Mandatory WotC

[K1llthestory]

okay i understand that it hasnt been brought up as an issue before. that is a reasonable argument. however, you must admit that if i were to report andilin, he wouldnt really have broken any rules, so he wouldnt need to be punished. how do you punish a person like andilin?

[parkerparkour]

the issue is you are approaching this as if the only ways to make someone unbearable to play with can be immediately punished/you can rely on the mods actually punishing them

you can be an asshole without harassing enough people to warrant a warning, you can flake but not enough to warrant being kicked out by the host

i dont see why it's necessary to have hosts/mods directly involved in the process nor why you are taking it so personally

[Gobln]

Gent literally crumbling right now LOL

[TrueGent]

okay i understand that it hasnt been brought up as an issue before. that is a reasonable argument. however, you must admit that if i were to report andilin, he wouldnt really have broken any rules, so he wouldnt need to be punished. how do you punish a person like andilin?

If a player is brought up to the mod team as being an issue, that gives us leeway in actually warning them for being an issue and attempting to kerb said behaviour. It gives us ground to stand on when punishing said player, because we can't just roll up post game and go "lmao ur warned now because we felt like it glgl" if none of the players actually felt like the game was impacted negatively.

[TrueGent]

the issue is you are approaching this as if the only ways to make someone unbearable to play with can be immediately punished/you can rely on the mods actually punishing them

you can be an asshole without harassing enough people to warrant a warning, you can flake but not enough to warrant being kicked out by the host

i dont see why it's necessary to have hosts/mods directly involved in the process nor why you are taking it so personally

No I'm not.
If a player is making the game unfun for other players, for whatever reason, either something there is warnable or the receiving players are taking something too personally. I don't consider many players here to be in the latter category and even if they are, chances are the offending party still needs to at the bare minimum be unoffically warned.

What makes something warnable is at the end of the day up to the players, within reason of course. I'm not here to decide what you consider unfun or what you consider gamethrowing. I can't do shit about your issues if I don't know about them.

If some players here had their way, every game would be 9p Cop with the same 9 players and thats because most people on this site are self-centered and/or stupid.

[parkerparkour]

the issue is you're the not the only mod and you're also on semi-hiatus, you've dealt with mod hell on a personal basis and pretty much roasted your whole team on several occasions, you should know how understandably leery people would be of approaching them with cases that arent open and shut or in-the-moment drama and harassment in a game

ALSO jammy/milte types are slow burn which is a lot less harder to handle than someone like pre-humanized understood

[ryanyb]

I think some of the fustration about reporting to mods, @tg, is that clearly the mods see it, play in games with it, and for those active in the discord, hear public rants there about it. There becomes a point where the burden is no longer on the players to report but rather the mods to see and react. If I was hosting a game that no mods were in or watching then I’d report it. If I was hosting a game with a mod in it, I would figure obvious incidents would be dealt with. If I’m hosting a game and a mod is reading the game, I assume the same. Yes you are moderators of this forum but you’re also players. The things that irritate you irritate us; and we see repeated flaking/slitting around the rules and mods don’t interfere because ‘they don’t realize it’s happening/that fusterating’ all I can say is bullshit. Yes we could do better about reporting, but sometimes you should treat someone saying to you or pming you ‘I can’t fucking believe Milte is falling again’ as a report. This is a fucking mafia forum board not some unnecessarily strict and organized company. You shouldn’t need formal reports from players. General note to mods, stop treating this forum like more than it actually is. It’s a community and the obsession with over-professionalism kills wim to play and engage here.

[ryanyb]

Yes we could do better about reporting but the necessity of a formal report imo is already problematic.

[ryanyb]

IF this was a forum board of 1k players or more, maybe the formal report would be necessary but we all know each other more or less, we see the shit that happens, and the community is small. There’s nothing wrong with that, but the forced beaurocracy feels stale and unnecessary.

[Alzar]

its not an fm game you dont need to triple post

people talk shit about each other all the time man idk, i think it's a good point that if people want mod action taken they have to take the first steps themselves, like this thread being posted in the first place rather than just ranting about it in the background

[TrueGent]

the issue is you're the not the only mod and you're also on semi-hiatus, you've dealt with mod hell on a personal basis and pretty much roasted your whole team on several occasions, you should know how understandably leery people would be of approaching them with cases that arent open and shut or in-the-moment drama and harassment in a game

ALSO jammy/milte types are slow burn which is a lot less harder to handle than someone like pre-humanized understood

The mod teams issue is inactivity, I've rarely had issues with their collective punishment decisions.
And not really.

I think some of the fustration about reporting to mods, @tg, is that clearly the mods see it, play in games with it, and for those active in the discord, hear public rants there about it. There becomes a point where the burden is no longer on the players to report but rather the mods to see and react. If I was hosting a game that no mods were in or watching then I’d report it. If I was hosting a game with a mod in it, I would figure obvious incidents would be dealt with. If I’m hosting a game and a mod is reading the game, I assume the same. Yes you are moderators of this forum but you’re also players. The things that irritate you irritate us; and we see repeated flaking/slitting around the rules and mods don’t interfere because ‘they don’t realize it’s happening/that fusterating’ all I can say is bullshit. Yes we could do better about reporting, but sometimes you should treat someone saying to you or pming you ‘I can’t fucking believe Milte is falling again’ as a report. This is a fucking mafia forum board not some unnecessarily strict and organized company. You shouldn’t need formal reports from players. General note to mods, stop treating this forum like more than it actually is. It’s a community and the obsession with over-professionalism kills wim to play and engage here.

I'm not asking for a formal report with quotes and citations, I'm asking that instead of bitching in a chatroom you actually come to a mod and say "Hey x/y/z is an issue, can you deal with it?" Because whilst I can't speak for the other mods, I bitch about people all the time but I don't always want them punished and I don't feel comfortable initiating punishment on edge cases, I think I've only done twice ever and thats because they were situations that really pissed me off. If I know people want something to be done about a situation I personally feel much more comfortable dealing with it.

[chitownmvp01]

How do you define flaking? How do you define gamethrowing?
Are we supposed to use our own judgement? What if our view is not the same as the players involved in the game? Do we ignore them?
I cannot read the minds of my players and if they are unwilling to tell me when they find a player problematic that is not my problem.

flaking = excessive replacements
gamethrowing = going against your win con.

these are semantics that have been talked to death, and if you really have trouble identifying them, then i honestly have no words.

How do you define excessive? At what point do you deem a number excessive? Are justified replacements taken into account here?
What constitutes going against your wincon? Is self hammering gamethrowing? Shooting at a member of your own mafia? Trying to lynch Ladd D1?

I am not here to deem what my players find acceptable. I am here to ensure that my games run smoothly and as I plan, if you don't want to tell me if you think my game isn't running smoothly then it is not my job to find that information from you.

There are already rules in place for excessive replacements (4 and 5 of the Replacment/Joining rules). Perhaps they can be made more strict?

How do you define flaking? How do you define gamethrowing?
Are we supposed to use our own judgement? What if our view is not the same as the players involved in the game? Do we ignore them?
I cannot read the minds of my players and if they are unwilling to tell me when they find a player problematic that is not my problem.

flaking = excessive replacements
gamethrowing = going against your win con.

these are semantics that have been talked to death, and if you really have trouble identifying them, then i honestly have no words.

Gamethrowing also requires intent. On the final day of 12F, everyone except xUltiix the SK was Sheriff cleared, but xUltiix successfully convinced the town that Schultz and I gamethrew and won the game as a result. The remaining town was fooled into not thinking the obvious, but clearly didn't intentionally go against the town wincon.

Mandatory WoTC just gives an open gate to kick players out of a game because xdxd you're bad, and I don't think that's unbiased or fair. Everyone deserves the chance to play; if they're a shit in the process, then there's grounds to take action.

So andilin deserves the chance to continue to troll? Just wait for when he rolls Town Power and costs town the game with his trolling.

[TrueGent]

"Yo gent (x) has been super inactive in x/y/z and its kinda really dumb can you bring it up in mod chat"
^this is really all I want, this is what turns mindless bitching in FMZone into an actual issue you want solved

[TrueGent]

Mandatory WoTC just gives an open gate to kick players out of a game because xdxd you're bad, and I don't think that's unbiased or fair. Everyone deserves the chance to play; if they're a shit in the process, then there's grounds to take action.

So andilin deserves the chance to continue to troll? Just wait for when he rolls Town Power and costs town the game with his trolling.

Continue implies its happened before so why have I never received an actual complaint about andilin that wasn't in the form of mindless bitching?

[NesMettaur]

I'll admit I was under the impression that it was the host's job to report these things, since after all they're the ones that have to run prod timers and ultimately oversee everything that happens during a game.

If the onus falls on players to bring these things up I'm fine with that, but that needs to be established much more clearly- and even then I feel like hosts should still take some responsibility in filing the reports for the sake of future games, too.

[parkerparkour]

my main issue is that i do not feel comfortable just pointing out an issue and having it thrown under the rug yet again because the rules are clearly defined and it does not break them, i feel that mods should enforce by the rules and players should have at least some power over issues that are not

its not my problem that mods are incapable of doing their job without it being thrust under their nose, it is my problem to make my and most players game not be thrown or unenjoyable at the expense of one flakey boi and this seems the fairest way to do so

[TrueGent]

If you think we start every complaint discussion with "does this break any rules" and we completely dismiss it if it doesn't then you have missed the point entirely.
I could start warning people for every instance of rulebreaking that exists and by next week we would have about 3 players left that aren't blacklisted, because at the end of the day slight rulebreaking is allowed as long as the players involved don't care, and if they aren't communicating the fact that they DO care to me, who am I to say that they should care?

[chitownmvp01]

Mandatory WoTC just gives an open gate to kick players out of a game because xdxd you're bad, and I don't think that's unbiased or fair. Everyone deserves the chance to play; if they're a shit in the process, then there's grounds to take action.

So andilin deserves the chance to continue to troll? Just wait for when he rolls Town Power and costs town the game with his trolling.

Continue implies its happened before so why have I never received an actual complaint about andilin that wasn't in the form of mindless bitching?

Do hosts not read their own games? I may have complained once to one of the mods a long time ago. I don't remember. But I have complained in the game thread and asked him to stop multiple times only to get no favorable results.

If you think we start every complaint discussion with "does this break any rules" and we completely dismiss it if it doesn't then you have missed the point entirely.
I could start warning people for every instance of rulebreaking that exists and by next week we would have about 3 players left that aren't blacklisted, because at the end of the day slight rulebreaking is allowed as long as the players involved don't care, and if they aren't communicating the fact that they DO care to me, who am I to say that they should care?

Well the rules are the rules. Complaints or no complaints shouldn't affect whether the rules are enforced or not imo.

[TrueGent]

Mandatory WoTC just gives an open gate to kick players out of a game because xdxd you're bad, and I don't think that's unbiased or fair. Everyone deserves the chance to play; if they're a shit in the process, then there's grounds to take action.

So andilin deserves the chance to continue to troll? Just wait for when he rolls Town Power and costs town the game with his trolling.

Continue implies its happened before so why have I never received an actual complaint about andilin that wasn't in the form of mindless bitching?

Do hosts not read their own games? I may have complained once to one of the mods a long time ago. I don't remember. But I have complained in the game thread and asked him to stop multiple times only to get no favorable results.

If you think we start every complaint discussion with "does this break any rules" and we completely dismiss it if it doesn't then you have missed the point entirely.
I could start warning people for every instance of rulebreaking that exists and by next week we would have about 3 players left that aren't blacklisted, because at the end of the day slight rulebreaking is allowed as long as the players involved don't care, and if they aren't communicating the fact that they DO care to me, who am I to say that they should care?

Well the rules are the rules. Complaints or no complaints shouldn't affect whether the rules are enforced or not imo.

Personally, not really, I don't generally keep up with whats happening in my game, especially if I'm doing vote counts.

Then you have completely missed my point.

[Gobln]

Okay, Gent. Lay it out for us. Make it easy and clear for us.

Give us a form that we can fill out and use to report a player. And how many reports are needed before that player gets blacklisted/banned/suspended/whatever?

I'll gladly go back and read games, but just set it up so I'm not wasting my time here.

[TrueGent]

Okay, Gent. Lay it out for us. Make it easy and clear for us.

Give us a form that we can fill out and use to report a player. And how many reports are needed before that player gets blacklisted/banned/suspended/whatever?

I'll gladly go back and read games, but just set it up so I'm not wasting my time here.

You don't need a form, all you need to do is let us know if you truly have an issue with someone.
The standard would remain the same, 3 official warnings for a blacklist.

[Gobln]

Okay, Gent. Lay it out for us. Make it easy and clear for us.

Give us a form that we can fill out and use to report a player. And how many reports are needed before that player gets blacklisted/banned/suspended/whatever?

I'll gladly go back and read games, but just set it up so I'm not wasting my time here.

You don't need a form, all you need to do is let us know if you truly have an issue with someone.
The standard would remain the same, 3 official warnings for a blacklist.

I need a form. Give me a form.

[Schultz128]

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[milte345]

oboi i love sparking a firestorm cause i'm shit

[milte345]

Where