Lone Town Traitor needs to be able to kill

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Lone Town Traitor needs to be able to kill

Postby Robbytherobot » Sat May 16, 2020 1:41 pm

We had a game go to 12 days and end in a draw because of a jailor who could not kill and everyone having confirmed abilities. Town traitor as lone scum NEEDS to be able to kill, perhaps every even night, or maybe once every 3 days. It would be cool if these attacks could be independent of their night roles, thus allowing them to stay confirmed while also keeping the fun part of the witch hunt going. Witch hunts are fun untill it the game drags on for 6 days... Though I think jailor should only be able to do this if they can no longer exe.
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Re: Lone Town Traitor needs to be able to kill

Postby emslaya » Sat May 16, 2020 7:00 pm

Definitely agree. Town Traitor is often the last evil left alive in TT games and this puts certain TT's in near-impossible win scenarios depending on what TT's role is.

I think allowing TT to kill every other night might be a winning solution, or perhaps almost making it like a HM-type situation where the lone TT can 'mark' all living townies to win the game as well? idk.
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Re: Lone Town Traitor needs to be able to kill

Postby MysticMismagius » Sat May 16, 2020 7:12 pm

I'm gonna add my name to the list of people who completely agree with this
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Re: Lone Town Traitor needs to be able to kill

Postby Fourteen » Sun May 17, 2020 4:21 pm

I agree that the games can become too lengthy, but I do not feel like this solution is worth it. First, it doesn't go with the concept of the traitor. Second, it would either make the traitor OP if you give them an astral attack, or ruin the game by making them detectable by town without scumreading.

It might be okay if the traitor gets one attack that they can use with or instead of their night ability to stop the many-day deliberations that happen with 3-4 players left.
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Re: Lone Town Traitor needs to be able to kill

Postby MysticMismagius » Sun May 17, 2020 4:34 pm

Idk why making Traitor able to kill would ruin the game?

One attack isn't enough, because oftentimes these endgames where Traitor is the only evil left occur when there are several townies left: I once had a game where there were 8 people left including the Traitor:

Ignoring the fact that this Traitor happened to be the Mayor, how would having only one attack stop the systematic lynching slog that this suggestion aims to prevent?
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Re: Lone Town Traitor needs to be able to kill

Postby Robbytherobot » Sun May 17, 2020 4:58 pm

Having an astral attack means that town HAS to scum read, thats part of the point of this gamemode, its way too hard for traitor to win if they are detectable, everyone is confirmed.
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Re: Lone Town Traitor needs to be able to kill

Postby MysticMismagius » Sun May 17, 2020 5:16 pm

So, you would want them to get an Astral attack?

Not really sold on it, since it would make Traitor almost better than GF on the Mafia end and it would seriously crimp HM's style on the Coven end.
Last edited by MysticMismagius on Mon May 18, 2020 12:03 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Lone Town Traitor needs to be able to kill

Postby Brilliand » Sun May 17, 2020 8:09 pm

Part of the problem here is that the Jailor is still confirmed good. Since a traitor Jailor would kill Townies early and often, practically guaranteeing a win for the Mafia, any Jailor who doesn't do that is confirmed not the Traitor. The Jailor can then lead the Town in the systematic lynching at the end.

If there are two Town roles alive that are confirmed not the Traitor, then that's game over if the last Mafia is lynched. Once the last Mafia is lynched, the Traitor's gameplan is to be the least suspicious Townie, and sometimes that isn't realistic. (But equally, it isn't realistic for a lone Mafioso to beat 8+ Townies.)

I do kind of want to give the Traitor a killing power, if only to justify why the Town would even need the Traitor to die; but I don't want it to be possible to use that killing power to find the Traitor (i.e. via Escort or Lookout), and I don't want the Traitor to be able to play completely Townie while the kills happen each night in the background.

Perhaps give the Traitor the ability to choose a lynch if the Town doesn't? "If a night and a day passes without a death, then in the final seconds of the day, the Traitor may choose a player to die instantly."
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Re: Lone Town Traitor needs to be able to kill

Postby MysticMismagius » Sun May 17, 2020 8:23 pm

Brilliand wrote:Part of the problem here is that the Jailor is still confirmed good. Since a traitor Jailor would kill Townies early and often, practically guaranteeing a win for the Mafia, any Jailor who doesn't do that is confirmed not the Traitor. The Jailor can then lead the Town in the systematic lynching at the end. Hence, the Traitor ought to have a way to kill the Jailor and other more "confirmed" townies than them

If there are two Town roles alive that are confirmed not the Traitor, then that's game over if the last Mafia is lynched. Among many, many other problems... Once the last Mafia is lynched, the Traitor's gameplan is to be the least suspicious Townie, and sometimes that isn't realistic. (But equally, it isn't realistic for a lone Mafioso to beat 8+ Townies.) Not realistic, maybe, but possible. NKs win sometimes, as do solo Mafia/Coven members. The issue with lone Town Traitor is less that it's really hard to win and more that it can't win, so this is still an improvement.

I do kind of want to give the Traitor a killing power, if only to justify why the Town would even need the Traitor to die; but I don't want it to be possible to use that killing power to find the Traitor (i.e. via Escort or Lookout), and I don't want the Traitor to be able to play completely Townie while the kills happen each night in the background. Well, you gotta pick one, because those two things are mutually exclusive. Either the Traitor can blend seamlessly into the background while killing off Townies, or it can't.

Perhaps give the Traitor the ability to choose a lynch if the Town doesn't? "If a night and a day passes without a death, then in the final seconds of the day, the Traitor may choose a player to die instantly." This just forces that systematic lynching, because Town gains control of who dies by lynching someone every day. Also, I really don't like the idea of someone being killed during the day by any manner besides lynching.
Edit: on Mafia's side this would be really damned easy if only TMK were implemented, as the Traitor would just be able to perform the factional Mafia kill like anyone else. But on the Coven side it'd be a bit harder to figure out the exact manner in which the Traitor should gain its killing ability.
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Re: Lone Town Traitor needs to be able to kill

Postby Brilliand » Sun May 17, 2020 10:40 pm

MysticMismagius wrote:Well, you gotta pick one, because those two things are mutually exclusive. Either the Traitor can blend seamlessly into the background while killing off Townies, or it can't.


I see two outs to this: either make sure the Traitor has some motive about who to kill, so that the choice of kills can give hints as to who is doing the choosing; or make the Traitor's killing power so limited that they still have to rely heavily on causing mislynches (so the Town has a shot at seeing who is actively directing lynches to the wrong targets).

MysticMismagius wrote:This just forces that systematic lynching, because Town gains control of who dies by lynching someone every day.


That's still an improvement. No more multi-day deliberations.

MysticMismagius wrote:Also, I really don't like the idea of someone being killed during the day by any manner besides lynching.


Fair. That aspect is probably fixable, but I'll not try to fix it right now.
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Re: Lone Town Traitor needs to be able to kill

Postby MysticMismagius » Sun May 17, 2020 10:56 pm

Brilliand wrote:
MysticMismagius wrote:Well, you gotta pick one, because those two things are mutually exclusive. Either the Traitor can blend seamlessly into the background while killing off Townies, or it can't.
I see two outs to this: either make sure the Traitor has some motive about who to kill, so that the choice of kills can give hints as to who is doing the choosing; or make the Traitor's killing power so limited that they still have to rely heavily on causing mislynches (so the Town has a shot at seeing who is actively directing lynches to the wrong targets).
Well the Traitor already has a motive about who to kill them: anyone who would be less likely to be lynched than them, and anyone who has the potential to figure out who they are: same as a solo Mafioso.

Brilliand wrote:
MysticMismagius wrote:This just forces that systematic lynching, because Town gains control of who dies by lynching someone every day.
That's still an improvement. No more multi-day deliberations.
No it's not. The problem with Town Traitor being alone is that the game just turns into Town systematically lynching people with no stakes until the Traitor inevitably dies because they can't really do much to Town at this stage and Town has all the control. If you don't like our solution, that's fine, but any counter-solution you come up with has to actually fix the problem. Giving the Traitor the option to kill only if there is a no-lynch does not do this, because Town can very easily just lynch every day and keep all the control. All it does is mask the slog by making it faster.
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Re: Lone Town Traitor needs to be able to kill

Postby Descender » Mon May 18, 2020 3:37 am

lone traitor needs 1 standard kill per night or something less, maybe one kill every 2 nights with its ability inbetween, but id go with the first one
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Re: Lone Town Traitor needs to be able to kill

Postby Cressycandycat » Mon May 18, 2020 1:48 pm

I second this, for both classic and coven modes.

Having a game go by for 18 nights (Yes, this did happen) because of a traitor sheriff hidden in 7 other towns is ridiculous and drains the fun out of the game really quickly. It becomes a guessing game that neither the town or the traitor wants to keep up.

My idea is this, although I've seen some others.

1. Traitor ONLY gets to attack if all other mafia/coven has died.
2. Traitor gets 2-3 basic attacks. (So you will still have to plan wisely and try to get other townies killed to survive until the end.)
3. So basically a limited mafioso still with the town powers. Perhaps you could get the message of something like "You picked up the mafioso's gun to defend yourself against the town, but there's only X amount of bullets left."
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Re: Lone Town Traitor needs to be able to kill

Postby Robbytherobot » Mon May 18, 2020 1:57 pm

Thats a great idea, having those attacks be astral would be fun for both town and for coven/mafia and really emphasise that they are an evil among them who must be rooted out by seeing how they have acted before.
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Re: Lone Town Traitor needs to be able to kill

Postby Descender » Mon May 18, 2020 4:03 pm

*cough* mafia tactical
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Re: Lone Town Traitor needs to be able to kill

Postby Achilles » Mon May 18, 2020 6:15 pm

I have added a stalemate detector for the TT being the last one alive. If the TT is a Jailor with executions, a Vigilante with bullets or a Veteran with alerts the game will not end. For every other TT role the game will end when they are the last evil left alive.

Potentially a Mayor TT or Crusader TT may not want the game to end. Open to thoughts on that.
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Re: Lone Town Traitor needs to be able to kill

Postby Robbytherobot » Mon May 18, 2020 6:31 pm

Crus and Mayor should not end game
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Re: Lone Town Traitor needs to be able to kill

Postby MysticMismagius » Mon May 18, 2020 6:41 pm

Ending the game with some roles and not others just outs the fact that the Traitor is TK (or Crusader, or Mayor)

I didn't want to suggest a stalemate detector in part because of this, but also because it means you can pretty much ignore the traitor in most instances now, as the game will just end if you kill the Mafia as normal
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Re: Lone Town Traitor needs to be able to kill

Postby Brilliand » Mon May 18, 2020 10:25 pm

For some reason I imagine a weak "traitor" role doing its killing with poison. I'd rather have the Traitor get an infrequent-use hard-to-intercept "poison" kill than pick up where the Mafioso left off.

...though if it's done my way, then having the "traitor" killing start when the mafia dies out doesn't make sense; the Traitor would have to get different reasons not to use it instead (such as "the Traitor attack can't be used the night after, or on the same night as, any other night kill occurs").

----

And yeah, MysticMismagius is right about the stalemate detector. Anything that automatically ends the game should do it in the same way regardless of which role is the Traitor.

Though to be honest I doubt it will come up much... a traitor Jailor/Vig (and even Vet sort of) has every reason to use all its bullets before the Mafia dies out. (Mayor and Crusader are a different story, though.)

Hmm... what if instead of ending the game based on whether the Traitor is something capable of killing townies, it ends the game based on whether a role capable of killing townies (or a Mayor) exists at all? That way it doesn't tell the Town anything about which role is the Traitor.
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Re: Lone Town Traitor needs to be able to kill

Postby MysticMismagius » Mon May 18, 2020 11:19 pm

Brilliand wrote:For some reason I imagine a weak "traitor" role doing its killing with poison. I'd rather have the Traitor get an infrequent-use hard-to-intercept "poison" kill than pick up where the Mafioso left off. The Coven fangirl in me is absolutely screaming right now, because I hate Poisoner and I don't want to see its ugly delayed kill shenanigans on anything else

...though if it's done my way, then having the "traitor" killing start when the mafia dies out doesn't make sense; the Traitor would have to get different reasons not to use it instead (such as "the Traitor attack can't be used the night after, or on the same night as, any other night kill occurs"). Isn't having to kill with poison enough of a detriment? Why make it worse by only allowing the Traitor to use its attack every three nights?

----

And yeah, MysticMismagius is right about the stalemate detector. Anything that automatically ends the game should do it in the same way regardless of which role is the Traitor.

Though to be honest I doubt it will come up much... a traitor Jailor/Vig (and even Vet sort of) has every reason to use all its bullets before the Mafia dies out. (Mayor and Crusader are a different story, though.)

Hmm... what if instead of ending the game based on whether the Traitor is something capable of killing townies, it ends the game based on whether a role capable of killing townies (or a Mayor) exists at all? That way it doesn't tell the Town anything about which role is the Traitor. This doesn't change anything because the response from Town is still the same: lynch all the TK, any Crusaders, and the Mayor to end the game with a Town win.
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Re: Lone Town Traitor needs to be able to kill

Postby Descender » Tue May 19, 2020 5:44 am

Achilles wrote:I have added a stalemate detector for the TT being the last one alive. If the TT is a Jailor with executions, a Vigilante with bullets or a Veteran with alerts the game will not end. For every other TT role the game will end when they are the last evil left alive.

Potentially a Mayor TT or Crusader TT may not want the game to end. Open to thoughts on that.

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Re: Lone Town Traitor needs to be able to kill

Postby Robbytherobot » Tue May 19, 2020 7:53 am

I also don't like the stalemate detector, the suggestion above for Poison would be really fun to play, while giving town alot of time to figure out who is the traitor among them. Everyone Ive talked to in the game wants some form of killing and does not like the stalematedetector.
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Re: Lone Town Traitor needs to be able to kill

Postby Brilliand » Tue May 19, 2020 11:04 am

MysticMismagius wrote:
Brilliand wrote:...though if it's done my way, then having the "traitor" killing start when the mafia dies out doesn't make sense; the Traitor would have to get different reasons not to use it instead (such as "the Traitor attack can't be used the night after, or on the same night as, any other night kill occurs"). Isn't having to kill with poison enough of a detriment? Why make it worse by only allowing the Traitor to use its attack every three nights?


I definitely don't want the Traitor to kill every night, because I still want the Traitor to have a high reliance on mislynches. Also, I'd like for this poison to be harder to detect than the Poisoner's poison, by being Astral+Unstoppable and giving no notification the night it's applied. That said, every 2 nights might be enough of a nerf.

MysticMismagius wrote:
Brilliand wrote:Hmm... what if instead of ending the game based on whether the Traitor is something capable of killing townies, it ends the game based on whether a role capable of killing townies (or a Mayor) exists at all? That way it doesn't tell the Town anything about which role is the Traitor. This doesn't change anything because the response from Town is still the same: lynch all the TK, any Crusaders, and the Mayor to end the game with a Town win.


That response isn't good enough if there are only 2 players who don't need to be lynched, because one of those 2 players might be the traitor.

So it's something; probably not good enough though.
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Re: Lone Town Traitor needs to be able to kill

Postby MysticMismagius » Tue May 19, 2020 11:41 am

Brilliand wrote:
MysticMismagius wrote:
Brilliand wrote:...though if it's done my way, then having the "traitor" killing start when the mafia dies out doesn't make sense; the Traitor would have to get different reasons not to use it instead (such as "the Traitor attack can't be used the night after, or on the same night as, any other night kill occurs").
Isn't having to kill with poison enough of a detriment? Why make it worse by only allowing the Traitor to use its attack every three nights?
I definitely don't want the Traitor to kill every night, because I still want the Traitor to have a high reliance on mislynches. Also, I'd like for this poison to be harder to detect than the Poisoner's poison, by being Astral+Unstoppable and giving no notification the night it's applied. That said, every 2 nights might be enough of a nerf.
I still don't see why you need poison delay on top of the delay caused by not being able to kill every night. If there must be a delay (which frankly I don't think there must be), a single attack every full moon night is plenty, especially for someone who is flying solo by the time they get the ability to kill.

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Brilliand wrote:
MysticMismagius wrote:
Brilliand wrote:Hmm... what if instead of ending the game based on whether the Traitor is something capable of killing townies, it ends the game based on whether a role capable of killing townies (or a Mayor) exists at all? That way it doesn't tell the Town anything about which role is the Traitor.
This doesn't change anything because the response from Town is still the same: lynch all the TK, any Crusaders, and the Mayor to end the game with a Town win.
That response isn't good enough if there are only 2 players who don't need to be lynched, because one of those 2 players might be the traitor.

So it's something; probably not good enough though.
If you math this scenario out, it's usually at least equally likely that the Traitor is among the TK/Crus/Mayor who would need to be lynched anyway as it is that the Traitor is one of those two people who wouldn't need to be lynched. Only scenario where that's not the case is when it's a 2v1. So even in the situation you describe, lynching all the TK/Crus/Mayor is still the best option unless you have a good case for why one of them is confirmed not-Traitor or why someone else is the Traitor.
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Re: Lone Town Traitor needs to be able to kill

Postby Robbytherobot » Tue May 19, 2020 12:14 pm

Yeah, now that I think about it a kill once every two days would be much better than the detector without being annoying.
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