the game varies wildly depending on the role of the player it's assigned, and it can potentially provide Town with another healer. Another problem is that it can't even protect its target that well. It only has two heals, so they have to be used wisely, or else their target will most likely die. Their target could disconnect, leave, get killed at night, be caught by Town as a scum, etc. The GA is powerless to stop the rest of the server from attacking their target, and also, their target may be a bad player, which leads to the GA losing for something that isn't their fault.
  • Plaguebearer- Even after the buff, this role remains unbalanced. I get that the role was UP, but I don't think that we should be building on a structure that is already flawed. This is a role that starts out as UP, but then becomes OP, making it structurally flawed; two wrongs do not make a right. However, I still think that it's an UP role altogether, and there is no buff or nerf that can fix this. In a quiet Town, this role might see some success, but in the VFR world that we live in, the Plaguebearer will most likely be lynched before it can even dream of becoming a Pestilence. And even if it becomes a Pestilence, it isn't really all that powerful! When a PB becomes a Pestilence, it's announced to the whole Town, which makes it easy for the Town to lynch the PB the following day. And even if they can't lynch them on the first try, smart Townies won't visit when they know there's a Pestilence, which makes the PB's rampaging attacks pretty much useless.

    HORRIBLE roles:
  • Pirate- oh boy, where do I even start with this one? The Pirate role is broken beyond repair, and it has no redeeming qualities whatsoever. This role chooses a player to duel every night, and the player's life depends on a stupid Rock-Paper-Scissors game. I know that RPS isn't technically RNG, but since you have no idea what the other player will pick, it basically is RNG. The worst part about this role is that it can easily screw over the entire game based on luck! It can potentially kill players back-to-back, AND it RBs them! SO MANY LIVES SHOULDN'T DEPEND ON DUMB LUCK! And as if this wasn't bad enough. after the Pirate gets its two kills, it becomes a stupid king-maker, free to do whatever it freaking wants to, and it can keep causing chaos for the entire game's duration. I honestly don't get why BMG hasn't apologized for this role yet...

The Fate of the Roles

And that was my opinion on all of the roles. Anyway, moving on! This is what I think should be done to fix all of the roles:
  • Tracker, Trapper, and Ambusher- Nothing.
  • Hypnotist- Make an interface that allows the Hypnotist to select their message instead of having RNG choosing the message.
  • Crusader- The Crusader attacks players based on priority, not luck.
  • Pirate- The Pirate loses its ability to plunder once it gets two kills, and (optionally) it also loses its ability to RB.
  • Guardian Angel and Psychic- Either a full rework or the role gets scrapped.
  • Neutral Chaos Roles (Vampire, Pirate, and Plaguebearer)- Can no longer appear as the Any in Ranked-based game-modes.
  • Juggernaut- Will have the same chance of appearing as the other Neutral Killing roles.

NOTES:
Spoiler: Entry 1: The Psychic is actually a really fun role to use. I've played it twice in the testing realm, and it's been good. In one game, I basically lead the Town as I just collected useful information night-to-night, and put it all together to foil the Coven's plans. However, this is no excuse for the RNG problems; the Psychic could potentially auto-confirm important roles and easily find the scums, depending on your luck. Not very fair, is it? BTW: In the role card, 'receive' is written as 'recieve'.

Entry 2: In a game of mine, there was a player who seemed really suspicious. As a Psychic, I knew that one of two players was evil, and this guy was one of them. When I put pressure on him, he claimed Tracker despite two other players previously claiming that. When I asked him to prove it, he said he couldn't because Tracker was broken. In his will, many visiting roles who has obviously visited were said to have stayed at their home. He ended up being an actual Tracker, so he must've been telling the truth. In addition to this, in their trial, a confirmed Townie said "it's true" when they claimed Tracker was broken.

Entry 3: The Medusa is bugged. When a target is killed by the Medusa, the will is shown.

Entry 4: The Plaguebearer is useless. He doesn't have immunity, and he can't even do anything until really late in the game. He'll probably end up being killed at night before he can even become a Pestilence. The whole design of the Plaguebearer just doesn't work; it's a role that is UP then becomes OP, but two bads don't make a good...

Entry 5: The Coven Classic rolelist is rigged in Town's favor. The evils have little KP and there isn't much that they can do against potent Investigators like the new Psychic and the Jailor. The Plaguebearer and Pirate do absolutely nothing and usually stay in the background for the entire game.

Entry 6: The Jailors in this game-mode (Coven Classic) are very incompetent. Often times I forget that we even have a Jailor. When there's someone who is confirmed to be scum, people like to leave this job to Jailor in case it's Exe > Jester, but when we ask for this in day chat, the Jailor doesn't answer our call. Why do Jailor players get so lazy in this game-mode?

Entry 7: I have seem many people claim that their role is broken, which is normal since it's a testing realm, but also odd. On my previous game I saw a Vigi who randomly shot a fellow Townie because they thought their ability was broken, and their role wan't working. I also saw a Medusa who openly announced their Role to the Town because they claimed it was broken.

Entry 8: As a Trapper, I caught a Potion Master in a Trap, but the Potion Master didn't die, and there was nobody that could've healed them. I'm pretty sure Covens don't have immunity.

Entry 9: There is a glitched achievement for the Trapper.

Entry 10: The report button doesn't work in the PTR, and many people are purposely game-throwing because they know there are no consequences to their actions. I had two games in a row where one person revealed who the VIP was on the first day...

Entry 11: I just had my first win as a Pestilence, which proves that it isn't entirely UP with the new changes, though I still do not know how balanced it is.

Entry 12: VIP mode is extremely Town-sided, even with four Covens.

Entry 13: The Coven DLC has been released, but some of the roles are so bad that the whole DLC feels incomplete.


So, BMG, I hope you're happy.
*sigh* what am I even doing with my life?
I judge these things so strictly, and yet I still put hours into this game. After the update... will I still play ToS? Yes. Will I play it a lot? Yes. Will I buy the expansion? Yes...
Oh, boy, I think I need to go outside more or somethin'...
Last edited by Tigerleap on Wed Jun 07, 2017 10:43 pm, edited 25 times in total.

"Skill and luck are bound to intercept each other, and thus the two cannot coexist in harmony."

-Tigerleap


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FAQ

Spoiler: FAQ:
Why am I called Tigerleap? - It's my Warrior Cat name!
What is my favorite role? - The Lookout is the most fun role for me to play as.
What is my least favorite role? - The Pirate; it's absolutely cancer and we must get rid of it.
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Re: The Coven Update's Hits and Misses

Postby emerald18nr » Thu May 18, 2017 10:25 pm

Specifically talking about the GA, I know the GA can have someone as Coven to be their target, and probably can have one from Mafia. Also, they are only immune to voting on the night after one of the two heals, so as long as you can make a good exe play in one day, GA can't do anything, since even if they, say, come forward as GA, they could be protecting evil roles. Also, I think the GA should turn into a survivor with 0 vests if they fail, to incentivize them to do a good job. I think it's a good concept, and another NB is never bad.
Changes I want:
Adding the Tracker role to the base game.
Make Retributionist able to revive Disguiser.
Remove Forger.
Remove town death notes, except for Jailor.
Rework/overhaul spy.
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Re: The Coven Update's Hits and Misses

Postby Tigerleap » Thu May 18, 2017 10:54 pm

emerald18nr wrote:Specifically talking about the GA, I know the GA can have someone as Coven to be their target, and probably can have one from Mafia. Also, they are only immune to voting on the night after one of the two heals, so as long as you can make a good exe play in one day, GA can't do anything, since even if they, say, come forward as GA, they could be protecting evil roles. Also, I think the GA should turn into a survivor with 0 vests if they fail, to incentivize them to do a good job. I think it's a good concept, and another NB is never bad.

What if GA's target is a leaver, though? I'd say two vests.

Anyway, about the role itself, I guess it isn't as bad as I initially thought, but it can be very powerful depending on who its target is. If GA's target is a scum, if Town is getting suspicious of them, GA can heal them to save them from Vigis, then make them vote immune.

It's definitely one of the better roles in the new update, but not by definition a 'good' role because it isn't really needed and can be too powerful for a NB.

"Skill and luck are bound to intercept each other, and thus the two cannot coexist in harmony."

-Tigerleap


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Spoiler: FAQ:
Why am I called Tigerleap? - It's my Warrior Cat name!
What is my favorite role? - The Lookout is the most fun role for me to play as.
What is my least favorite role? - The Pirate; it's absolutely cancer and we must get rid of it.
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Re: The Coven Update's Hits and Misses

Postby Icibalus » Fri May 19, 2017 2:50 am

Tigerleap wrote:BAD roles:
* Hypnotist- unless I misunderstood the description, this is RNG!


Well, Hypnotist is actually a good idea, but BMG managed to screw it up by making it RNG because... Actually, why didn't they bother to make an interface for it?
Read the Drug Dealer role idea. You'll see what was intended.
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Spoiler: FM - 3-7

Links:

None... yet.
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Re: The Coven Update's Hits and Misses

Postby JazzMusicStops » Fri May 19, 2017 4:38 am

Trapper protects the target that's why it's protective
And you may say to yourself, "My God! What have I done?"

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Re: The Coven Update's Hits and Misses

Postby DragonClaw66 » Fri May 19, 2017 5:39 am

The Hypnotist is based of Kirize12's Drug Dealer if I'm not mistaken. I actually think that the role is very well thought out.
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Re: The Coven Update's Hits and Misses

Postby JazzMusicStops » Fri May 19, 2017 6:06 am

DragonClaw66 wrote:The Hypnotist is based of Kirize12's Drug Dealer if I'm not mistaken. I actually think that the role is very well thought out.

I would be well thought out if it didn't give an random night result
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Re: The Coven Update's Hits and Misses

Postby Tigerleap » Fri May 19, 2017 6:40 am

Kirize's Drug Dealer was actually an excellent role idea, but with the Hypnotist, BMG has reminded me of the saddest truth: ToS is owned by BMG and BMG only--they rarely implement our community's ideas, and when they do, there's almost
always a catch.

What did we, the community, do to deserve this?

"Skill and luck are bound to intercept each other, and thus the two cannot coexist in harmony."

-Tigerleap


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FAQ

Spoiler: FAQ:
Why am I called Tigerleap? - It's my Warrior Cat name!
What is my favorite role? - The Lookout is the most fun role for me to play as.
What is my least favorite role? - The Pirate; it's absolutely cancer and we must get rid of it.
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Re: The Coven Update's Hits and Misses

Postby ElderSivart » Fri May 19, 2017 6:54 am

I'm confused as to why BMG made a UI for Pirate and not Hypnotist.
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Re: The Coven Update's Hits and Misses

Postby JazzMusicStops » Fri May 19, 2017 7:04 am

ElderSivart wrote:I'm confused as to why BMG made a UI for Pirate and not Hypnotist.

this tbh
And you may say to yourself, "My God! What have I done?"

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Re: The Coven Update's Hits and Misses

Postby HereThereEverywhere » Fri May 19, 2017 7:09 am

Drug Dealer gets changed to Hypnotist
I can make my name Drug Dealer in-game
Devs ban Drug Dealer or fix the role and fix the name

Also there's a PTR Feedback section and that's probably where this should be, since this is all PTR turf.
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Re: The Coven Update's Hits and Misses

Postby JazzMusicStops » Fri May 19, 2017 7:15 am

HereThereEverywhere wrote:Drug Dealer gets changed to Hypnotist
I can make my name Drug Dealer in-game
Devs ban Drug Dealer or fix the role and fix the name

Friend I do not believe that's how this works
And you may say to yourself, "My God! What have I done?"

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Re: The Coven Update's Hits and Misses

Postby HereThereEverywhere » Fri May 19, 2017 9:38 am

True. Bestiality is also an allowed name for some reason. Can't have an evil person use drugs, but you can have people play as animal rape.
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Re: The Coven Update's Hits and Misses

Postby JazzMusicStops » Fri May 19, 2017 9:41 am

You're confusing me what
And you may say to yourself, "My God! What have I done?"

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Re: The Coven Update's Hits and Misses

Postby HereThereEverywhere » Fri May 19, 2017 9:42 am

Drug Dealer = bad role name
Bestiality and Drug Dealer = good player names?
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Re: The Coven Update's Hits and Misses

Postby JazzMusicStops » Fri May 19, 2017 9:54 am

Okay but why do they have the choice of banning the name Drug Dealer or changing the name/role

Wouldn't they also have the choice of not doing shit
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Re: The Coven Update's Hits and Misses

Postby HereThereEverywhere » Fri May 19, 2017 9:57 am

They could've left the Hypnotist as Drug Dealer, because that's what it was supposed to be. I'd be more upset if the role were Drug Dealer though, because right now it is a different and worse role.
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Re: The Coven Update's Hits and Misses

Postby PinataColada » Fri May 19, 2017 10:48 am

HereThereEverywhere wrote:They could've left the Hypnotist as Drug Dealer, because that's what it was supposed to be. I'd be more upset if the role were Drug Dealer though, because right now it is a different and worse role.


I couldn't care less about the name. The randomness is the main problem here.

I can see why they don't want to use Drug Dealer as the name, though, since it is easy for watchdog groups to stir up bad news about it.
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Re: The Coven Update's Hits and Misses

Postby HereThereEverywhere » Fri May 19, 2017 10:58 am

If it were the real Drug Dealer and not a half-assed clone, I would be more adamant about the name because that was the name given to it by the creator. Even though Kirize said he doesn't really care about the name(I think that's what he said, haven't looked back in a while) it just feels disrespectful. Why is poisoning okay when drugging isn't? Also, if those people really care, then good for them. This game already has people being burned and eaten alive. Why would an evil person getting called "Drug Dealer" be worse than those? It's not promoting drug use either, because it is an evil role. Most people know that what bad guys do isn't what you should be doing.
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Re: The Coven Update's Hits and Misses

Postby PinataColada » Fri May 19, 2017 11:14 am

I don't mind it either way, but example arguments would include "this is a kiddy looking game and shouldn't have drugs" or "it is easier for kids to get in touch with drugs than to become a Serial KIller / join real life Mafia / go to Hogwarts and cast Avada Kedarva on people" and so on. They aren't necessarily good or convincing arguments, mind you, but it is better to avoid giving people ammunition for naming issues like this.
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Re: The Coven Update's Hits and Misses

Postby DragonClaw66 » Fri May 19, 2017 1:09 pm

Wait, the Hypnotist gives random results? You don't get to choose?
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Re: The Coven Update's Hits and Misses

Postby HereThereEverywhere » Fri May 19, 2017 1:26 pm

PinataColada wrote:I don't mind it either way, but example arguments would include "this is a kiddy looking game and shouldn't have drugs" or "it is easier for kids to get in touch with drugs than to become a Serial KIller / join real life Mafia / go to Hogwarts and cast Avada Kedarva on people" and so on. They aren't necessarily good or convincing arguments, mind you, but it is better to avoid giving people ammunition for naming issues like this.

I think it's kind of pointless to try and avoid this sort of thing in a game about murdering people for stupid reasons that's loosely based on a time period when people were murdered for stupid reasons. The thing about stupid arguments is that smart people, heck just normal people, know they're stupid. If anything, it's worse to make the evil role a "Hypnotist" than a "Drug Dealer". It gives hypnotists an evil connotation that it shouldn't have, whereas drugs are already taught to be bad.
DragonClaw66 wrote:Wait, the Hypnotist gives random results? You don't get to choose?

You cannot choose, which is why the role is currently garbage.
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Re: The Coven Update's Hits and Misses

Postby Tigerleap » Fri May 19, 2017 1:48 pm

It looks like this post is blowing up! Unfortunately, the main discussion is about something pointless and irrelevant. I am posting this comment for the sole purpose of wrapping up this argument. Anyway, here it is:

For once, I actually support BMG on something: 'Hypnotist' is a way better name than 'Drug Dealer'. The reason why is because the role name 'Drug Dealer' (not the player name) is not appropriate. By appropriate, I do not mean that it's too mature, but that it isn't adequate and doesn't fit the theme. It's like the difference between 'robber' and 'thief'. Both words mean the same thing, but 'thief' sounds more fanciful and better fits the theme of the era ToS takes place in. I know that 'Drug Dealer' and 'Hypnotist' are not synonyms, but someone who inflicts strange effects on others could be described by either term. Connotations are more important than you think. Because of connotations, roles called names such as Robber, Genius, Destroyer, Hero, etc, are unlikely to be added to the game.

"Skill and luck are bound to intercept each other, and thus the two cannot coexist in harmony."

-Tigerleap


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FAQ

Spoiler: FAQ:
Why am I called Tigerleap? - It's my Warrior Cat name!
What is my favorite role? - The Lookout is the most fun role for me to play as.
What is my least favorite role? - The Pirate; it's absolutely cancer and we must get rid of it.
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Re: The Coven Update's Hits and Misses

Postby Tigerleap » Fri May 19, 2017 3:19 pm

If you've voted on the polls, I would greatly appreciate it if you made a reply explaining why. I personally only chose two roles--Tracker and Ambusher--as good roles, though I may add the Trapper soon once I see him in action a bit more.

Speaking of votes, it seems like there are people voting for all 10 roles. I know that different people have different opinions, but it doesn't take a genius to figure out there's at least one bad role among these. Would anyone care to explain why the Hypnotist--which everyone seems to hate--is one of the top roles? I do agree that Kirize's Drug Dealer is a good role idea, but I do not think that the Hypnotist in its current state is anywhere near as good as the original.

I, do, however, feel like I made my explanation for the Hypnotist too short, so I'm going to edit it to hopefully convince actual fans of the role that it isn't all that great.

PS: Make sure to keep up with my Notes under the spoiler! I will be updating those regularly over the next few days.

"Skill and luck are bound to intercept each other, and thus the two cannot coexist in harmony."

-Tigerleap


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FAQ

Spoiler: FAQ:
Why am I called Tigerleap? - It's my Warrior Cat name!
What is my favorite role? - The Lookout is the most fun role for me to play as.
What is my least favorite role? - The Pirate; it's absolutely cancer and we must get rid of it.
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Re: The Coven Update's Hits and Misses

Postby JazzMusicStops » Sat May 20, 2017 2:33 am

I really like Trapper

I feels like it adds a good dynamic to Town Protective
And you may say to yourself, "My God! What have I done?"

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