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Re: Lone Town Traitor needs to be able to kill

PostPosted: Tue May 19, 2020 12:22 pm
by Descender
why is everyone but MysticMismagius ignoring the very obvious solution
mafia tactical fixes it
mafia tactical fixes more than just it

Re: Lone Town Traitor needs to be able to kill

PostPosted: Tue May 19, 2020 12:30 pm
by MysticMismagius
I've been mentioning other solutions because TMK will take a while to implement (edit: if it gets implemented) and we need something for the meantime
Also TMK doesn't fix this on the Coven end

Re: Lone Town Traitor needs to be able to kill

PostPosted: Tue May 19, 2020 12:32 pm
by Descender
MysticMismagius wrote:I've been mentioning other solutions because TMK will take a while to implement and we need something for the meantime
Also TMK doesn't fix this on the Coven end

fair point
honestly in coven it should just have the ability to kill with the necronomicon, but it should be the last in line to get it

Re: Lone Town Traitor needs to be able to kill

PostPosted: Tue May 19, 2020 12:36 pm
by MysticMismagius
Google wrote:
MysticMismagius wrote:I've been mentioning other solutions because TMK will take a while to implement (if it gets implemented) and we need something for the meantime
Also TMK doesn't fix this on the Coven end
fair point
honestly in coven it should just have the ability to kill with the necronomicon, but it should be the last in line to get it
Honestly I would be down for that

Re: Lone Town Traitor needs to be able to kill

PostPosted: Tue May 19, 2020 3:08 pm
by Achilles
Adding secondary killing abilities onto every town role is going beyond the scope of what I wanted to do for this game mode. Maybe for some future improvement but that is just too much to try to squeeze in right at the finish line. I don't want this to sit on the PTR for another 3 weeks as we test every single town role and all of the new tech that would be needed for this. Promoting them into a Mafioso would be an easier solution but also not exactly ideal.

Re: Lone Town Traitor needs to be able to kill

PostPosted: Tue May 19, 2020 4:09 pm
by Brilliand
Achilles wrote:Promoting them into a Mafioso would be an easier solution but also not exactly ideal.


I'd say that this is acceptable if we can't think of anything else that works.

Here's another idea: A doomsday clock. The easy way to implement this would be "at the start of day 10, if the Traitor is still alive, evils automatically win", but I'd be worried about the Mafia using this as their goal from the start of D1. Instead, the doomsday clock could go "after X players have died [regardless of faction], the Town has Y days to lynch the Traitor, or evils automatically win". 8 and 3 seem like reasonable values for X and Y to me, but I'm just spitballing here.

Re: Lone Town Traitor needs to be able to kill

PostPosted: Tue May 19, 2020 4:15 pm
by Achilles
Brilliand wrote:
Achilles wrote:Promoting them into a Mafioso would be an easier solution but also not exactly ideal.


I'd say that this is acceptable if we can't think of anything else that works.

Here's another idea: A doomsday clock. The easy way to implement this would be "at the start of day 10, if the Traitor is still alive, evils automatically win", but I'd be worried about the Mafia using this as their goal from the start of D1. Instead, the doomsday clock could go "after X players have died [regardless of faction], the Town has Y days to lynch the Traitor, or evils automatically win". 8 and 3 seem like reasonable values for X and Y to me, but I'm just spitballing here.


Not a bad idea. The Town has X days to deduce who the Traitor is or they lose. Definitely something worth considering.

Re: Lone Town Traitor needs to be able to kill

PostPosted: Tue May 19, 2020 4:25 pm
by MysticMismagius
Achilles wrote:Adding secondary killing abilities onto every town role is going beyond the scope of what I wanted to do for this game mode. Maybe for some future improvement but that is just too much to try to squeeze in right at the finish line. I don't want this to sit on the PTR for another 3 weeks as we test every single town role and all of the new tech that would be needed for this. Promoting them into a Mafioso would be an easier solution but also not exactly ideal.
Fair enough, all these solutions we've come up with would take a while to implement.

Brilliand wrote:
Achilles wrote:Promoting them into a Mafioso would be an easier solution but also not exactly ideal.
I'd say that this is acceptable if we can't think of anything else that works.

Here's another idea: A doomsday clock. The easy way to implement this would be "at the start of day 10, if the Traitor is still alive, evils automatically win", but I'd be worried about the Mafia using this as their goal from the start of D1. Instead, the doomsday clock could go "after X players have died [regardless of faction], the Town has Y days to lynch the Traitor, or evils automatically win". 8 and 3 seem like reasonable values for X and Y to me, but I'm just spitballing here.
I really like the Perish Song vibes from this idea, hehe.
But rather then having the doomsday clock be on a specific day or after an arbitrary amount players have died, why not have it revolve around the issue at hand: the Traitor being the lone evil? Once the Traitor is alone, the Town has a certain amount of days to kill them or they lose. This would be especially fitting on the Coven end: the Traitor casts a doomsday spell out of desperation, you have three days to capture them before you all die...

Re: Lone Town Traitor needs to be able to kill

PostPosted: Tue May 19, 2020 4:29 pm
by Brilliand
MysticMismagius wrote:But rather then having the doomsday clock be on a specific day or after an arbitrary amount players have died, why not have it revolve around the issue at hand: the Traitor being the lone evil? Once the Traitor is alone, the Town has a certain amount of days to kill them or they lose. This would be especially fitting on the Coven end: the Traitor casts a doomsday spell out of desperation, you have three days to capture them before you all die...


I wouldn't want the Town to exploit this by leaving the last Mafia member alive (perhaps chainblocked or chainjailed) until they find the Traitor.

Re: Lone Town Traitor needs to be able to kill

PostPosted: Tue May 19, 2020 4:34 pm
by MysticMismagius
Brilliand wrote:
MysticMismagius wrote:But rather then having the doomsday clock be on a specific day or after an arbitrary amount players have died, why not have it revolve around the issue at hand: the Traitor being the lone evil? Once the Traitor is alone, the Town has a certain amount of days to kill them or they lose. This would be especially fitting on the Coven end: the Traitor casts a doomsday spell out of desperation, you have three days to capture them before you all die...
I wouldn't want the Town to exploit this by leaving the last Mafia member alive (perhaps chainblocked or chainjailed) until they find the Traitor.
The town could and does exploit this with two Mafia/Coven anyways

This is more of a problem with chainblocking/jailing being massively exploitable in general than it is a problem with this suggestion

Re: Lone Town Traitor needs to be able to kill

PostPosted: Tue May 19, 2020 4:39 pm
by Brilliand
MysticMismagius wrote:The town could and does exploit this with two Mafia/Coven anyways

This is more of a problem with chainblocking/jailing being massively exploitable in general than it is a problem with this suggestion


Fair.

It isn't quite to my taste to have the doomsday clock start on a trigger that the Town can control, but I can see the theme advantages, and it would solve the problem at hand.

Re: Lone Town Traitor needs to be able to kill

PostPosted: Tue May 19, 2020 4:44 pm
by Robbytherobot
That doomsday idea sounds SO FUN! Kind of like when pb turns into pest, sounds more simple for programing while also making the game really intense with witch hunts and all, JUST LIKE THE REAL TOWN OF SALEM.

Re: Lone Town Traitor needs to be able to kill

PostPosted: Tue May 19, 2020 6:42 pm
by thezipper100
They definitely need to become, like, a mafioso or something once they're the last one, otherwise they just lose.

Re: Lone Town Traitor needs to be able to kill

PostPosted: Wed May 20, 2020 5:39 pm
by Achilles
After a night of thinking on it, I really liked the idea of having a 3 day doomsday countdown where the town must find/kill the Traitor or lose. We are putting those changes on the PTR now. Specially thank you to Brilliand for the suggestion.

Re: Lone Town Traitor needs to be able to kill

PostPosted: Fri May 22, 2020 7:51 am
by Descender
Achilles wrote:After a night of thinking on it, I really liked the idea of having a 3 day doomsday countdown where the town must find/kill the Traitor or lose. We are putting those changes on the PTR now. Specially thank you to Brilliand for the suggestion.

oh
oh no
im getting bomber vibes now

Re: Lone Town Traitor needs to be able to kill

PostPosted: Tue Jun 02, 2020 4:40 pm
by Brilliand
Revisiting this...

It turns out the big problem with the current system isn't the Town being able to control when the countdown starts, but the Mafia/Coven being able to control when the countdown starts. The current Town Traitor meta is evolving toward the Mafia trying to get themselves killed off as fast as possible, and the Town trying to hold back that process and ensure that some townies die too.

I propose that the doomsday clock be changed to the version I originally proposed, that is, the countdown begins after a specific number of players die regardless of faction. That way, each faction will be encouraged to kill off the other faction, so as to have more control over the vote when the Traitor's countdown starts.

Starting the countdown at 9 players dead would give the Town a 50/50 chance of finding the Traitor if the countdown happens to start when the Traitor becomes the last evil standing, if the Town lynches randomly from that point on. On the other hand, if the game is 4v2 at that point, the Traitor countdown pretty closely matches the amount of time the Town has left before the Mafia wins by killing.

Re: Lone Town Traitor needs to be able to kill

PostPosted: Tue Jun 02, 2020 6:30 pm
by Descender
Brilliand wrote:Revisiting this...

It turns out the big problem with the current system isn't the Town being able to control when the countdown starts, but the Mafia/Coven being able to control when the countdown starts. The current Town Traitor meta is evolving toward the Mafia trying to get themselves killed off as fast as possible, and the Town trying to hold back that process and ensure that some townies die too.

I propose that the doomsday clock be changed to the version I originally proposed, that is, the countdown begins after a specific number of players die regardless of faction. That way, each faction will be encouraged to kill off the other faction, so as to have more control over the vote when the Traitor's countdown starts.

Starting the countdown at 9 players dead would give the Town a 50/50 chance of finding the Traitor if the countdown happens to start when the Traitor becomes the last evil standing, if the Town lynches randomly from that point on. On the other hand, if the game is 4v2 at that point, the Traitor countdown pretty closely matches the amount of time the Town has left before the Mafia wins by killing.

This is good.
This is also delaying TMK
Id rather go with this for a while for a tmk update than a bunch of little fixes