Edit: on Mafia's side this would be really damned easy if only TMK were implemented, as the Traitor would just be able to perform the factional Mafia kill like anyone else. But on the Coven side it'd be a bit harder to figure out the exact manner in which the Traitor should gain its killing ability.Brilliand wrote:Part of the problem here is that the Jailor is still confirmed good. Since a traitor Jailor would kill Townies early and often, practically guaranteeing a win for the Mafia, any Jailor who doesn't do that is confirmed not the Traitor. The Jailor can then lead the Town in the systematic lynching at the end. Hence, the Traitor ought to have a way to kill the Jailor and other more "confirmed" townies than them
If there are two Town roles alive that are confirmed not the Traitor, then that's game over if the last Mafia is lynched. Among many, many other problems... Once the last Mafia is lynched, the Traitor's gameplan is to be the least suspicious Townie, and sometimes that isn't realistic. (But equally, it isn't realistic for a lone Mafioso to beat 8+ Townies.) Not realistic, maybe, but possible. NKs win sometimes, as do solo Mafia/Coven members. The issue with lone Town Traitor is less that it's really hard to win and more that it can't win, so this is still an improvement.
I do kind of want to give the Traitor a killing power, if only to justify why the Town would even need the Traitor to die; but I don't want it to be possible to use that killing power to find the Traitor (i.e. via Escort or Lookout), and I don't want the Traitor to be able to play completely Townie while the kills happen each night in the background. Well, you gotta pick one, because those two things are mutually exclusive. Either the Traitor can blend seamlessly into the background while killing off Townies, or it can't.
Perhaps give the Traitor the ability to choose a lynch if the Town doesn't? "If a night and a day passes without a death, then in the final seconds of the day, the Traitor may choose a player to die instantly." This just forces that systematic lynching, because Town gains control of who dies by lynching someone every day. Also, I really don't like the idea of someone being killed during the day by any manner besides lynching.
MysticMismagius wrote:Well, you gotta pick one, because those two things are mutually exclusive. Either the Traitor can blend seamlessly into the background while killing off Townies, or it can't.
MysticMismagius wrote:This just forces that systematic lynching, because Town gains control of who dies by lynching someone every day.
MysticMismagius wrote:Also, I really don't like the idea of someone being killed during the day by any manner besides lynching.
Well the Traitor already has a motive about who to kill them: anyone who would be less likely to be lynched than them, and anyone who has the potential to figure out who they are: same as a solo Mafioso.Brilliand wrote:I see two outs to this: either make sure the Traitor has some motive about who to kill, so that the choice of kills can give hints as to who is doing the choosing; or make the Traitor's killing power so limited that they still have to rely heavily on causing mislynches (so the Town has a shot at seeing who is actively directing lynches to the wrong targets).MysticMismagius wrote:Well, you gotta pick one, because those two things are mutually exclusive. Either the Traitor can blend seamlessly into the background while killing off Townies, or it can't.
No it's not. The problem with Town Traitor being alone is that the game just turns into Town systematically lynching people with no stakes until the Traitor inevitably dies because they can't really do much to Town at this stage and Town has all the control. If you don't like our solution, that's fine, but any counter-solution you come up with has to actually fix the problem. Giving the Traitor the option to kill only if there is a no-lynch does not do this, because Town can very easily just lynch every day and keep all the control. All it does is mask the slog by making it faster.Brilliand wrote:That's still an improvement. No more multi-day deliberations.MysticMismagius wrote:This just forces that systematic lynching, because Town gains control of who dies by lynching someone every day.
Brilliand wrote:For some reason I imagine a weak "traitor" role doing its killing with poison. I'd rather have the Traitor get an infrequent-use hard-to-intercept "poison" kill than pick up where the Mafioso left off. The Coven fangirl in me is absolutely screaming right now, because I hate Poisoner and I don't want to see its ugly delayed kill shenanigans on anything else
...though if it's done my way, then having the "traitor" killing start when the mafia dies out doesn't make sense; the Traitor would have to get different reasons not to use it instead (such as "the Traitor attack can't be used the night after, or on the same night as, any other night kill occurs"). Isn't having to kill with poison enough of a detriment? Why make it worse by only allowing the Traitor to use its attack every three nights?
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And yeah, MysticMismagius is right about the stalemate detector. Anything that automatically ends the game should do it in the same way regardless of which role is the Traitor.
Though to be honest I doubt it will come up much... a traitor Jailor/Vig (and even Vet sort of) has every reason to use all its bullets before the Mafia dies out. (Mayor and Crusader are a different story, though.)
Hmm... what if instead of ending the game based on whether the Traitor is something capable of killing townies, it ends the game based on whether a role capable of killing townies (or a Mayor) exists at all? That way it doesn't tell the Town anything about which role is the Traitor. This doesn't change anything because the response from Town is still the same: lynch all the TK, any Crusaders, and the Mayor to end the game with a Town win.
Achilles wrote:I have added a stalemate detector for the TT being the last one alive. If the TT is a Jailor with executions, a Vigilante with bullets or a Veteran with alerts the game will not end. For every other TT role the game will end when they are the last evil left alive.
Potentially a Mayor TT or Crusader TT may not want the game to end. Open to thoughts on that.
MysticMismagius wrote:Brilliand wrote:...though if it's done my way, then having the "traitor" killing start when the mafia dies out doesn't make sense; the Traitor would have to get different reasons not to use it instead (such as "the Traitor attack can't be used the night after, or on the same night as, any other night kill occurs"). Isn't having to kill with poison enough of a detriment? Why make it worse by only allowing the Traitor to use its attack every three nights?
I definitely don't want the Traitor to kill every night, because I still want the Traitor to have a high reliance on mislynches. Also, I'd like for this poison to be harder to detect than the Poisoner's poison, by being Astral+Unstoppable and giving no notification the night it's applied. That said, every 2 nights might be enough of a nerf.MysticMismagius wrote:Brilliand wrote:Hmm... what if instead of ending the game based on whether the Traitor is something capable of killing townies, it ends the game based on whether a role capable of killing townies (or a Mayor) exists at all? That way it doesn't tell the Town anything about which role is the Traitor. This doesn't change anything because the response from Town is still the same: lynch all the TK, any Crusaders, and the Mayor to end the game with a Town win.
I still don't see why you need poison delay on top of the delay caused by not being able to kill every night. If there must be a delay (which frankly I don't think there must be), a single attack every full moon night is plenty, especially for someone who is flying solo by the time they get the ability to kill.Brilliand wrote:I definitely don't want the Traitor to kill every night, because I still want the Traitor to have a high reliance on mislynches. Also, I'd like for this poison to be harder to detect than the Poisoner's poison, by being Astral+Unstoppable and giving no notification the night it's applied. That said, every 2 nights might be enough of a nerf.MysticMismagius wrote:Isn't having to kill with poison enough of a detriment? Why make it worse by only allowing the Traitor to use its attack every three nights?Brilliand wrote:...though if it's done my way, then having the "traitor" killing start when the mafia dies out doesn't make sense; the Traitor would have to get different reasons not to use it instead (such as "the Traitor attack can't be used the night after, or on the same night as, any other night kill occurs").
Google wrote:*cough* Mafia Tactical
If you math this scenario out, it's usually at least equally likely that the Traitor is among the TK/Crus/Mayor who would need to be lynched anyway as it is that the Traitor is one of those two people who wouldn't need to be lynched. Only scenario where that's not the case is when it's a 2v1. So even in the situation you describe, lynching all the TK/Crus/Mayor is still the best option unless you have a good case for why one of them is confirmed not-Traitor or why someone else is the Traitor.Brilliand wrote:That response isn't good enough if there are only 2 players who don't need to be lynched, because one of those 2 players might be the traitor.MysticMismagius wrote:This doesn't change anything because the response from Town is still the same: lynch all the TK, any Crusaders, and the Mayor to end the game with a Town win.Brilliand wrote:Hmm... what if instead of ending the game based on whether the Traitor is something capable of killing townies, it ends the game based on whether a role capable of killing townies (or a Mayor) exists at all? That way it doesn't tell the Town anything about which role is the Traitor.
So it's something; probably not good enough though.
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