Re: Patch Notes

[ICECLIMBERS]

Discuss them here.

Botanist, Traitor- Voted roles, other threads are already for discussing them.
Tracker- I will always maintain that this is not a healthy role for our games but if people want to use this role in their bad games they can feel free to.
Parity Cop- whatever
Strongman- ok now we've begun the descent into crazy
making this mafia support is bad bad bad bad bad bad bad
overpowered as is, doesn't really need to be in mafia head, only game where it's been run was a matrix game that was balanced around it's presence
but you have to be certifiably insane to make this mafia support; that's like making Godfather mafia deception or 2-shot daycop supersensor town citizen

Veteran- This change was clearly not thought through?
"Oh but Ice, veteran is a strong role." Yes it is, but not for the reasons that people think. It can blast scum who visit it. But when was the last standard where Veteran shot anybody? 12B, which was hosted in May 2017. Yes, it's been a year. I know that technically a veteran shot somembody in 12H but that person was instructed to visit the vet for PoE purposes. Veteran is strong because it'll be uncounterclaimed. That's it. A good player can use it to kill scum, but that situation hasn't arose in recent memory. Usually a completely lackluster player gets Veteran and goes from a potential suspect to confirmed town. These lackluster players never get visited. They're not the type to be investigated, protectives have way better targets, and mafia have no reason to visit them. And, to be frank, if the only reason why mafia are targetting you is because you're confirmed town, then you're not a threat to them anyways. A claimed veteran is like a claimed vig with no bullets. There's better targets out there.
So why is this change so awful? Imagine you shoot mafia N1 as a veteran. Great, now the mafia will kill you N2 since you're vulnerable on that night only. So, you have to claim veteran and request protection. Now any other anti-town role will know to never visit you. This change completely neuters a veteran that plays well. We should not punish players for good play.
Transporter- I don't think I need to explain why notificationless transports would be a mess. I'm not touching nonconsecutive since that's a feckless addition. Better suggestion: don't run transporter in episodes anymore. I know that most people here weren't around when the CL/MC/SP distinction was made, but there was an important detail in it. Transporter was deemed to be explicitly not SP. Those types of games shouldn't' have it; I have no idea why it would still remain in episodes. Swap it out for Trauma Patient. Transporter in its current state is fine for CL games and other more casual setups. There's no need to use the testing grounds version.
Marshal- Congratulations, you've taken the least powerful town protective role and made it the most powerful one. Now even with a roleblocker mafia can't easily break past a protective to kill another player. Just remove self heal and self vest if you want to balance them out.

Lookout- At the very least make this overhauls into new role names to distinguish them.
Lookout is a coinflip role. Either it finds very little, or it can find too much. If scum are constantly getting busted, either they're flat-out unlucky (10C) or they needed to not visit the obvious lookout target (almost every other game).
"Oh but Ice, lookout was strong in Episode 14!!" That's because scum were bad and should feel bad. They had a disguiser and didn't know how to use it.

Enforcer- I see Met made this. Role changing is already Capo's niche. It isn't needed. Maybe in a game with daychat keep the role determining ability and combine it with the action duplication.

[EvanManManMan]

The Enforcer change would end up preserving the mafia's better roles. I don't know how the selection of roles beforehand would work. I assume the enforcer decides which player gets the roles that already rolled. The role swapping though just allows scum to preserve their strong roles and let the weak ones die, which gives them an advantage they shouldn't have. Scum should have to work around having strong PRs die and place strategy into preserving certain players. Enforcer has no purpose outside of taking a layer of strategy out if the game, which is not something the game needs.

A much better change for enforcer would be to pick a mafia target and a non mafia target and functioning as a redirector, making all actions against the mafia member target the non mafia member. It can also be nonconsecutive if needed for balance purposes. A redirector that opens day chat is a fitting mafia head role. That allows foe investigative calamity and much more strategy than both of the previous Enforcers have.

Adding Tracker, Botanist, Traitor and Parity Cop are fine changes. Strongman can be very iffy and I agree with what Ice said on that.

Veteran never needed to be changed and should be reverted.

Lookout should have the ability to directly see players again. The alternation between eyes and ears is cool, but maybe for eyes show a single player name and for ears show the number of players. Showing the types of actions used doesn't serve much of a purpose except forcing certain scum inti certain fake claims. Seeing a single person gives lookout more practical use than theoritical use, which I feel is how a tactical role like lookout should work.

Silent transportations are a no, nonconsecutive is fine.

Marshal change was extremely unnecessary and should be reverted.

[Metrion]

TFW I didn't like these changes.

[xUltiix]

Transporter and Lookout will no longer be appearing in any game I run because the changes to those are absolute trash
Veteran meh, it’s alright
Enforcer change will need to be actually tested first
Marshal is now really strong
New roles are fine

[RAmcius]

Vet should be removed as a role tbh, 12B was a good meme, killed 2 town PRs and arso, cause we were smart enough not to run into it, well, my latest experience with vet was NFM55, only casualty was lookout...

All guilties in Ep XIV were because of huge scum misplays - killing obv cit N2, just because Gobln replaced in that slot, rb doc, send cit claimed maf to attack own gf, who's fakeclaiming doc N3, what can go wrong with outed lookout in play? and N6 was direct outcome of D3 massclaim, which was forced by scum. Who forces massclaim with 4 dead cits and almost all PRs still alive? Also, Ice, don't bash them for not using disg, they tried, Mel just told them it doesn't work against lookout (that was discussed after game ended in discord)

That said, where disg changes? It's really pointless role

[ladd]

idrc either way for the marshal, transporter and vet changes.

agreed that the Lookout should not be called lookout anymore cause it's really not and it just adds to the confusion. It's not really a nerf but more like a complete removal of the lookout role and substitution with another completely different role, which is fine if that was the intention. If i was town i'd vastly prefer having a sheriff or an investigator roll in TI rather than this new role personally, but we can just test it out and see how it works.

I like the Enforcer, worth a try.

As for the new additions:

- tracker and PC are fine

- I don't like lost wolves, traitors, etc... but that's probably just a personal preference

- botanist was voted, so sure

As an aside, I like this idea of having patches. gl

[SirCakez]

I don't even see what's wrong with the base lookout role. Watcher is a pretty standard Mafia role.
Transporter w/o notifications is on MS but it's really rare, called Bus Driver. Usually has limited shots. Could work I suppose.

[ManateeDude]

IMO Lookout shouldn't be changed, Lookout can carry a lot of utility if you use it correctly, but can be useless if not, this new version won't do very much to actually contribute.

Traitor and botanist are a p-cool roles

Veteran has now become 10× more powerful, I don't like it

Transporter will work a lot better and better much less confirmable.

Enforcer seems pretty useless imo

Didn't check Marshal tbh

Also the rolecards say traitor is Mafia Goon despite being under the espionage category.

[xUltiix]

The new lookout role sucks and thats why I won't be using it due to swing
If a role is significantly better than another in an alignment without unique characteristics such as only one can be in the game etc, it's way too swingy
Sheriff is far better than this new lookout and so is tracker, investigator, etc

[Varanus]

Marshal- Congratulations, you've taken the least powerful town protective role and made it the most powerful one. Now even with a roleblocker mafia can't easily break past a protective to kill another player. Just remove self heal and self vest if you want to balance them out.

LUL
JUST RB THE PERSON YOU'RE KILLING YOU SHITTER

[Varanus]

The Enforcer change would end up preserving the mafia's better roles. I don't know how the selection of roles beforehand would work. I assume the enforcer decides which player gets the roles that already rolled. The role swapping though just allows scum to preserve their strong roles and let the weak ones die, which gives them an advantage they shouldn't have. Scum should have to work around having strong PRs die and place strategy into preserving certain players. Enforcer has no purpose outside of taking a layer of strategy out if the game, which is not something the game needs.

I'm not interested in a "layer of strategy" that is having to keep a shitter like andilin alive instead of myself because he rolled consort when I roll framer

[ICECLIMBERS]

Marshal- Congratulations, you've taken the least powerful town protective role and made it the most powerful one. Now even with a roleblocker mafia can't easily break past a protective to kill another player. Just remove self heal and self vest if you want to balance them out.

LUL
JUST RB THE PERSON YOU'RE KILLING YOU SHITTER

[UzayAltay]

How can I Find patch Notes ?

[UzayAltay]

My Comments :

New Roles are Okay for Now , at least If they are bad , they can tested and Eleminated .
Transporter change seems bad .
Marshall seems balanced .
Is this veteran nerf needed ? I think no .
Lookout was balanced I think .
Enforcer , we need to see it in the game I think .

[xUltiix]

Better idea than dropping them: I'll just use the old versions of the roles for my games
Nothing except the episode actually has to follow these rolecards

[chitownmvp01]

Transporter and Lookout will no longer be appearing in any game I run because the changes to those are absolute trash
Veteran meh, it’s alright
Enforcer change will need to be actually tested first
Marshal is now really strong
New roles are fine

You're not required to use the changes, Schultz explicitly said this in the announcements thread. You can still use the old versions of the roles.

Veteran-I don't like the change. It decreases the amount of skill needed to play the role. With 3 alerts that you can use any time, you need to put more thought into predicting whether scum will visit you or not. Now Veterans can alternate nights they alert throughout the game and can become confirmed very easily. As ICE said, if they get visited N1 while on alert, they need protection N2, then they can alert N3, and so on, especially if there is no Witch.

Transporter-Meh, I don't really care about this change. It would be interesting to see scum fakeclaim it to get a ML in LyLo when a Sheriff claims a red result. With silent transports, I expect to see scum fakeclaiming Transporter more often.

Marshal-I don't think it needs to be stronger, no please. At least it's not way overpowered though.

Lookout-I didn't think the old version was bad. I would like the new version to be its own role though, keeping the old version alive as well.

Enforcer-I agree with xUltiix, I would like to see it tested. The new version rolling with Capo doesn't appeal to me though.

[Varanus]

Marshal is absurdly weak right now, and it needed a buff
I still don't think this will be enough to make it any stronger

[Exacerbated]

The Veteran's strength isn't that it's easily confirmed; that is just a bonus.

The strength of the Veteran is that it doesn't even have to be in the game for it to have a pronounced effect on scum decision making. The mere possibility of its existence forces scum to carefully evaluate how they plan out their kill patterns, which increases the likelihood of them making a game losing mistake.

Also, the mere fact that the alert is one of the highest priority actions in the game means that its survival is near guaranteed, which allows a skilled player to stay alive longer to influence the game.

A skilled Veteran can easily abuse this, creating a conundrum: do I let the skilled Veteran be, and let them mobilize the Town to our defeat, or do I risk blowing my own head off, which also greatly reduces our chances of winning? A Town casualty hurts, but a Mafia or NK casualty is, at a bare minimum, 1 for 0 trade. The Veteran would have to kill on average 3 townies to offset any benefit from killing 1 scum.

It allows the skilled player to have absurd amounts of leverage into conditioning the Mafia/NK into behaving in ways that the Veteran wants, whether the Veteran's identity is hidden or revealed. Pretty much no other role in the game has the power to do this, or at the very least, to this extent.

This change is excellent because it doesn't reduce its gravitas as a "Town Power" while nerfing the most unhealthy and abusive aspects of the role.

[Exacerbated]

Another thing I forgot to mention is that the new Veteran rolecard gears it to what it was intended to do: a focus on "baiting" the enemy into visiting it.

The old Veteran would just frontload most of their alerts Nights 1-3 and just strongarm the town.

[ICECLIMBERS]

The old Veteran would just frontload most of their alerts Nights 1-3 and just strongarm the town.

This almost never happens.

Edit: It sort of did in 11G since the veteran was one of the most active town players and shot 3 scum N1 but scum had larger threats than the veteran. You're assuming that the veteran is a town leader who is pointing fingers at all of scum. With ideal play then it's a threat, but reality is not ideal.

[ICECLIMBERS]

The ideal play of a cop in a vanilla 9p game is to avoid getting nightkilled and check scum every night. That doesn't make cop in that setup unbalanced.

If you want to nerf veteran then do something like giving it 2 alerts. As I mentioned in the OP the overhaul punishes good play. It's not like a veteran shooting scum is a common ocurrence anyawys. This is like nerfing doctor by making it nonconsecutive and telling the mafia who the doctor is. The difference is that none of the mafia die.

Also I made a mistake in the OP. I glossed over 13F since it was canned. That's the most recent game on site where a veteran shot somebody.

[Varanus]

The reward veteran gets for shooting scum is that it killed scum
It's already an ungodly level of powerful when it does that

This doesn't punish good play
It makes it not be as brokenly strong as it was before

[Schultz128]

Reminder that these aren't changes that are going to be forced out, but are my modest proposal.

Definitely open to suggestions based on the community's majority decision.

[polypies73]

If you're going to change LO like that make it an entirely different role.

[Metrion]

The reward veteran gets for shooting scum is that it killed scum
It's already an ungodly level of powerful when it does that

This doesn't punish good play
It makes it not be as brokenly strong as it was before

You get shot the next night unless you reveal. So yes it does punish good play compared to the charged-based Veteran.