PSA: Angleshooting and You

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PSA: Angleshooting and You

Postby CatgirlMaple » Sun Jun 18, 2017 12:53 pm

What is Angleshooting?
Angleshooting is when a player breaks the spirit of the rules without explicitly violating them, or when a player attempts to use out-of-game knowledge to influence the game, in order to gain an edge in the game. This includes referencing private messages to the moderator to seem more legitimate, using a replacement as an argument, or "trust tells" -- among other things. Just because there isn't a rule against something, doesn't mean it isn't against the rules.

Why is Angleshooting Against the Rules?
Angleshooting degenerates the quality of a game whenever it is allowed to pass. If someone is allowed to angleshoot, players are allowed to angleshoot the angleshoot, etc. The below example will illustrate this.

    Mantichora is lurking and says "my sister is sick so I won't be active today". During the game, Mantichora makes a few posts, but all of them are of low quality. TheCow accuses Mantichora of being a wolf because of this.
    Mantichora replies by saying, "what, you saying I'm lying about my sister? You can't call me scum, its because my sister is sick."
    After this, TheCow replies saying, "I don't believe that your sister is sick, post proof." At this point, a moderator intervenes.
In the above example, who is angleshooting? First, TheCow is. He is demanding that a player use out-of-game information to defend himself. This is pretty clear cut. However, in the first place, Mantichora is also angleshooting. By defending himself with the out-of-game argument, he is inviting players to question it -- Mantichora is the first person to bring this out of game information into the game. You could describe the situation as such: TheCow scumreads Mantichora, Mantichora attempts to angleshoot, TheCow angleshoots the angleshoot.

Preventing Angleshooting
Rule of thumb: if you think something is against the rules or MIGHT be KINDA against the rules, just don't do it. If you think a player is breaking the rules, don't push that in the game thread. PM the game's mod and have the moderator deal with it. Remember: nothing inside of the game affects things outside the game, and vice versa.
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Re: PSA: Angleshooting and You

Postby TheCow » Sun Jun 18, 2017 1:13 pm

A very insightful and informative article. Good work!
Last edited by Metrion on Sun Jun 18, 2017 7:25 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: angleshooting irl
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Re: PSA: Angleshooting and You

Postby chitownmvp01 » Sun Jun 18, 2017 1:13 pm

TheCow wrote:A very insightful and informative article. Good work!


Agreed, lol.
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Re: PSA: Angleshooting and You

Postby TrueGent » Sun Jun 18, 2017 1:18 pm

SeemsGood Thanks user TheCow SeemsGood
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Re: PSA: Angleshooting and You

Postby UNDERSTOOD12345 » Sun Jun 18, 2017 1:34 pm

My problem with rules banning angleshoot imo is that people can always not DISCUSS it but people can never UNFORGET it. Just like in a courtroom, for example, when an attorney may "strike" something off the record for being against procedure, it technically does not exist, but it never leaves a jury's hearts. I feel like banning angleshooting makes it so people who may have angly dirt on someone forced to scumread them and make up bullshit reasons why. Just my two cents.
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Re: PSA: Angleshooting and You

Postby TrueGent » Sun Jun 18, 2017 1:36 pm

There is never a time where angleshooting is a legitimate reason to scumread someone.
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Re: PSA: Angleshooting and You

Postby FMLSheWas12 » Sun Jun 18, 2017 2:48 pm

Aha! This is all the evidence I need to prove you're making angleshooting discussion threads instead of posting content in our forum mafia game, checkmate scum see you in the graveyard.
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Re: PSA: Angleshooting and You

Postby mdb1023 » Sun Jun 18, 2017 3:02 pm

Good post and very informative. However, as someone who has a very busy life but also enjoys FM, I find that letting people know why I may be less active at a certain point prevents me from getting bitched at to be more active.
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Re: PSA: Angleshooting and You

Postby TheCow » Sun Jun 18, 2017 3:18 pm

mdb1023 wrote:Good post and very informative. However, as someone who has a very busy life but also enjoys FM, I find that letting people know why I may be less active at a certain point prevents me from getting bitched at to be more active.

That's completely fine to do, but you can't use the out-of-game shit become in-game shit. Whether or not you lay slank cover is irrelevant to your slot's alignment.
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Re: PSA: Angleshooting and You

Postby UNDERSTOOD12345 » Sun Jun 18, 2017 5:02 pm

TrueGent wrote:There is never a time where angleshooting is a legitimate reason to scumread someone.


Yes there is, it's just not legal !
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Re: PSA: Angleshooting and You

Postby TrueGent » Sun Jun 18, 2017 5:24 pm

UNDERSTOOD12345 wrote:
TrueGent wrote:There is never a time where angleshooting is a legitimate reason to scumread someone.


Yes there is, it's just not legal !

No there isn't
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Re: PSA: Angleshooting and You

Postby UNDERSTOOD12345 » Sun Jun 18, 2017 5:28 pm

TrueGent wrote:
UNDERSTOOD12345 wrote:
TrueGent wrote:There is never a time where angleshooting is a legitimate reason to scumread someone.


Yes there is, it's just not legal !

No there isn't


Well, let's say I know someone playing, and they say they were sick but I saw them at work today. I can know they are lying/scum, so I scumread them.
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Re: PSA: Angleshooting and You

Postby TrueGent » Sun Jun 18, 2017 5:31 pm

Thats an extreme example that would never happen in an actual game.
If you are using angleshooting as a reason to scumread someone then you are objectively playing mafia wrong.
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Re: PSA: Angleshooting and You

Postby mdb1023 » Sun Jun 18, 2017 5:31 pm

UNDERSTOOD12345 wrote:
TrueGent wrote:
UNDERSTOOD12345 wrote:
TrueGent wrote:There is never a time where angleshooting is a legitimate reason to scumread someone.


Yes there is, it's just not legal !

No there isn't


Well, let's say I know someone playing, and they say they were sick but I saw them at work today. I can know they are lying/scum, so I scumread them.

In what situation would you use that? Idk about you but I don't play FM with anyone I know IRL unless I can convince my future roommate to join, and even then I would be iffy about doing FM with him.
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Re: PSA: Angleshooting and You

Postby CatgirlMaple » Sun Jun 18, 2017 6:40 pm

Please stay on topic. If you are going to debate, please do so in PMs. I don't want my thread to be spammed.
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Re: PSA: Angleshooting and You

Postby CatgirlMaple » Sun Jun 18, 2017 6:41 pm

UNDERSTOOD12345 wrote:
TrueGent wrote:
UNDERSTOOD12345 wrote:
TrueGent wrote:There is never a time where angleshooting is a legitimate reason to scumread someone.


Yes there is, it's just not legal !

No there isn't


Well, let's say I know someone playing, and they say they were sick but I saw them at work today. I can know they are lying/scum, so I scumread them.

If this were to happen, you should tell the mod that the integrity of the game has been compromised and that you require a replacement. This would be the same as a player accidentally PMing their role card to you and would be treated in the same manner.
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Re: PSA: Angleshooting and You

Postby UNDERSTOOD12345 » Sun Jun 18, 2017 6:44 pm

So anything like that, even less severe? Like If I saw them on discord but they said their phone and computer had broke...

I have to REPLACE because I accidentally caught them in their lie?
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Re: PSA: Angleshooting and You

Postby CatgirlMaple » Sun Jun 18, 2017 6:50 pm

UNDERSTOOD12345 wrote:So anything like that, even less severe? Like If I saw them on discord but they said their phone and computer had broke...

I have to REPLACE because I accidentally caught them in their lie?

If someone said their computer and phone broke, how would they post that in the thread

A good idea here would be to go to the MU discord and ask those guys about their opinions on angleshooting. They have strong opinions and would be able to explain it for you.
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Re: PSA: Angleshooting and You

Postby UNDERSTOOD12345 » Sun Jun 18, 2017 6:52 pm

CatgirlMaple wrote:
UNDERSTOOD12345 wrote:So anything like that, even less severe? Like If I saw them on discord but they said their phone and computer had broke...

I have to REPLACE because I accidentally caught them in their lie?

If someone said their computer and phone broke, how would they post that in the thread

A good idea here would be to go to the MU discord and ask those guys about their opinions on angleshooting. They have strong opinions and would be able to explain it for you.


"My phone broke for the last 5 days, that's why I could not post"

Me *sees them on discord for last 5 days*
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Re: PSA: Angleshooting and You

Postby TalkingDirty » Sun Jun 18, 2017 7:18 pm

In NFM 42, I said I'd be at work, then a wagon on me was forming while I was at work. If I hadn't gotten on the forums to check the game thread during a time at which I was idle, I would have been mislynched before the end of my shift and I wouldn't have been able to stop it. Is OP saying it was wrong of me to say I would be at work?? I told everyone when I'd be back on, but continued to get voted by town and scum alike.
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Re: PSA: Angleshooting and You

Postby James2 » Sun Jun 18, 2017 7:25 pm

The danger of autism with this rule is too great, so it needs to be refined. A better ruleset would be:

1. Players are not permitted to lie about out-of-game circumstances.
2. Players are not allowed to accuse others of violating rule 1, to anyone other than the moderator.
3. Players who violate rules 1 or 2 will be modkilled.

At present, this has too many ridiculous implications, like saying "I'm sick and can't post as much" being against the rules.
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Re: PSA: Angleshooting and You

Postby CatgirlMaple » Sun Jun 18, 2017 7:33 pm

This isn't me posting a rule, this is me explaining a word.
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Re: PSA: Angleshooting and You

Postby TalkingDirty » Sun Jun 18, 2017 7:36 pm

CatgirlMaple wrote:This isn't me posting a rule, this is me explaining a word.

Look at my post and explain it with regards to my post.
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Re: PSA: Angleshooting and You

Postby Alzar » Sun Jun 18, 2017 8:02 pm

TalkingDirty wrote:In NFM 42, I said I'd be at work, then a wagon on me was forming while I was at work. If I hadn't gotten on the forums to check the game thread during a time at which I was idle, I would have been mislynched before the end of my shift and I wouldn't have been able to stop it. Is OP saying it was wrong of me to say I would be at work?? I told everyone when I'd be back on, but continued to get voted by town and scum alike.

there's nothing wrong with saying you're going to be afk for some amount of time as an explanation, but if you're going to be using it as a defence like "i couldn't have been scum, i was at work for the entire day for x reason" that applies under bringing out of game circumstances into in-game reasoning
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Re: PSA: Angleshooting and You

Postby Schultz128 » Sun Jun 18, 2017 8:09 pm

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