TT First Impressions & Feedback

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TT First Impressions & Feedback

Postby Kawakaze » Fri May 15, 2020 9:52 am

I've only played a few games so far, but here are some initial impressions:

    + Fun and intersting, good to see the Traitor/Turncoat concept in ToS, it puts a nice twist on the game.

    - Games are extremely reliant on Traitor's role.
The enjoyment of each round is heavily dependent on what role the traitor is; having a Jailor, Mayor, Vig, or Transporter Traitor makes the game far more interesting due to their power, most TI roles and Escort are similar (if not worse) versions of their Mafia counterparts, and roles like Medium are downright useless (aside from their vote), resulting in extremely inconsistent games.
One solution could be to limit what roles Traitor can be, but the same time, fixing this issue seems like a difficult balancing act – if potential Traitor roles are limited, then it becomes very easy to confirm a lot of roles, which can defeat the purpose of having a Traitor in the first place if it becomes too easy to identify the Traitor.
An idea that I saw being tossed around was to remove a scum role (Mafioso in Classic, RC in Coven) and add in a second traitor, with each traitor being restricted to a set of roles to ensure that scum gets one powerful traitor and one less powerful traitor... but this, again, seems like a slippery slope, not only due to the fact that the Traitor(s) would become easier to identify, but removing scum members would also worsen the below issue...

    - When all scum (Mafia/Coven) are lynched except the Traitor, games can drag on pointlessly long.
Once all scum members except the Traitor have been killed, it comes down to a situation where Town systematically lynches until the game ends, which can take excruciatingly long. At the same time, it's not quite fair to immediately award the win to Town in these cases, since the last Traitor can be a killing role, or the number of Town members are close enough that one (or two) mislynches can result in a deadlock (1v1), which should result in a scum victory.
The two solutions that I came up with are as follows:
1) Give the traitor the ability to carry out scum factional kills instead of their regular night ability when all scum members are dead. A similar solution would be to promote them into a Mafioso (or equivalent in Coven), but I'd prefer this iteration of giving them the ability to kill, as it allows them to blend in better as a Townie, which is the point of this gamemode. Regardless of what form, giving Traitors the ability to kill once all scum are dead would keep the game moving. Furthermore, this would also give some power to weaker Traitor roles as well, since they would gain some utility outside of just their vote.
2) If there are more than 3 non-Traitor Townies left (with Witch dead, in the case of Classic TT), immediately end the game in Town's victory. As mentioned above, there are cases where the game shouldn't end, since a few mislynches can result in a scum victory, but realistically speaking, if there's more than 3 Townies left, it's going to take more than "a few" mislynches, and the game should just end there.

    - (Unity client issue) Pulling up chatlog lags the game
This is more of a client issue, than an issue with the gamemode itself... but the game lags heavily when pulling up the chatlog, especially on later nights.

One last thing that I wanted to mention is that most players on the PTR are very familiar with the game, and utilize optimal strategies to find scum. As a result, it becomes very difficult for scum to have reasonable claims due to the somewhat restricted claimspace, making it very difficult for scum to win without a powerful traitor who know what they are doing. When this gamemode is released in the live servers, however, players are likely to be a lot more casual (especially in Classic TT), which is likely to shift the balance of this gamemode. TT is a gamemode with a high skill ceiling, and with the Traitor’s role being random, it seems that balancing TT will be a difficult issue (which is arguably fine, given that it will join the rotation of “Chaos” gamemodes which don’t necessarily need to be completely balanced). Thus, I don’t want to mention too much about balance for the time being, but providing scum a little bit more claimspace would be helpful.

Anyways, I’m having fun so far, looking forward to when this is added to live servers! Will update/post again once I have more things to add.
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Re: TT First Impressions & Feedback

Postby leveria » Fri May 15, 2020 1:00 pm

I disagree. Medium is not "downright useless" - it's funny you said that because I was medium TT and CL said same thing to me. Eventually we won and his mind started to change.

Medium is extremely powerful as it can bring "words" from dead. It can be anything! "jailor told x he is traitor when he executed him", "Sheriff says his last investigation results in "sus"", "the stoned/cleaned role is XYZ"

please don't insult mediums.
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Re: TT First Impressions & Feedback

Postby Kawakaze » Sat May 16, 2020 1:40 am

Perhaps it's not fair to call roles "useless", since there'll always be that one circumstance/situation in which it'll be useful. However, it is undeniable that some roles are less powerful than others, which doesn't change the fact that games are typically extremely reliant on the Traitor's role.

Ultimately, any role can be incredibly powerful in the right circumstance – as you described, Medium can bring misleading information from the dead. With that said, everything, from faking the Sheriff's results, to Jailor saying x things, to stoned/cleaned role is entirely situational. By that argument, any role is "incredibly strong", and again, they have the potential to be in the correct circumstance. At the same time, the "weaker" roles are far less consistent at making an impact in the game – for instance, in the Medium example, all of this falls apart the moment there's a second Medium (dead or alive, due to seance) or Ret (if they still have their revive) in the game, or if the Townies being accused are already semi-confirmed. And this makes sense, given that ToS practically revolves around various circumstances and a player's ability to make the most of said circumstances.

In the end, it boils down to a matter of consistency – will a Traitor with xx role have a major impact on the game consistently? Traitor Mediums (and TI) can often force a mislynch via misleading information, but often at the cost of losing their own lives, as most players in the PTR are intelligent enough to determine scummy accusations; and this is far less useful (and less consistent) than the ability to carry out extra nightkills, controlling majority vote, or removing protection from key Townies. Perhaps the real power of said roles is the fact that they're much more difficult to detect than powerful Traitor roles... but in the end, they are also less likely to have a major impact on the game.

So while the term "useless" may be a little strong, I do not believe I am incorrect in saying that Medium is a comparatively useless role for Traitors – they are far too inconsistent in their ability to make a major impact. Of course, you can argue that mislynching a powerful role in exchange for the traitor can have a major impact; and while that's true, that's not something that's particularly special to Traitor Mediums, given that practically any Traitor can do so given the right circumstances.
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Re: TT First Impressions & Feedback

Postby Robbytherobot » Sat May 16, 2020 8:23 am

I agree traitors need to be able to kill when all of the scum are dead, it allows the end game to be more fun and less draggy while also making traitor not seem useless but a true evil part of mafia.
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Re: TT First Impressions & Feedback

Postby DocExer » Wed May 20, 2020 11:13 am

@Kawakaze, the upcoming Beta 5 release will contain some additional enhancements to the performance of the chat log, as well as slowing down the speed of the scrolling which some have reported is too fast. Thanks for reporting your issues with this. Happy hanging!
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Re: TT First Impressions & Feedback

Postby leveria » Wed May 27, 2020 10:32 am

Kawakaze wrote:Perhaps it's not fair to call roles "useless", since there'll always be that one circumstance/situation in which it'll be useful. However, it is undeniable that some roles are less powerful than others, which doesn't change the fact that games are typically extremely reliant on the Traitor's role.

Ultimately, any role can be incredibly powerful in the right circumstance – as you described, Medium can bring misleading information from the dead. With that said, everything, from faking the Sheriff's results, to Jailor saying x things, to stoned/cleaned role is entirely situational. By that argument, any role is "incredibly strong", and again, they have the potential to be in the correct circumstance. At the same time, the "weaker" roles are far less consistent at making an impact in the game – for instance, in the Medium example, all of this falls apart the moment there's a second Medium (dead or alive, due to seance) or Ret (if they still have their revive) in the game, or if the Townies being accused are already semi-confirmed. And this makes sense, given that ToS practically revolves around various circumstances and a player's ability to make the most of said circumstances.

In the end, it boils down to a matter of consistency – will a Traitor with xx role have a major impact on the game consistently? Traitor Mediums (and TI) can often force a mislynch via misleading information, but often at the cost of losing their own lives, as most players in the PTR are intelligent enough to determine scummy accusations; and this is far less useful (and less consistent) than the ability to carry out extra nightkills, controlling majority vote, or removing protection from key Townies. Perhaps the real power of said roles is the fact that they're much more difficult to detect than powerful Traitor roles... but in the end, they are also less likely to have a major impact on the game.

So while the term "useless" may be a little strong, I do not believe I am incorrect in saying that Medium is a comparatively useless role for Traitors – they are far too inconsistent in their ability to make a major impact. Of course, you can argue that mislynching a powerful role in exchange for the traitor can have a major impact; and while that's true, that's not something that's particularly special to Traitor Mediums, given that practically any Traitor can do so given the right circumstances.


I honestly disagree, what makes you think medium is so useless just because they can't "kill".....

1) medium traitor has the advantage when checked to be inno, or shows result of medium
2) medium traitor help shape the game, they can say the stoned/cleaned roles are doctor, when they are sheriff etc..
3) medium traitor can bring evidence from death chat, from townies against townies (you pick and select what to post right?)
4) medium traitor can change results of dead chat when reporting back
5) medium traitor can act as if there are 2 mediums, confirming another mafia with them.. when someone is "revived", they'll confirm the existance of 2 mediums and mafia will be off the hook

i mean lots of things could happen lol... i dont get you though

Also, PTR community might be smarter than average - althought not wow.. but you'll play this with common regular players, im sure you can pull many tricks off lol.. I once had real medium confirming the existance of 3 mediums, me, him and imaginary janitor as medium!

Besides, given right circumstances apply to everyone.. including vig. what if invest found vig n1? can u shoot as usual? or will u die after ur first or second shot? what if all mafia dead - do you think traitor mayor will stay alive? isn't that obvious to kill mayor first after mafia are down whether they are traitor or not? or is traitor mayor still at advantage here? it's all circumstances.. Having "better role that medium" doesn't mean you have higher chance of winning, it also could mean you have higher chance of losing - of course, depends on the cirumstances.
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